6s or 7s

[Guest cookoff013]

You mean if duck then use steel and would say 4 or 5...

 

36g #2 is an uncompromising duck load, due to the density go up 2 shotsizes to get a like for like pellet weight and and extra one size to overcome the ballistic inneficiencies of steel (sub 1500fps loads.) ie go up 3 sizes.

This season I've been using 32g no6 rc sipes ( think they are 5.5 in our size) noticed far far less runners and much more folded birds. I'm very happy with them

 

would you ever try a solid english 5? slightyle better than a #5.1, but not as good as a #4.9 .

 

the point i`m getting is half shotsizes are a joke, shot naturally has multiple sizes...

[old'un]

36g #2 is an uncompromising duck load, due to the density go up 2 shotsizes to get a like for like pellet weight and and extra one size to overcome the ballistic inneficiencies of steel (sub 1500fps loads.) ie go up 3 sizes.

 

would you ever try a solid english 5? slightyle better than a #5.1, but not as good as a #4.9 .

 

the point i`m getting is half shotsizes are a joke, shot naturally has multiple sizes...

Good point

 

Remember reading an article in the Shooting Times (1970s) by Geoffrey Boothroyd, he advocated using a mix of shot sizes in the same cartridge 5s, 6s, 7s, his argument was the string pattern was better, he did some practical field trials to prove his point and from what I can remember they worked well on all quarry, he also went on to say that distorted/crushed shot that you get with felt-wad cartridges gave a better pattern.

[wymberley]

Good point

 

Remember reading an article in the Shooting Times (1970s) by Geoffrey Boothroyd, he advocated using a mix of shot sizes in the same cartridge 5s, 6s, 7s, his argument was the string pattern was better, he did some practical field trials to prove his point and from what I can remember they worked well on all quarry, he also went on to say that distorted/crushed shot that you get with felt-wad cartridges gave a better pattern.

I'm sorry, and I have no wish to put words in Cookoff's mouth, but I think you've misunderstood what he's getting at - at least from the way I read his post.

 

I believe Boothroyd was right in both his theories quoted, but only if applied to those who otherwise would have missed the target and/or accepted a high degree of wounded but downed birds as being acceptable.

[bakerboy]

Eley 7's out of 410 and Gamebore 7.5 diamond (6.5) out of 12 bore

 

If I am on target, not a lot gets away or left flapping.

 

410 dropped a crow 2no 12 bores missed with both barrels last weekend.........

was that the shot or the shooter?

[old'un]

I'm sorry, and I have no wish to put words in Cookoff's mouth, but I think you've misunderstood what he's getting at - at least from the way I read his post.

 

I believe Boothroyd was right in both his theories quoted, but only if applied to those who otherwise would have missed the target and/or accepted a high degree of wounded but downed birds as being acceptable.

It was more about the last part of Cookoff's post that made me think of the difference in shot size and the article by Boothroyd.

 

Not sure what you are saying here? will get more kills with his theory......or you will get more pricked birds?

I am no ballistic expert so cannot comment on the subject, apart from the fact of reading and remembering the article.

[ChrisPCarter]

You mean if duck then use steel and would say 4 or 5...

The law is slightly different in Scotland, I think you only have to use steel over wetlands/foreshore? Unlike England and Wales where it's illegal to use lead on ducks anywhere.

[wymberley]

It was more about the last part of Cookoff's post that made me think of the difference in shot size and the article by Boothroyd.

 

Not sure what you are saying here? will get more kills with his theory......or you will get more pricked birds?

I am no ballistic expert so cannot comment on the subject, apart from the fact of reading and remembering the article.

Cookoff will know that I'm perfectly content to be corrected if wrong, but I read it that he was saying that as a matter of course the pellet size in any cartridge for any given shot size will vary. Me now, to a greater or lesser degree dependent upon quality.

 

The shot string at 40 metres for a conventional cartridge can have a total length of some 8 yards although the bulk of the pellets will be contained in a shorter length. This in spite of the fact that they were all pretty much of the same size and started off at the same speed. It is known that larger pellets retain energy and therefore velocity better than smaller ones. What length the string now with the 5s at the front, then the 6s with the 7s struggling to keep up? Yep, the string has 'improved' and is ideally suited to someone who has a tendency to miss in front. Unfortunately, even allowing for the fact that there are more pellets available than there would be if they were all #5s, the downside is that the pattern flying through the bird as it crosses is inevitably going to be less dense and arguably less dense than that required to kill cleanly.

 

With regard to the distorted/crushed shot, there is some merit to this, but it's necessary to consider that back when he was writing, what type of shooters were his target audience and what was the normal range at which they shot. Once the pellets have left the barrel and are at a distance where they stop interacting, the round ones will fly truer and faster. These will be at the front end of the shot string and more towards the pattern centre. These are they which the marksman relies upon. Some of the remainder will fill the proverbial 30" circle. At shorter ranges and for larger quarry species this may well be sufficient. However, it is not a 'blanket' effect. As it is well known that a shotgun pattern is more dense in the centre (with one possible exception) and then thins out to the edge, with the possible exception of larger targets and shorter ranges, there are insufficient of them to kill cleanly. This is particularly so in the case of smaller quarry where their size and the number of pellets striking them on average are insufficient in number to ensure that there are sufficient to do the job on each and every shot, ie we pigeon shooters.

 

Far better than faffing about with silly cartridges is to learn to shoot straight.

 

Edit: Spelling

Edited December 1, 2016 by wymberley

[Guest cookoff013]

Cookoff will know that I'm perfectly content to be corrected if wrong, but I read it that he was saying that as a matter of course the pellet size in any cartridge for any given shot size will vary. Me now, to a greater or lesser degree dependent upon quality.

 

The shot string at 40 metres for a conventional cartridge can have a total length of some 8 yards although the bulk of the pellets will be contained in a shorter length. This in spite of the fact that they were all pretty much of the same size and started off at the same speed. It is known that larger pellets retain energy and therefore velocity better than smaller ones. What length the string now with the 5s at the front, then the 6s with the 7s struggling to keep up? Yep, the string has 'improved' and is ideally suited to someone who has a tendency to miss in front. Unfortunately, even allowing for the fact that there are more pellets available than there would be if they were all #5s, the downside is that the pattern flying through the bird as it crosses is inevitably going to be less dense and arguably less dense than that required to kill cleanly.

 

With regard to the distorted/crushed shot, there is some merit to this, but it's necessary to consider that back when he was writing, what type of shooters were his target audience and what was the normal range at which they shot. Once the pellets have left the barrel and are at a distance where they stop interacting, the round ones will fly truer and faster. These will be at the front end of the shot string and more towards the pattern centre. These are they which the marksman relies upon. Some of the remainder will fill the proverbial 30" circle. At shorter ranges and for larger quarry species this may well be sufficient. However, it is not a 'blanket' effect. As it is well known that a shotgun pattern is more dense in the centre (with one possible exception) and then thins out to the edge, with the possible exception of larger targets and shorter ranges, there are insufficient of them to kill cleanly. This is particularly so in the case of smaller quarry where their size and the number of pellets striking them on average are insufficient in number to ensure that there are sufficient to do the job on each and every shot, ie we pigeon shooters.

 

Far better than faffing about with silly cartridges is to learn to shoot straight.

 

Edit: Spelling

 

bingo.

 

my point was that shotsizes vary per batch. #5.5 will contain on average as much #5, #5.5 and #6 shotsizes. where shooters expressly go for the "continental" shotsizes to be at some "advantage" is a moot point.

because why would anyone in theyre right mind select something so miniscule between #5.5 and #6 or #5 when its easily achievable with good solid #5 or exceeds the previous criteria. it is splitting hairs and the changes are less outstanding.

i love high quality cartridges. i love big old slow loads that put every pellet (and more) right on target. sometimes hard italian shot of special #0.5grading and high antimony lead with 1500fps is not the answer.

the rule of thumb is now faster is better, harder lead is used to keep patterns, special chokes are now used to keep patterns, special lead sizes are now used.

 

personally, 1200 is it for me as a pinicle. i`m a slight hipocryte to a certain degree. but i`d rather load up 400 pellets and hit a target with everyone, than load up 400pellets and hope, one hits home.

 

one should not be too dismisive of good high quality loadings, 1500fps is not the answer.

 

as for clay loads, i couldnt give a toss. a trillion fps - i dont care.

[Smokersmith]

This is not a rant at any one person ... but I need to share it ..

 

I really wish folks would put as much effort into getting their stance, gunmount, and technique right as they do with the constant discussion on choke, shot size, loading, bore etc, etc.

 

Most of the combinations discussed on here are perfectly lethal if one puts it in the right place ... and IMHO that is by far the biggest variable ....

 

Straight shooting to all !!

[Walker570]

I've used 30gm No7 through by 12 for our mixed Partridge and Pheasant days this year, I'll change to 32gm no6 from Christmas to the end of the season. Though improved Cylinder and Modified throughout.

 

Some of the guns on the Syndicate seem obsessed with heavier loads every year, two weeks ago one was using 34gm 5's and the other 36gm 5's. The shoot is in Essex and the birds aren't exactly sky scrapers. There was more than one cloud of feathers!

Our Shoot Captain actually told guns to not shoot birds too close at last Saturdays shoot as a number of birds were inedible. Have seen a few boxes of shells used on the shoot and don't altogether think it is close shooting although I did see such happen by a 'new boy' to the game. If I can kill pheasants at sensible ranges with 18grms from a 410 why does anyone think twice as many pellets will be better? Just learn to put the bird in the middle of the pattern.... go practise if you can't.

[Guest cookoff013]

Our Shoot Captain actually told guns to not shoot birds too close at last Saturdays shoot as a number of birds were inedible. Have seen a few boxes of shells used on the shoot and don't altogether think it is close shooting although I did see such happen by a 'new boy' to the game. If I can kill pheasants at sensible ranges with 18grms from a 410 why does anyone think twice as many pellets will be better? Just learn to put the bird in the middle of the pattern.... go practise if you can't.

 

The other point is, it is the gentlemens choice, what sporting shots to go for, and what to use.

 

no point in shooting 50gram loads at 20yarders, let alone 14gram .410 shells at 80yard screamers. (shirly the .410 has always been synonymus with high pheasent shoots )

 

This thread reminds me of someone who would buy 7s in steel because they can go wildfowling for a season with only £3.

[wymberley]

Our Shoot Captain actually told guns to not shoot birds too close at last Saturdays shoot as a number of birds were inedible. Have seen a few boxes of shells used on the shoot and don't altogether think it is close shooting although I did see such happen by a 'new boy' to the game. If I can kill pheasants at sensible ranges with 18grms from a 410 why does anyone think twice as many pellets will be better? Just learn to put the bird in the middle of the pattern.... go practise if you can't.

This can obviously be responsible for this irrespective of the range. However, as many locations now specify felt/fibre wads and if the manufacturers keep on upping the velocity and we continue believing that we need it upped and buy them, they'll up it even more to spite their competitors and we'll buy them as well - a vicious spiral. From what I've seen on a couple of recent pattern checks, I would imagine that before long this will be on the increase and it'll be nothing to do with either the weight of the load/size of the pellets or 'give it lore'.

[anser2]

No 6 in lead is a good all rounder for pheasants and partridges , but you will have to use non toxic shot for your ducks. You say your gun is full choke so that rules out steel, Tungsten is getting increasingly hard to get these days so that just leaves you Bismuth in the full choked gun if you are shooting in England or Wales.

[Uilleachan]

The law is slightly different in Scotland, I think you only have to use steel over wetlands/foreshore? Unlike England and Wales where it's illegal to use lead on ducks anywhere.

 

That's correct, lead can be used for wildfowl over non wetland ground, in Scotland.

[Big Al]

 

That's correct, lead can be used for wildfowl over non wetland ground, in Scotland.

And Northern Ireland too.

[dodeer]

I use 6.5 a lot for most birds. Pattern fails before penetration..

I use 6.5 a lot for most birds. Pattern fails before penetration..

[wymberley]

I use 6.5 a lot for most birds. Pattern fails before penetration..

 

Bit confused.

Are you saying that you use 6.5 because that avoids the perfectly true remark at your second sentence?

[GingerCat]

6/6.5/7 I find little difference out to 40 yards and I don't hit much past that so don't waste the shots.

If you go for 6.5 or 7 then you can use cyc choke and make life easier.