Brexit - Merged Threads

[JRDS]

If the EU was being set up as a new scheme and the basic rules were we pay them £12 Billion nett a year for them to run a huge trade deficit with us and on top of that we have to allow unlimited migration from a population of 500 million (with millions more from Muslim / Balkan countries waiting in the wings to join) and be responsible for their housing, welfare and health care would we join?

Not unless you were gaining from it personally, for the average working tax paying Pleb the EU has been a disaster.

Hence the vote.

 

 

Edited November 22, 2017 by JRDS

[12gauge82]

Here' another link http://www.civitas.org.uk/reports_articles/potential-post-brexit-tariff-costs-for-eu-uk-trade/

[12gauge82]

It showed we buy far more from them than they buy from us, we are one of the EUs biggest customers, if we walk away and do trade with Tue rest of the world due to the EUs unreasonable demands, which is the way it' going at the moment, on top of losing our membership fee, they are going to be in real trouble, I note the EU has also gone down against the pound recently, they'rein no position to be acting like they are and if they'renot careful I can see the EU imploding.

[anser2]

The exchange rate has daily variations , but it is not going down, rather the long term trend is for the £ to lose value against the euro. Yesterday it was 88P to the Euro and predicted to be 1£ equals a Euro early next year. As for trade 44% of the UKs imports go to the EU. If the EU loses trade with us they still have an internal  market of 450 million plus those countries they have trade deals with. What do we have, nothing concrete other than trade deals we may or may not  get in the future that will take years to sort out. 

Edited November 22, 2017 by anser2

[poontang]

8 hours ago, Granett said:

 

"Absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the Single Market" - Daniel Hannan MEP

"Only a madman would actually leave the Market" - Owen Paterson MP, Vote Leave backer

"Wouldn't it be terrible if we were really like Norway and Switzerland? Really? They're rich. They're happy. They're self-governing" - Nigel Farage, Ukip leader

"The Norwegian option, the EEA option, I think that it might be initially attractive for some business people" - Matthew Elliot, Vote Leave chief executive

"Increasingly, the Norway option looks the best for the UK" - Arron Banks, Leave.EU founder

These 'quotes' were taken deliberately out of context and used by Nick Cleggs Open Britain group.

Here's his former director of communications trying (and failing miserably) to justify himself and the video.

It's a fantastic watch... I'm sure you'll enjoy it.   

 

 

Edited November 22, 2017 by poontang

[12gauge82]

I don't know, we're the secondd biggest net contributer and fifth biggest customer, that' a huge contribution to walk out the door, especially when the majority of EU country's cost money to be a member, if we leave with no deal, the Germans won't pay more, their political system is already under strain, then when poorer members get less handouts, they're going to leave, means even less money for the EU when they stop buying EU goods, leading to more countries leaving, it'll be like a domino effect and could happen very quickly once the first one fall's I.e the UK leaves.

1 hour ago, JRDS said:

If the EU was being set up as a new scheme and the basic rules were we pay them £12 Billion nett a year for them to run a huge trade deficit with us and on top of that we have to allow unlimited migration from a population of £500 million (with millions more from Muslim / Balkan countries waiting in the wings to join) and be responsible for their housing, welfare and health care would we join?

Not unless you were gaining from it personally, for the average working tax paying Pleb the EU has been a disaster.

Hence the vote.

 

 

This sums it up very well indeed, it's very easy to get bogged down in the complexity of the EU, but the basics of how it works is just this, utter maddnes, how anyone other than a third world country wants to remain I just don't know

[Rewulf]

11 minutes ago, poontang said:

These 'quotes' were taken deliberately out of context and used by Nick Cleggs Open Britain group.

Here's his former director of communications trying (and failing miserably) to justify himself and the video.

It's a fantastic watch... I'n sure you'll enjoy it.   

 

 

Owned ! 

[JRDS]

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/882881/Brexit-EU-secret-document-truth-British-public

[12gauge82]

Unbelievable! an absaloute disgrace! and yet people still want to remain in this abhorrent corrupt super state.

[Newbie to this]

Why anyone in their right mind, thinks we should pay to trade with the EU is beyond me.

 

To put it in everyday terms - if Tesco started charging you to use their shops ie a membership, but none of the other supermarkets did, would you still shop in Tesco? I doubt it very much, so why do people think we should pay the EU to buy from them? It's beyond my comprehension.

Edited November 22, 2017 by Newbie to this

[Granett]

5 hours ago, Rewulf said:

The fact that Hannan is asking to be sacked was a bit of a draw to be honest, as was Farage.
Where someone is willing to inconvenience themselves for their cause, usually denotes honesty in this world of liars.

Redwood on the other hand is one who will go whichever way the wind blows.

In a discussion about the validity of sources you appear to have edited the definition of Demagogue that you "cited". Is that right? Can you link to the source if I'm mistaken. 

Also there appears to be degree of false equivalence. Your claim that the Express is no worse than the Guardian is a strawman argument because it's not a case of the Express-vs-the Guardian. It's the Express (and the Mail)  vs the rest of the world pretty much. 

What career go you believe Hannan was willing to be sacked from? I'm intrigued to know more. 

And lastly on Redwood, I'm also unclear on how it helps the case for Brexit that one of the main campaigners is as fickle as you claim him to be. How does that address the point that his support for Brexit appears to be disaster capitalism - pulling his money out, pushing for Brexit in the knowledge of what harm it'll do to the country, and then mopping up in the aftermath? 

[Bazooka Joe]

1 hour ago, JRDS said:

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/882881/Brexit-EU-secret-document-truth-British-public

There was talk of this a while back, positive proof now.

 

[Granett]

2 hours ago, poontang said:

These 'quotes' were taken deliberately out of context and used by Nick Cleggs Open Britain group.

Here's his former director of communications trying (and failing miserably) to justify himself and the video.

It's a fantastic watch... I'm sure you'll enjoy it.   

 

 

Ad hominem fallacious argument unfortunately. Which point(s) do you feel were misconstrued? 

We were looking at Farage - do you for example feel like Andrew Marr said that just because it was a few years ago that he said it, it no longer should be taken as his view? 

That would imply all views have a similar shelf-life. Which in turn would suggest the mandate conferred by the Brexit referendum is similarly finite. It would seem then that you're arguing for another vote in a few years!

Edited November 22, 2017 by Granett

[Danger-Mouse]

10 hours ago, Granett said:

 

On Farage, I'm surprised, given that your fingers are constantly crossed for a Hard Brexit. Farage after all is one of that majority of prominent Leave campaigners (and Brexit voters by extrapolation) well known for wanting a soft Brexit.

"Absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the Single Market" - Daniel Hannan MEP

"Only a madman would actually leave the Market" - Owen Paterson MP, Vote Leave backer

"Wouldn't it be terrible if we were really like Norway and Switzerland? Really? They're rich. They're happy. They're self-governing" - Nigel Farage, Ukip leader

"The Norwegian option, the EEA option, I think that it might be initially attractive for some business people" - Matthew Elliot, Vote Leave chief executive

"Increasingly, the Norway option looks the best for the UK" - Arron Banks, Leave.EU founder

Nigel wants a soft Brexit! Really? I'd like to see that quote, and in complete terms not just some soundbite.

As regards the quotes mentioned here, well this article deals with the majority of them.

https://medium.com/@jamesforward/a-rebuttal-to-open-britain-vote-leave-never-promised-to-remain-in-the-single-market-85a0778c75a9

[12gauge82]

Granett, really inteested on your views of document FCO 30/1048 and it's apparent revaluaion that our politicians new all along that joint g what we were told was a trading bloc would in reality make us subservient to an EU super tate and ensuring by the time we realised it would be too late, I bet you won' see that reported in the guardian or on the BBC or itv or channl 4 or on sky or any other mainstream news feed. So again what are your thoughts on this? 

[Granett]

42 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

Granett, really inteested on your views of document FCO 30/1048 and it's apparent revaluaion that our politicians new all along that joint g what we were told was a trading bloc would in reality make us subservient to an EU super tate and ensuring by the time we realised it would be too late, I bet you won' see that reported in the guardian or on the BBC or itv or channl 4 or on sky or any other mainstream news feed. So again what are your thoughts on this? 

It looks like fake news about a decades old meaningless doc. I'll wait until it's picked by something with more credibility than the Express to see if it's anything more than sensationalist populism. 

Meanwhile... 

Government budget watchdog slashes growth forecasts to 'weakest in the modern era'

http://www.businessinsider.com/budget-2017-obr-cuts-growth-forecasts-up-to-2022-2017-11?r=UK&IR=T

[Granett]

56 minutes ago, Danger-Mouse said:

Nigel wants a soft Brexit! Really? I'd like to see that quote, and in complete terms not just some soundbite.

As regards the quotes mentioned here, well this article deals with the majority of them.

https://medium.com/@jamesforward/a-rebuttal-to-open-britain-vote-leave-never-promised-to-remain-in-the-single-market-85a0778c75a9

That article you have linked to supports my position. 

It is in response to claims those Leave campaigners didn't want to leave the single market. It argues mainly that the important distinction is that they did envisage leaving, but retaining access - ie a soft Brexit.

 ... Which is what I said. Thry envisaged and campaigned for a soft Brexit. 

[Danger-Mouse]

1 minute ago, Granett said:

That article you have linked to supports my position. 

It is in response to claims those Leave campaigners didn't want to leave the single market. It argues mainly that the important distinction is that they did envisage leaving, but retaining access - ie a soft Brexit.

 ... Which is what I said. Thry envisaged and campaigned for a soft Brexit. 

No, read it again . . .

" I have begun to question statements made regarding the Single Market — Why, oh why, is it considered okay to falsify or intentionally misinterpret quotes from people just because they’re not on the same side as you? "

[Granett]

6 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Of course it is ,this is a shooting forum, with a membership that is mostly right wing, working class 'blokes' 

Just to pick up on this, again, I agree about the demographic but unclear how as you suggest  that leads to the trust in the Express... 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-10-16/poorest-u-k-families-would-take-biggest-hit-from-no-deal-brexit

Poorest U.K. Families Would Take Biggest Hit From No-Deal Brexit

• Food, clothing among products that could see large price rises
• Theresa May in Brussels this week for summit with EU leaders

Households already struggling to make ends meet will be the worst hit if the U.K. fails to agree a trade deal with the European Union.

The impact on the poorest of British households would be a third greater than on the richest, researchers at the Resolution Foundation and the U.K. Trade Policy Observatory said in a report Tuesday. Lower-income households spend a greater proportion of their income on products like food, drink and clothing, which would see the greatest price increases under new trade tariffs.

This is no politicking stuff. This is research carried out post-referendum (ie, when there's no point deceiving) by a charity that helps the poorest families in the country. 

While Redwood and his chums stash their cash in the EU waiting to snap up some bargains, the poorest families are going to bear the brunt.

I'm sure that by the time that bites, the Express will have lined up some other scapegoat group to blame that on instead of Brexit. 

Edited November 22, 2017 by Granett

[12gauge82]

27 minutes ago, Granett said:

It looks like fake news about a decades old meaningless doc. I'll wait until it's picked by something with more credibility than the Express to see if it's anything more than sensationalist populism. 

Meanwhile... 

Government budget watchdog slashes growth forecasts to 'weakest in the modern era'

http://www.businessinsider.com/budget-2017-obr-cuts-growth-forecasts-up-to-2022-2017-11?r=UK&IR=T

Thanks for the reply, it's always good to get both sides of an argument for an informed opinion, I still think it wreaks though ?

[Granett]

24 minutes ago, Danger-Mouse said:

No, read it again . . .

" I have begun to question statements made regarding the Single Market — Why, oh why, is it considered okay to falsify or intentionally misinterpret quotes from people just because they’re not on the same side as you? "

Which part? Because it all agrees with what I said.

You're posting stuff that says "they didn't say they wanted to stay in, they want to leave but to retain access". 

That's soft Brexit. 

Edited November 22, 2017 by Granett

[Bazooka Joe]

Quote

It looks like fake news about a decades old meaningless doc. I'll wait until it's picked by something with more credibility than the Express to see if it's anything more than sensationalist populism. 

Hardly fake, the public have been able to view it since 2002..

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C11018818

Edited November 22, 2017 by Bazooka Joe
spelling

[poontang]

1 hour ago, Granett said:

Ad hominem fallacious argument unfortunately. Which point(s) do you feel were misconstrued? 

We were looking at Farage - do you for example feel like Andrew Marr said that just because it was a few years ago that he said it, it no longer should be taken as his view? 

That would imply all views have a similar shelf-life. Which in turn would suggest the mandate conferred by the Brexit referendum is similarly finite. It would seem then that you're arguing for another vote in a few years!

You didn't watch the video did you?

And if you did where is the ad hominem argument... and what has Andrew Marr got to do with anything?

[12gauge82]

I to want free trade but not at the expense of our courts sovereignty, free movement of people and all the other nonsense that goes with being a EU member, that is or should be our red line in the sand, if that can't be met we walk away. Must dash.

[Danger-Mouse]

10 minutes ago, Granett said:

Which part? Because it all agrees with what I said.

You're posting stuff that says "they didn't say they wanted to stay in, they want to leave but to retain access". 

That's soft Brexit. 

Wanting to continue trading with the EU is not a soft Brexit. A soft Brexit would imply continuing to pay into the EU budget and allowing the "four freedoms", also probably being subject to the European Courts.