Do you see the bird/clay right up until the kill?

[DanBettin]

Kind of related to the gun fit thread I've just created; I'm quite low on the stock, so I don't see any rib at all - and in fact just the top half of the bead (roughly speaking).

 

I was consistently missing, so I started lifting the gun up to completely cover the clay right before the kill - is this normal? I know the idea is to point and not aim, but am I right in saying this is adding some complexity to my shot? I feel like (because I have to lose visibility of the clay to hit it) I've got another dimension to take care of with lead etc.

 

I'm rambling - my question is - do you have visibility of the clay right up until the point you pull the trigger? Or is it common to have to 'hide' the clay behind the barrel to go through the middle of it?

[figgy]

You dont say what type of clay target as some rising or driven will have to covered by the barrels with the forward allowance to break the clay. On crossing targets not ideal as when you cant see the target you tend to lift your head off the stock. You should see a bit of rib and the target sat on the bead when you look down the gun, then just look at the bird or clay and not at the gun. Get your gun fitted to you and start off the right way.

Edited October 10, 2017 by figgy

[TIGHTCHOKE]

You should see the target and your gun should shoot where you are looking.

 

I any of these elements is not correct, you will not be able to shoot and kill consistently.

Edited October 10, 2017 by TIGHTCHOKE

[DanBettin]

You dont say what type of clay target as some rising or driven will have to covered by the barrels with the forward allowance to break the clay. On crossing targets not ideal as when you cant see the target you tend to lift your head off the stock. You should see a bit of rib and the target sat on the bead when you look down the gun, then just look at the bird or clay and not at the gun. Get your gun fitted to you and start off the right way.

 

Good point! I suppose the likes of a teal on it's way up would need covering either way. But you answered my question with the crosser.

 

PW's great - it's unfortunate, but very useful, that it seems from the replies I'm getting today I need to look more carefully at my fit.

[wymberley]

Sooner is better than later. If you can't see with your right eye (assuming right handed), your left eye might decide to take over. then you're in real trouble!

Don't know which pad you've ordered (other thread), but most can affect the cast which is another problem. The name of one which does not has slipped my mind but someone will know.

[DanBettin]

Sooner is better than later. If you can't see with your right eye (assuming right handed), your left eye might decide to take over. then you're in real trouble!

Don't know which pad you've ordered (other thread), but most can affect the cast which is another problem. The name of one which does not has slipped my mind but someone will know.

 

Yep, you're right. I'll get this sorted this weekend. Thanks mate.

 

In terms of sight - I'm cross eye dominance, my left eye is quite heavily dominant so that's completely shut (unfortunately). The idea of hiding the clay with the barrel is because I'm looking straight down the rib (not 'into it') so the barrels need to be on it. Meaning once I've put all that effort into matching my gun speed to the clay and pulling away I've THEN got to also bring the gun up (invariably) to be 'on' the target. It's that last bit which is killing my consistency.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

 

Yep, you're right. I'll get this sorted this weekend. Thanks mate.

 

In terms of sight - I'm cross eye dominance, my left eye is quite heavily dominant so that's completely shut (unfortunately). The idea of hiding the clay with the barrel is because I'm looking straight down the rib (not 'into it') so the barrels need to be on it. Meaning once I've put all that effort into matching my gun speed to the clay and pulling away I've THEN got to also bring the gun up (invariably) to be 'on' the target. It's that last bit which is killing my consistency.

 

I am not surprised!

[wymberley]

 

Yep, you're right. I'll get this sorted this weekend. Thanks mate.

 

In terms of sight - I'm cross eye dominance, my left eye is quite heavily dominant so that's completely shut (unfortunately). The idea of hiding the clay with the barrel is because I'm looking straight down the rib (not 'into it') so the barrels need to be on it. Meaning once I've put all that effort into matching my gun speed to the clay and pulling away I've THEN got to also bring the gun up (invariably) to be 'on' the target. It's that last bit which is killing my consistency.

The pad is ISIS.

Don't listen to me, but the competent guy who's stood beside you if that's what you mean about this weekend. Although it does sound like it is the fit at fault, one reason for the problem you've just described is the failure to push (bayonet action) with your left hand when mounting.

Clays? Safety glasses are no bad thing, then you can put a small correctly positioned patch on the left lens and shoot with both eyes open maintaining 3D vision right up until the gun comes into the shoulder and you pull the trigger.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Good point about the dot to take out the wrongly dominant eye

[Westward]

In answer to your original question, 2 eyed shooters should never lose sight of the clay. Those who close an eye sometimes will because they blot out the clay with the gun on driven and steep rising targets such as teals.

 

As to your gun fit, it sounds all wrong to me. Basically, you cannot point the gun properly unless your line of sight is above the rib. Try pointing at a distant object with your finger and you'll see exactly what I mean.

 

Shotguns are not shot like rifles and consequently shotgun fit & mount are quite different.

[FairImogen]

Like many women, I dont have a dominant eye. Consequently, I acquire target with both eyes open, then close L eye (I shoot from R shoulder) on mounting.

 

This means that on vertical (teal type) targets I see both gun and clay;

 

On horizontal (crosser type) targets I see only clay;

 

And on driven type targets - once I mount, and pull ahead - I am blind, and see only gun

[DanBettin]

Thanks for all the replies. I won't quote each one but with every reply has been a bit of info for me that will help me in the long run - much appreciated.

[DanBettin]

Another question (don't think it deserves another separate thread) - isn't it the case that if I'm too low on the stock, at least I'm always shooting straight? As opposed to seeing a bit of the rib, we're now shooting at an upwards angle.

 

That angle's fine for a particular distance, but I may miss over the top of it with a bird that's twice as far out. Again, I know you're not supposed to focus on the gun, but you do at least need to know where about the clay should sit in your sight. Does that change if I can now see a bit of the rib depending on the distance. At least with straight, I have a way to always make sure I'm 'on' the clay?

 

I know I'm obsessing over this, but I really need to break through the plateau and make sure I'm nailing each detail of fit etc.

[Scully]

Only you can decide how you prefer to shoot regarding the amount of rib you see; there are no rights or wrongs as were all individuals.

When I mount a gun I prefer to see no rib at all, and when I shoot I mostly swing through from behind a target ( the speed of swing takes care of lead ) and shoot when the target disappears. It works very well for me but may not for you.

I bought a 8500 Trap some years ago ( because I love the model ) thinking I would have the stock sporterised as the amount of rib I could see was phenomenal and I had no idea where I was shooting, but when my nephew shot it he loved it so I sold it to him.

He says he can see some rib but not too much and even though its choked Full and Extra Full he uses it for high driven birds and English Sporting.

All this proves is that there is no one shape fits all. A few lessons with a reputable coach will pay dividends because first of all you need to get your mount consistently right; time after time.

No one can fit a gun to someone with an inconsistent mount.

Take your time and get it right.

[Wingman]

No disrespect intended to the OP, but there are many factors here being questioned that suggest some basic lessons from a good instructor is the best approach. As others have said from what is described about not seeing the rib suggests a poor fitting gun and almost certainly incorrect mount and stance.

 

None of these are huge problems though and can be sorted out by a good instructor, I speak from experience!!

 

Good luck

Edited October 11, 2017 by Wingman

[DanBettin]

No disrespect intended to the OP, but there are many factors here being questioned that suggest some basic lessons from a good instructor is the best approach. As others have said from what is described about not seeing the rib suggests a poor fitting gun and almost certainly incorrect mount and stance.

 

None of these are huge problems though and can be sorted out by a good instructor, I speak from experience!!

 

Good luck

 

Thanks mate, I don't interpret that as disrespect - helpful if anything.

 

I've had a few lessons to be honest, and I'm doing well. I've got a feel for where to place the shot rather than needing to think about it too much and I'm happy with progress. In order to get from 'good' to great though I need to work out why I've plateau'd a bit and want to work out how I can get to 80+/100. and I suspect it's because I'm compensating for this little tweak in mount that's needed. I'm successfully compensating (most of the time), but as I explained in post #6 it's this which is making the last bit of my shot a bit 'all over the place'.

 

I guess an instructor should have discussed how much of the rib to have in my sight if necessary - but to their credit I have been told I'm shooting quite low, which I guess hints at it.

Edited October 11, 2017 by DanBettin

[Westward]

isn't it the case that if I'm too low on the stock, at least I'm always shooting straight? As opposed to seeing a bit of the rib, we're now shooting at an upwards angle.

 

That angle's fine for a particular distance, but I may miss over the top of it with a bird that's twice as far out.

It doesn't work like that although many people think it does. Did you try the finger pointing exercise?

 

Seeing no rib is fairly common among shooters but in my experience, rare with really good clay shots. When someone says it should shoot where you look that effectively means you can deliver the shot to where you're looking without seeing the gun except as a shadow. Your brain knows where the gun is pointing exactly as it does when you point with your finger or a laser pointer. When you look flat and level along the rib what's happening is that you're looking where it shoots which is not all the same as having it shoot where you're looking.

 

Have a look on Youtube for clips of people shooting from the hip or with the gun upside down or overhead etc. What they're doing is using their vision system - which always knows where the barrel/rib assembly is - to point the gun at the target.

[wymberley]

It doesn't work like that although many people think it does. Did you try the finger pointing exercise?

 

Seeing no rib is fairly common among shooters but in my experience, rare with really good clay shots. When someone says it should shoot where you look that effectively means you can deliver the shot to where you're looking without seeing the gun except as a shadow. Your brain knows where the gun is pointing exactly as it does when you point with your finger or a laser pointer. When you look flat and level along the rib what's happening is that you're looking where it shoots which is not all the same as having it shoot where you're looking.

 

Have a look on Youtube for clips of people shooting from the hip or with the gun upside down or overhead etc. What they're doing is using their vision system - which always knows where the barrel/rib assembly is - to point the gun at the target.

I always thought that the pointy finger was applicable to master/dominant eye, ie, cast. Are you saying that in addition to this if my finger was loaded and I fired at something at which it was pointed I would hit it? As my arm/finger are in a straight line (rib) and my eye is some x inches above that (comb), I'm pretty damned sure that I'd miss over the top.

 

Surely, the assumption, to which the above highlighted is a response, is correct.

[Wb123]

is the elephant in the room not shooting from the wrong shoulder?

 

Even with a potentially iffy fit at least that way he can keep both eyes open...

 

DOI: also strongly cross dominant and really struggled till I changed to my left shoulder, trying shooting left handed with both eyes open was a revalation.

[Dekers]

Kind of related to the gun fit thread I've just created; I'm quite low on the stock, so I don't see any rib at all - and in fact just the top half of the bead (roughly speaking).

 

I was consistently missing, so I started lifting the gun up to completely cover the clay right before the kill - is this normal? I know the idea is to point and not aim, but am I right in saying this is adding some complexity to my shot? I feel like (because I have to lose visibility of the clay to hit it) I've got another dimension to take care of with lead etc.

 

I'm rambling - my question is - do you have visibility of the clay right up until the point you pull the trigger? Or is it common to have to 'hide' the clay behind the barrel to go through the middle of it?

 

The chances of you hitting it in those circumstances are very slim, unless it is travelling straight at you and at the end of the barrel!

Edited October 11, 2017 by Dekers

[Westward]

I always thought that the pointy finger was applicable to master/dominant eye, ie, cast. Are you saying that in addition to this if my finger was loaded and I fired at something at which it was pointed I would hit it? As my arm/finger are in a straight line (rib) and my eye is some x inches above that (comb), I'm pretty damned sure that I'd miss over the top.

 

Surely, the assumption, to which the above highlighted is a response, is correct.

Well... When I point at an object my finger is (a) below the line of sight and (b) pointing right at the object. I've watched others do it and as yet I've never seen anyone hold their finger right up at eye level. I've also proved to myself by switching between sporters and trap guns that comb height variations (within reason) don't seem to affect my scores as long as my line of sight is above the rib.

 

Cross dominance and what to do about it is a different topic.

[wymberley]

I can quite happily live with "within reason". However with the pointy finger, how can you point at something if said finger is not at eye level as the barrels would also be (within reason) when the gun is mounted. If my finger is not at eye level I'm pointing at a point below where I'm looking and have to lower my head until it, finger and 'target' coincide.

[Westward]

However with the pointy finger, how can you point at something if said finger is not at eye level

I can point pretty accurately with my finger at waist level, just like in the Westerns but without the revolver. The brain knows where the 'target' is and knows how to steer the finger to point right at it without lining it up visually. Perhaps I'm mistaken but I thought everyone could point without aiming (as in rifling).

 

I've never tried any fancy trick shots but I've shot from the hip a few times and it's not particularly difficult.

[welshwarrior]

Sound to me like your confused and making all this complicated. You struggling do yourself a favour go and see a decent coach and get them to tell you what's going wrong it'll be cheaper and quicker in the long run.

[wymberley]

I can point pretty accurately with my finger at waist level, just like in the Westerns but without the revolver. The brain knows where the 'target' is and knows how to steer the finger to point right at it without lining it up visually. Perhaps I'm mistaken but I thought everyone could point without aiming (as in rifling).

 

I've never tried any fancy trick shots but I've shot from the hip a few times and it's not particularly difficult.

My apologies, you are, of course, absolutely right. It's simply that whenever I've had someone try the pointy finger bit it's always either while discussing shotgun marksmanship or while coaching and when I've asked them to point at something, without exception each and every one has raised their arm such that the eye, finger and something have made a straight line. I have to confess I've never tried to teach anyone to shoot from the hip or while bending over and shooting between the legs. The latter may be best avoided as you can't be absolutely certain quite where said finger might well end up.