Poland next to leave

[oowee]

Your totally right, although, i am retired on a pension.

I just want to bring some realism on the choice we have made. My neighbour is Mr Mogg who takes completely the opposite view which includes saying we should import Argentinian beef.

 

12 minutes ago, Walker570 said:

I remember us having to dump New Zealand because of the constraints of the EU, a country which fought tooth and nail and who's men spilt blood for us. I was there in 1991 and I have to say they seemed to be doing OK.  They did their homework saw a big market next door in Japan, China and the Far Eastern countries and started to produce goods they could sell there from fruit to slices of antler. 

About time we dumped the EU and went back cap in hand, although that seems unnecessary as the Kiwis have already said they want to have a deal with us.

The unelected Leeches in Brussels have now treated the proud Polish people like naughty schoolchildren, invoking Article 7.  They should send it back and tell them to stuff it where the sun don't shine.

 

How would the deal go? Lets have all your lamb tarriff free and put our industry out of business. They can buy our finished goods in return 

This may be helpful.

Edited December 21, 2017 by oowee

[scotslad]

20 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

Have a look on YouTube for a speech by the OZ pm, they were one of the first to come out and say they were ready to do trade with us as soon as we were. Half the world won' trade with the EU because of their protectionist agenda, these country's are despeate to strike new free trade deals.

Here's a quick link http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2017-07-10/australia-wants-a-free-trade-deal-with-the-uk-asap-after-brexit/8695590?pfmredir=sm

 

Sorry but they're is a world of difference between a PM's soundbite and them actually buying anything off us.

 

Both Ozzies and Kiwi's are fiercely patriotic and really do tend to buy home made products before anything else, I honestly don't know anything we could really sell them they'd buy in big numbers, esp not to make up a 43% or 240 billion potential trade loss.

If they want cheap **** it's only a very short distance to sail a boat from the far east..

The kiwi's don'/won't even buy much that originates from Oz never mind further afield

When u look at how they farm its no wonder their product is sooo much cheaper than the UK's as land is cheap and plentiful and stock is not looked very often if it dies it dies, no vets involved

 

I really do think Uk is going to struggle in the world market, any of the niche market/industries we were once brilliant at are now gone or too expensive.

Oowee made some good common sense points too, it really is not rocket science, wages/costs are far higher here than other countries

 

Look I voted to leave with my eyes open and tried to see the other sides arguments, many made a lot of sense, but  to bury ur head in the sand or be totally naive to some potential costs is  pretty silly

[12gauge82]

The whole reason we've lost many trades and jobs in this country is due to being a member of the EU in the first place, the UK contrary to popular belief has one of the most diverse economy in the world which would give us very good standing on the world stage, have a little belief.

9 hours ago, scotslad said:

 

Sorry but they're is a world of difference between a PM's soundbite and them actually buying anything off us.

 

Both Ozzies and Kiwi's are fiercely patriotic and really do tend to buy home made products before anything else, I honestly don't know anything we could really sell them they'd buy in big numbers, esp not to make up a 43% or 240 billion potential trade loss.

If they want cheap **** it's only a very short distance to sail a boat from the far east..

The kiwi's don'/won't even buy much that originates from Oz never mind further afield

When u look at how they farm its no wonder their product is sooo much cheaper than the UK's as land is cheap and plentiful and stock is not looked very often if it dies it dies, no vets involved

 

I really do think Uk is going to struggle in the world market, any of the niche market/industries we were once brilliant at are now gone or too expensive.

Oowee made some good common sense points too, it really is not rocket science, wages/costs are far higher here than other countries

 

Look I voted to leave with my eyes open and tried to see the other sides arguments, many made a lot of sense, but  to bury ur head in the sand or be totally naive to some potential costs is  pretty silly

I don't know how much clearer a country can make it than to stand there straight after Brexit and state we want to trade with you, they are far from the only ones, the US has also said they would give us a good trade deal, our costs are not that much higher than many other countries now, that is due to the pound falling against other country's, again not a bad thing considering we want to sell goods to other countries and should also stimulate well paid jobs back home making it cheaper to make our own goods rather than buy some items in from abroad.

[Rewulf]

12 hours ago, oowee said:

High added value products and services will be Ok but we will still need to find a way of attracting and keeping high knowledge students. 

Google the top 20 universities in the world, we have 4 of them, the EU has none.

[12gauge82]

The twisting by the remain camp is unbelievable, project fear is still at full speed.

[oowee]

28 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Google the top 20 universities in the world, we have 4 of them, the EU has none.

Yep we have some of the best but currently EU students get a loan for fees so the Universities are affordable. i am guessing this will go and it provides a good conduit for attracting the best.

[scotslad]

27 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

The twisting by the remain camp is unbelievable, project fear is still at full speed.

 

I actually voted to leave, its not project fear jut a degree of realism and common sense.

Just because we leave everything will not suddenly become sugar coated

 

Things will get worse immediately before/after brexit even if we get a brilliant deal, big business/commerce hates change and uncertainty.

Things will eventually settle down and life will get back to normal. I hope u get the deal u want from leaving but I doubt it.

Even as a leaver I doubt the borders will close (esp if we have to keep an open border in NI) and we'll end up having to jump throu hoops to get trade deals with the EU and probably end up with many of the stupid rules and regs we're trying to get rid off.

Basically with the negation team we've got I expect we'll end up with the worst off both, they really are a bunch of clueless f@@kwits.

[Honey Monster]

21 hours ago, TriBsa said:

Poland is in an awkward position geographically, sandwiched as it is between Germany and Russia. Memories of the events of 1939 when it was carved up by Germany and the USSR mean that it is wary of both neighbours.

O yes. We rememeber very good our "allies" and how they helped us in 1939 and in Yalta 1945. Also we rememeber London Victory Celebrations 1946 when no Polish Forces were invited despite it was fourth greatest Allied army. 

21 hours ago, TriBsa said:

 It needs a security guarantor and upon casting off the shackles of communism, found this in joining the NATO alliance.

I don't think so. As I mentioned above- better without " guarantors" and NATO ( north altantic talking organisation ) doesn't work at all. 

[Rewulf]

39 minutes ago, oowee said:

Yep we have some of the best but currently EU students get a loan for fees so the Universities are affordable. i am guessing this will go and it provides a good conduit for attracting the best.

With respect oowee, there are a lot of ifs and buts in your arguments.
The academia of Europe have already decided its in no ones interest to interfere with the way things work now.
The UK has made it clear that students from outside the UK, and outside the EU will have the full access for genuine students it has now.

2 minutes ago, Honey Monster said:

O yes. We rememeber very good our "allies" and how they helped us in 1939 and in Yalta 1945. Also we rememeber London Victory Celebrations 1946 when no Polish Forces were invited despite it was fourth greatest Allied army. 

I don't think so. As I mentioned above- better without " guarantors" and NATO ( north altantic talking organisation ) doesn't work at all. 

I have to agree with most of that, some shameful behaviour on our part after WW2.
I dont think it was out of spite, just the precarious position everyone was in at that time.
And I agree, NATO is a just a name for a theoretical alliance we used to scare the USSR with.
But I do believe Poland could do with some friends right now, and I think the offer is there, welcome or not.

[misser]

they dont want us to leave, we put too much money in the pot....shoot me down if you disagree and im sure you will  but i think they will make it very difficult and above all extremely costly to us to leave ....other countries may want to leave but may get presented with a big divoce bill....ie they can leave but in reality cannot afford to...  

[TIGHTCHOKE]

5 minutes ago, misser said:

they dont want us to leave, we put too much money in the pot....shoot me down if you disagree and im sure you will  but i think they will make it very difficult and above all extremely costly to us to leave ....other countries may want to leave but may get presented with a big divoce bill....ie they can leave but in reality cannot afford to...  

You may very well be correct, but ultimately that will take us closer to the NO DEAL, walk away option!

[Rewulf]

10 minutes ago, misser said:

they dont want us to leave, we put too much money in the pot....shoot me down if you disagree and im sure you will  but i think they will make it very difficult and above all extremely costly to us to leave ....other countries may want to leave but may get presented with a big divoce bill....ie they can leave but in reality cannot afford to...  

Try this for a theoretical situation.

We leave in a few years time, we pay the 50 bn+ 'divorce' bill , which is actually blackmail money for a 'favourable' trade deal.
Poland, Hungary, and Austria invoke art 50 ,and begin painful negotiations for withdrawal.
Italy and Greece go bankrupt as confidence plunges, citizens call for withdrawal, EU demands 'reparations' first.
EU acts like an ***, as per, demanding more divorce money, causing more low confidence within the EU and euro.
More countries bail..
France and Germany end up left as the last 2 EU countries, with shattered economies and civil unrest.
 

So what happened to our 50 bn and our trade deal ? 

[12gauge82]

1 hour ago, scotslad said:

 

I actually voted to leave, its not project fear jut a degree of realism and common sense.

Just because we leave everything will not suddenly become sugar coated

I never said it would

Things will get worse immediately before/after brexit even if we get a brilliant deal, big business/commerce hates change and uncertainty.

Agreed

Things will eventually settle down and life will get back to normal. I hope u get the deal u want from leaving but I doubt it.

Agreed

Even as a leaver I doubt the borders will close (esp if we have to keep an open border in NI) and we'll end up having to jump throu hoops to get trade deals with the EU and probably end up with many of the stupid rules and regs we're trying to get rid off.

Depends on our politicians and them having a backbone

Basically with the negation team we've got I expect we'll end up with the worst off both, they really are a bunch of clueless f@@kwits.

Agreed

 

[misser]

rewulf, your hypothetical situation may be closer to reality than we think.....tightchoke , agree totally that it is blackmail and personally however much the ransome fee is we will not get a favourable trade deal..that is why the money is requested up front...prior to the referendum cameron went in with his 'i want' list and came back with an empty trolley...if we couldnt get anything when we were 'in' im pretty sure they wont give us a good deal now were 'out'  

[TIGHTCHOKE]

1 minute ago, misser said:

rewulf, your hypothetical situation may be closer to reality than we think.....tightchoke , agree totally that it is blackmail and personally however much the ransome fee is we will not get a favourable trade deal..that is why the money is requested up front...prior to the referendum cameron went in with his 'i want' list and came back with an empty trolley...if we couldnt get anything when we were 'in' im pretty sure they wont give us a good deal now were 'out'  

29th March 2019 looks really good at the moment!

[TriBsa]

41 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

29th March 2019 looks really good at the moment!

Except the date is no longer firm:

Quote

The government's key EU Withdrawal Bill has cleared the latest stage of its Parliamentary journey after ministers avoided a defeat on the date of Brexit.

MPs voted in favour of setting Brexit at 23:00 GMT on 29 March 2019 - with the caveat that ministers can change it if necessary.

Theresa May has said this would only happen in "exceptional circumstances" and "for the shortest possible time".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42424997

Hands up everyone who trusts Appeaser May.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

I live in eternal hope that we can get out of the awful white elephant!

[TriBsa]

8 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

I live in eternal hope that we can get out of the awful white elephant!

Only when it has extracted all nutrients from us and it decides to defecate.

[old man]

15 hours ago, scotslad said:

I really hope ur right but I'm no where near as optimistic as ur self,  just the logistics themselves will make things harder more expensive

 Aye but that would be back in the 70's, sadly times have changed since then.

Back then UK would still be a real powerhouse of industry, still making cars, steel, ship yards etc and all owned by UK companies, now most of that is gone.

Also most of these commonwealth countries have now came on leaps and bounds in that 50 years.

 

I really can't see Oz or NZ buying much from us, both very proud nations who tend to buy there own stuff if they can, india probably sells us more stuff nowadays than us to it.

Even taking many jobs away from UK now, and with ur cheap labour in the far east

After the disgraceful way we treated them when we joined the common market could anyone really blame the for the cold shoulder?

The Asian markets have absorbed our previous trade.

Sad to say now we are just an "also ran" in world terms?

Looking at our current negotiators the EU are laughing at every turn of the screw because they know we are just laughably weak?

[Honey Monster]

To keep long story short- EU is a total failure. It is another try to build a totalitarian empire with socialist utopia elements. As sooner this project will die as better. It is not if, it's when.

[oowee]

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Try this for a theoretical situation.

We leave in a few years time, we pay the 50 bn+ 'divorce' bill , which is actually blackmail money for a 'favourable' trade deal.
Poland, Hungary, and Austria invoke art 50 ,and begin painful negotiations for withdrawal.
Italy and Greece go bankrupt as confidence plunges, citizens call for withdrawal, EU demands 'reparations' first.
EU acts like an ***, as per, demanding more divorce money, causing more low confidence within the EU and euro.
More countries bail..
France and Germany end up left as the last 2 EU countries, with shattered economies and civil unrest.
 

So what happened to our 50 bn and our trade deal ? 

You forget that many of the countries share the euro. If one goes down the pan there is a huge boost in the economy of the remaining. Look at the benefit to Germany of the Euro valuation compared to the mark. Laughing all the way to and back from the bank. The whole point of the EU redistribution of wealth (contributions from the richer countries to build the economies of the poorer) and people is to strengthen the economy of the block. The EU spend money on those most in need to bolster there economies and in the process build trade barriers to the market place to protect the standards of what you have. Perfect common sense to most and the reasons why the negotiations will be tricky.

Interesting that as part of the EU we agree to allow NZ to sell lamb to the EU tariff free. The UK agreed that the distribution of this lamb could be apportioned 45% to the UK. No doubt NZ will want an early trade deal as without it, it now faces a 45% loss of it's market. 

I once worked on an audit of a reservoir scheme in Greece that when visited had diving boards and lane markers 

[Rewulf]

4 minutes ago, oowee said:

You forget that many of the countries share the euro. If one goes down the pan there is a huge boost in the economy of the remaining. Look at the benefit to Germany of the Euro valuation compared to the mark. Laughing all the way to and back from the bank. The whole point of the EU redistribution of wealth (contributions from the richer countries to build the economies of the poorer) and people is to strengthen the economy of the block. The EU spend money on those most in need to bolster there economies and in the process build trade barriers to the market place to protect the standards of what you have. Perfect common sense to most and the reasons why the negotiations will be tricky.

Interesting that as part of the EU we agree to allow NZ to sell lamb to the EU tariff free. The UK agreed that the distribution of this lamb could be apportioned 45% to the UK. No doubt NZ will want an early trade deal as without it, it now faces a 45% loss of it's market. 

I once worked on an audit of a reservoir scheme in Greece that when visited had diving boards and lane markers 

That last sentence says it all, and yes weve all heard the jokes about non existent infrastructure.
The fact of the matter is this, the EU spends OUR money where IT wants to.
Up until Maggie got our rebate, we were paying farmers (who may or may not have had farms) to produce (or not produce) goods which we then had to buy off them, whether or not we wanted to.
Does that sound like a reasonable trade arrangement ?
Its all very noble strengthening a weaker country, so at some point in the distant future we might benefit back.
We had to shut down our own industries to let other, weaker countries sell to us the things we used to make ourselves.
Making us reliant on others for food and raw materials.
But as a net contributor and heavy migration recipient, we are being weakened.
Weve had the migrant argument many times, but the numbers do not add up, and you can twist them round how you like, but uncontrolled immigration does not benefit this country, socially or economically.
The only reason negotiations to untangle ourselves from this mire are 'tricky' is because the EU has put its most vehement europhiles forward as its negotiating team, its their JOB to make it tricky,painful and ultimately, unsuccessful .

[clakk]

It seems to be a basic "instinct" of the French and Germans to try and control Europe across all levels whilst cherry picking what rules /laws they will obey themselves.Send the French the bill for 2x world wars for rescuing them from their German "allies" and we dont owe them beans .America rebuilt Germany purely as a "buffer zone " between the Russians and the rest of europe.

We borrowed bilions to pay for that war and took a long time to pay it back.We paid for Spain to have an amazing motorway network whilst ours crumbles and that list  of other projects is LONG. After giving them there "europeans "half a trillion pounds over 40 years in return for what ""crumbs" from the Top table .Time to load up the wagons and move forward from this to quote others 

[anser2]

I very much doubt that Poland will leave the EU. The govenment does not like the EU, but in recent [polls over 80% of the public  are in favour of the EU. The poles know which side their bread is buttered on.

 

[12gauge82]

6 minutes ago, anser2 said:

I very much doubt that Poland will leave the EU. The govenment does not like the EU, but in recent [polls over 80% of the public  are in favour of the EU. The poles know which side their bread is buttered on.

 

I.agree with you there and we're buttering it far to much.