KB1 Posted January 4, 2018 Report Share Posted January 4, 2018 I think Scully is on the money, we all enjoy shooting….. we like pulling the trigger and killing whatever it is we kill These days 95% of what I shoot is clays, but I defend every shooters rights to shoot whatever's legal…. As usual there are so many subjective views on whats acceptable and whats not, and plenty of stealthy self justification going on…. When it comes to lobbying government peeps, I prefer to leave it to the professionals and continue paying my circa 20 pence a day to BASC……. love em or hate em, they put forward a better argument than a PW posse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stevo Posted January 4, 2018 Report Share Posted January 4, 2018 11 minutes ago, KB1 said: When it comes to lobbying government peeps, I prefer to leave it to the professionals and continue paying my circa 20 pence a day to BASC……. love em or hate em, they put forward a better argument than a PW posse That’s the funniest thing I have heard so far in 2018 ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted January 4, 2018 Report Share Posted January 4, 2018 23 minutes ago, motty said: That was back in the day when most folk would eat game. So many people these days turn their noses up at the mere thought of it. People are far too fussy these days. I think the reason most of us wouldn't shoot winged game on the ground is because there is no fun in it. Well I disagree, to me shooting bolting rabbits is good sport, but shooting running pheasants is a no no!.......but we will have to leave that up to others to decide! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KB1 Posted January 4, 2018 Report Share Posted January 4, 2018 4 minutes ago, stevo said: That’s the funniest thing I have heard so far in 2018 ?? Me too, and I wrote it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stevo Posted January 4, 2018 Report Share Posted January 4, 2018 Just now, KB1 said: Me too, and I wrote it Hahaha good lad ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted January 4, 2018 Report Share Posted January 4, 2018 57 minutes ago, panoma1 said: Fox hunters probably couldn't decide" because it's both! Pest control and sport! Its not shooting a gun that's 'sporting'.....it's how you carry out the activity of shooting as a whole.........shooting a pheasant on the ground is shooting, but it's not considered 'sporting'........ so again I'll ask, why do we not shoot pheasants and other winged game, on the ground?........Don't answer that, the question is rhetorical!...........The reason is, because it's not considered sporting! Conversely, shooting winged game on the wing is considered sport/sporting! We’re mostly singing from the same song sheet, but I still can’t consider shooting game as ‘sport’. Don’t forget that it wasn’t the general public who banned fox hunting but a sympathetic government lobbied by ( amongst others ) The League Against Cruel ‘SPORTS’! , both riddled with class hatred. The reason we don’t shoot game on the ground ( as someone else has just pointed out ) is that there’s no fun in it; the challenge isn’t there. If you were shooting to sustain yourself and your family then you would shoot game on the ground, just like my dear old Dad used to do by head shooting pheasants and fowl with his .22. You and me don’t need to do that but because we contain the hunting gene we do it for recreation. If you want to give your quarry a ‘sporting’ chance throw your gun at it. Everything about wing shooting is biased towards giving every conceivable advantage to the shooter, not the quarry. Like someone said; forget about the antis, but you try telling a member of the general public you kill live quarry for your own entertainment and see what their reaction is. Clay pigeon shooting and other target shooting is a ‘sport’ and is recognised as such by the Olympic Committee and the world at large. Killing live game for any other reason than sustenance is entertainment. Ill totally agree that the relevant commercial shoots need to get their act together to address the situation regarding wastage, but trying to dress up what we do as anything else other than what it actually is, isn’t fooling anyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted January 4, 2018 Report Share Posted January 4, 2018 It was the MP's....the representatives of the public that voted to ban hunting with dogs, granted it was at the behest and with the support of the LACS and other protectionist groups.......the House of Lords tried to stop it, but the Bliar government used the parliament act to force it through! That my recollection of it anyway!...and the same public opinion will never allow their MP's to vote to repeal the hunting with dogs act! As for shooting not being 'sport'........why then is it referred to as a field 'sport'? I would not tell anyone that I kill things for my own entertainment because that is not the full story.....things sometimes end up as meat as a result of my sporting activities......but most farmed animals end up as meat on a plate after a relatively short life in captivity........but without the free range life of the quarry I shoot! We have debated this now for some time, I doubt we will agree, except to agree to differ....others can decide now for themselves which view (if either?? Lol!) they support. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uilleachan Posted January 4, 2018 Report Share Posted January 4, 2018 22 minutes ago, Scully said: We’re mostly singing from the same song sheet, but I still can’t consider shooting game as ‘sport’. Don’t forget that it wasn’t the general public who banned fox hunting but a sympathetic government lobbied by ( amongst others ) The League Against Cruel ‘SPORTS’! , both riddled with class hatred. The reason we don’t shoot game on the ground ( as someone else has just pointed out ) is that there’s no fun in it; the challenge isn’t there. If you were shooting to sustain yourself and your family then you would shoot game on the ground, just like my dear old Dad used to do by head shooting pheasants and fowl with his .22. You and me don’t need to do that but because we contain the hunting gene we do it for recreation. If you want to give your quarry a ‘sporting’ chance throw your gun at it. Everything about wing shooting is biased towards giving every conceivable advantage to the shooter, not the quarry. Like someone said; forget about the antis, but you try telling a member of the general public you kill live quarry for your own entertainment and see what their reaction is. Clay pigeon shooting and other target shooting is a ‘sport’ and is recognised as such by the Olympic Committee and the world at large. Killing live game for any other reason than sustenance is entertainment. Ill totally agree that the relevant commercial shoots need to get their act together to address the situation regarding wastage, but trying to dress up what we do as anything else other than what it actually is, isn’t fooling anyone. Then we are roughly on the same paragraph. However, I'm a sporting shot (all be it not one of the best). Lets not lose sight of the meaning of the word "sport". It's a hijacked term thats now used to describe athletics and "wholesome" activities. But it's a wider term that encompasses everything from betting on the horses to shooting for recreation, many of us remember the pre highjacked term and how it's applicable to what we do. Be that snooker darts shooting running etc. lets not forget either that the much vaunted modern wholesome idea of "athletics" is an artificial modern construct, athletics were originally a sport in the true sense of the word, it was a cash prize sport with keen betting on the side. Just as "Forest" doesn't just mean a big stand of trees, actual meaning is: uncultivated ground set aside for game hunting. "Hill" isn't a humpy bit of land it's: uncultivated land set aside for summer livestock grazing. The meaning of terms changes over time, but that doesn't mean we have to up date the descriptions of our activities to suit modern interpretations imposed by changing fashions punditry and media hype. If you like, there's a distinction in the terms Sportsman and Sports man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AYA117 Posted January 4, 2018 Report Share Posted January 4, 2018 Or maybe the 'sport' comes from giving something 'a sporting chance' . As to 'enjoying it' yes of course we do ( If you do not,then go and do something else ) I know that this thread has strayed from the original post and has turned into a debate about game being wasted,burnt,burried etc. But that fact that you may enjoy a day shooting pheasants that have been reared purely for your enjoyment only to be discarded is not something that can so simply be brushed to one side ! There is a very real problem and it is happening now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted January 5, 2018 Report Share Posted January 5, 2018 The term ‘field sports’ harks back to a time when the landed gentry and aristocracy plus guests would ‘travel for the season’ to participate in their chosen ‘sport’. Further back the term was use to describe any hunting as the ‘sport of kings’ such as horse racing, and even further back to include falconry, as us mere plebs couldn’t afford to do it, hence falcons for kings and kestrels for knaves. The term field sports is I think unique to the UK,; simply being called hunting on the continent and elsewhere. The UK working classes have no tradition of field sports or hunting; it was exclusively for those supposedly socially elite. While I’d rather not be tarred with the same brush as the socially elite, we simply can’t deny the fact that without them we wouldn’t enjoy the shooting we do today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted January 5, 2018 Report Share Posted January 5, 2018 (edited) 33 minutes ago, Scully said: The term ‘field sports’ harks back to a time when the landed gentry and aristocracy plus guests would ‘travel for the season’ to participate in their chosen ‘sport’. Further back the term was use to describe any hunting as the ‘sport of kings’ such as horse racing, and even further back to include falconry, as us mere plebs couldn’t afford to do it, hence falcons for kings and kestrels for knaves. The term field sports is I think unique to the UK,; simply being called hunting on the continent and elsewhere. The UK working classes have no tradition of field sports or hunting; it was exclusively for those supposedly socially elite. While I’d rather not be tarred with the same brush as the socially elite, we simply can’t deny the fact that without them we wouldn’t enjoy the shooting we do today. You are cherry picking your answers! And in this case wrongly! The Oxford dictionary definition of 'field sports' is.........outdoor 'sports' especially hunting, SHOOTING and fishing! Wriggle all you like, it won't alter the fact that shooting is a 'sport' Edited January 5, 2018 by panoma1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted January 5, 2018 Report Share Posted January 5, 2018 43 minutes ago, panoma1 said: You are cherry picking your answers! And in this case wrongly! The Oxford dictionary definition of 'field sports' is.........outdoor 'sports' especially hunting, SHOOTING and fishing! Wriggle all you like, it won't alter the fact that shooting is a 'sport' I’m not cherry picking at all; whether it’s definition is in the dictionary or not the origins of the term are established in history. If you want to consider killing for leisure as a ‘sport’ or ‘sporting’, is entirely up to you; it won’t justify what you or I do in the eyes of those who don’t participate and it won’t ensure it’s future either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uilleachan Posted January 5, 2018 Report Share Posted January 5, 2018 Over complicating the word "Sport". In this wiki link they run off with the hijacked modern usage, competitive energetic activity. But further into the page we find the true meaning. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sport Quote for the link: "Etymology The word "Sport" comes from the Old French desport meaning "leisure", with the oldest definition in English from around 1300 being "anything humans find amusing or entertaining".[9] Other meanings include gambling and events staged for the purpose of gambling; hunting; and games and diversions, including ones that require exercise.[10] Roget's defines the noun sport as an "activity engaged in for relaxation and amusement" with synonyms including diversion and recreation" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stagboy Posted January 5, 2018 Report Share Posted January 5, 2018 Shooting is most definitely a sport, in the time-honoured sense of the word. No shame in that. Yet in many cases, ie it is more than "just" a sport; ie pigeon shooting is sport (ie a recreational use of skill) but also pest control - and also produces free-range food. Pheasant shooting is sport, food and commerce, helping to fund rural jobs and habitat management, with an element of sociability thrown in. Wildfowling is sport and food. And remember, meat is itself is recreational food these days - nobody in Western Europe actually has to eat meat. Again, no problem with that - but it's something some meat eaters who oppose "sporting" shooting seem to forget. Shooting a pheasant on the ground with a shotgun might be justified for food production, but some would say it isn't "sporting" in the accepted sense of giving the quarry fair chance and providing a test of skill. On the other hand, this is precisely how Americans shoot wild turkeys - and they consider that to be a very fine sport indeed, using fieldcraft, calling and cammo to good effect on a very alert and wary wild gamebird. In France, incidentally, hunting (including shooting) was enshrined as a general right of the people after the revolution, and in many areas today French hunters have right to roam in pursuit of quarry. Imagine that over here! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted January 5, 2018 Report Share Posted January 5, 2018 (edited) 42 minutes ago, Scully said: I’m not cherry picking at all; whether it’s definition is in the dictionary or not the origins of the term are established in history. If you want to consider killing for leisure as a ‘sport’ or ‘sporting’, is entirely up to you; it won’t justify what you or I do in the eyes of those who don’t participate and it won’t ensure it’s future either. You won't have it will you? The 'sport' is not in the killing! The sport is in the means/way you carry out the activity that may or may not lead to the death of the chosen quarry! I do not need to justify my conduct to anyone, what I am doing is legal and I carry it out in a way that is morally acceptable to myself, that said I would be prepared to debate my conduct with anyone without a pre decided anti shooting/protectionist agenda! On the other hand, I do not believe that commercial big bag shoots where the guns don't want the birds killed and/or there is no market for the meat could successfully do so? Edited January 5, 2018 by panoma1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted January 5, 2018 Report Share Posted January 5, 2018 27 minutes ago, panoma1 said: You won't have it will you? The 'sport' is not in the killing! The sport is in the means/way you carry out the activity that may or may not lead to the death of the chosen quarry! I do not need to justify my conduct to anyone, what I am doing is legal and I carry it out in a way that is morally acceptable to myself, that said I would be prepared to debate my conduct with anyone without a pre decided anti shooting/protectionist agenda! On the other hand, I do not believe that commercial big bag shoots where the guns don't want the birds killed and/or there is no market for the meat could successfully do so? You’re right; I won’t have it, for the simple reason that I don’t regard the killing of a wild animal for no other reason than enjoyment or entertainment as ‘sporting’, and neither, I’m pretty sure you’ll find, do the majority of the general public, whether it’s legal or not, nor defined as such in the dictionary. You can dress it up anyway you choose, but to try and justify it to yourself or the general public as morally acceptable because you regard it as ‘sporting’ is in my opinion, delusional. Further, as I’ve already stated, will it ensure it’s future. I can agree with your last paragraph to a point, but you’re still conveniently overlooking the fact that you’re killing for entertainment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ips Posted January 5, 2018 Report Share Posted January 5, 2018 1 hour ago, stagboy said: Shooting is most definitely a sport, in the time-honoured sense of the word. No shame in that. Yet in many cases, ie it is more than "just" a sport; ie pigeon shooting is sport (ie a recreational use of skill) but also pest control - and also produces free-range food. Pheasant shooting is sport, food and commerce, helping to fund rural jobs and habitat management, with an element of sociability thrown in. Wildfowling is sport and food. And remember, meat is itself is recreational food these days - nobody in Western Europe actually has to eat meat. Again, no problem with that - but it's something some meat eaters who oppose "sporting" shooting seem to forget. Shooting a pheasant on the ground with a shotgun might be justified for food production, but some would say it isn't "sporting" in the accepted sense of giving the quarry fair chance and providing a test of skill. On the other hand, this is precisely how Americans shoot wild turkeys - and they consider that to be a very fine sport indeed, using fieldcraft, calling and cammo to good effect on a very alert and wary wild gamebird. In France, incidentally, hunting (including shooting) was enshrined as a general right of the people after the revolution, and in many areas today French hunters have right to roam in pursuit of quarry. Imagine that over here! ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old'un Posted January 5, 2018 Report Share Posted January 5, 2018 Does it matter what we call it? the antis call blood sports. The crux of the matter is how we come across to the public, in an earlier post I pasted a piece from an anti of how they should cherry pick certain aspects of “field sports” shooting and bring that to the attention of the media, they will obviously pick what will have the greatest impact on public opinion and unfortunately commercial pheasant shooting and waste is just one of those cherry’s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ips Posted January 5, 2018 Report Share Posted January 5, 2018 12 minutes ago, Scully said: You’re right; I won’t have it, for the simple reason that I don’t regard the killing of a wild animal for no other reason than enjoyment or entertainment as ‘sporting’, and neither, I’m pretty sure you’ll find, do the majority of the general public, whether it’s legal or not, nor defined as such in the dictionary. You can dress it up anyway you choose, but to try and justify it to yourself or the general public as morally acceptable because you regard it as ‘sporting’ is in my opinion, delusional. Further, as I’ve already stated, will it ensure it’s future. I can agree with your last paragraph to a point, but you’re still conveniently overlooking the fact that you’re killing for entertainment. ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old'un Posted January 5, 2018 Report Share Posted January 5, 2018 Not really been involved with any large commercial shoots, but does anyone who as/is, know if they actually make a profit from this type of shooting? or is it a means to an end? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted January 5, 2018 Report Share Posted January 5, 2018 (edited) I repeat I do not "kill wild animals for no other reason than enjoyment or entertainment" do you? If you do? Go and buy a few dozen pheasants stick em in a small cage and blast away at them with your shotgun until they are all dead! Because that is killing animals "for no other reason than enjoyment or entertainment" equally shooting large numbers of pheasants commercially, when the guns don't want em and the meat is wasted............can probably be described as sic "killing wild animals for no other reason than enjoyment or entertainment"....and paying huge amounts of money to do so! over to you! Edited January 5, 2018 by panoma1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harnser Posted January 5, 2018 Report Share Posted January 5, 2018 Just heard today that panorama is putting out a program soon that was made under cover at one of the big Yorkshire shoots . Graphic footage of the bag being burned after the shoot . This will put the cat among the pigeons . harnser Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ips Posted January 5, 2018 Report Share Posted January 5, 2018 17 minutes ago, Harnser said: Just heard today that panorama is putting out a program soon that was made under cover at one of the big Yorkshire shoots . Graphic footage of the bag being burned after the shoot . This will put the cat among the pigeons . harnser that won't do any of us any favours ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted January 5, 2018 Report Share Posted January 5, 2018 Just now, ips said: that won't do any of us any favours ? Just now, ips said: that won't do any of us any favours ? Probably not and it will be predudist reporting unless they show the thousands of shoots that sell proceeds and put to go use the Game shot there is always going to be a fair amount of game that’s not fit for sale /consumption a sensible shooting estate will have a incinerator for the proper disposal of it maybe I should hold back until I’ve seen the program however its tv therefore it’ll work on sensationalism and not let the truth get in the way of a good story all the best of Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old'un Posted January 5, 2018 Report Share Posted January 5, 2018 34 minutes ago, Harnser said: Just heard today that panorama is putting out a program soon that was made under cover at one of the big Yorkshire shoots . Graphic footage of the bag being burned after the shoot . This will put the cat among the pigeons . harnser do you have a link to the story? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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