First shotgun

[Blacknsilver]

Lol 

I found that with rifles. 

[Ultrastu]

Thats very true .

I keep looking at another shotty. But im struggling to justify another in my head. 

 

Rifles ? Oh i have loads of them too 

[oldypigeonpopper]

hello, i never found much difference with a 20 bore weighing 6llb plus and a light O/U of 6.5llb using 28 grm, except the cost of cartridges 

[Uilleachan]

12g, 30", 2 3/4 or 3" chambers, 2nd hand. Ideally multi choked and steel proofed. But fixed and non works well too, but not as popular in the resale market.

One of the popular brands, helps with depreciation.  

I'd go somewhere with a knowledgeable staff and a big room full of 2nd hand guns to try for fit. Buy the one that fits best whilst meeting the criteria. 

Ammo, the ammo that patterns best for a given (choke) task.

Once you've shot it a bit, got with others discussing trying different guns etc. you can stay with it or move on to a different gun. I've e few sxs but bought a 525 sporter 1 when I was out looking for an o/u a few years back. 10mm stock spacer bought off the bay and cast off the adjustable comb 2mm, and the gun fits me well. I feel as if I should be buying a flasher gun, mechanical trigger etc. but no, this gun is working for me, on sporting DTL (could be a little heavier but I get by) and moderate fowling, for game I've got the sxs's if I'm walking miles.

20g? Not for a first gun. If you end up shooting ptarmigan on the high tops of the highlands 20g would be a consideration, but a body could buy a decent sxs 1/4 & half or 1/4 & full, that would weigh the same, for not a lot of money. 

[Zapp]

With regard to the felt recoil issue, if we are assuming our 12 bore and 20 bore 28g cartridges have a similar velocity then the thing that will make the difference is the weight of the gun, not the relative weights of propellant.  In most cases a 20 bore shotgun will be quite a bit lighter than a standard-weight 12, and so you're likely to perceive more recoil with the 20, again assuming it's 28g of shot going at the same rate.

There are other factors such as the dimensions of the forcing cones, headspace (as any Greener GP owner can attest) which can increase perceived recoil, but basic physics dictates that the same projectile at the same velocity from two guns, one light and one heavy, equals more and less recoil respectively. 

[WinchesterDave]

Hello mate, not what you suggested but have a look at the Winchester Select range. I got one as my first gun when I started out, and it has truly never let me down. It a fantastic gun and I will pick it up over my substantially more expensive Beretta 690 Field 3 Deluxe Ltd Edition. It will happily do whatever you ask of it - fowling,  clays and it won't look out of place on a driven day. 

 

Miroku, Browning and Beretta you really will not go wrong with but have a look and a feel of a few of the Selects to see how you feel with them mate

anyway good luck and you'll be made up with whatever it is you pick, I'm sure

Thanks,

Dave 

[Blacknsilver]

Thanks everyone for the help. Looking forward shopper and to shouldering a few different brands. 

Watch this space!

[Blacknsilver]

Well it looks like I have found a gun. 

Miroku MK60 30” barrels teagued with multi chokes and a grade 5. It’s ticked more boxes. LOP will need altering but feels and looks great. 

Job done. Thanks to all that’s helped. 

[motty]

On ‎01‎/‎09‎/‎2018 at 18:04, Ultrastu said:

Problem with that theory  .is that a 28 grm 20b isnt made the same as a 28 grm 12b .

The 12 needs more powder and a bigger bang to get its load up to the same speed as the 20b .which it can do as there is more room in the cart .

This gives you more noise and more felt recoil .in the 12 

I don't think that this is correct.

[Guest stevo]

On 01/09/2018 at 18:04, Ultrastu said:

Problem with that theory  .is that a 28 grm 20b isnt made the same as a 28 grm 12b .

The 12 needs more powder and a bigger bang to get its load up to the same speed as the 20b .which it can do as there is more room in the cart .

This gives you more noise and more felt recoil .in the 12 

??

[Ultrastu]

My understanding of this .is as follows .i maybe wrong .

If you set a very controlled explosion off in a tight space the pressure builds up (while being contained .) Till it cant be contained any more .and then the pressure is released violently ..

The smaller that area of containment the greater the pressure becomes .and hence the more violent the explosion .

If your end goal .is to get the same pressure explosion out of 2 different sized containment areas. Then you can reduce the fuel in the smaller area .

So a 20b cart  is about 20% smaller than a 12b so it follows that you need less powder to get the same pressure in the breech as the 12 b .and hence the same velocity from the shot .

Wether this leads to less recoil im not sure ..

I suspect it doesnt .as if 28 grm of lead is moving forward at a set rate of acceleration that force should have an equal and opposite reaction into the movement of the gun .

[Uilleachan]

On 4 September 2018 at 07:03, Blacknsilver said:

Well it looks like I have found a gun. 

Miroku MK60 30” barrels teagued with multi chokes and a grade 5. It’s ticked more boxes. LOP will need altering but feels and looks great. 

Job done. Thanks to all that’s helped. 

Well done 

[The Burpster]

13 hours ago, Ultrastu said:

My understanding of this .is as follows .i maybe wrong .

If you set a very controlled explosion off in a tight space the pressure builds up (while being contained .) Till it cant be contained any more .and then the pressure is released violently ..

The smaller that area of containment the greater the pressure becomes .and hence the more violent the explosion .

If your end goal .is to get the same pressure explosion out of 2 different sized containment areas. Then you can reduce the fuel in the smaller area .

So a 20b cart  is about 20% smaller than a 12b so it follows that you need less powder to get the same pressure in the breech as the 12 b .and hence the same velocity from the shot .

Wether this leads to less recoil im not sure ..

I suspect it doesnt .as if 28 grm of lead is moving forward at a set rate of acceleration that force should have an equal and opposite reaction into the movement of the gun .

All pretty accurate, except in a firearm it is a BURN not an explosion. Explosions are bad, burning good. 

Because if the smaller chamber diameter the volume is less therefore less powder required to start a burn creating a given pressure. In pure physics though if you accelerate a mass at an equal rate and the only difference is the resistance to that acceleration (in this case the mass of the shotgun) is less then it will produce a larger opposite reaction. So, in physics terms 28g in a lighter 20g shotgun will produce more recoil. 

In practical terms though it’s difficult to replicate the pressures you can achieve in a 20g in a 12g without using lot of slower burning powder, this produces more of a reaction over a longer period so “perceived” recoil is more. 20g short sharp shove, 12g slower longer shove......

 

although its kind of a moot point now as the OP has decided what gun he’s getting! ?

[Ultrastu]

Yeah but he didnt say which cal it was in .?

[bruno22rf]

Seem to remember that modern propellants "expand" rather than explode - Black Powder, however, explodes.

[Zapp]

10 minutes ago, bruno22rf said:

Seem to remember that modern propellants "expand" rather than explode - Black Powder, however, explodes.

Black powder delflagrates (fast-burns), rather than exploding. 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Very good!

[The Burpster]

1 hour ago, Ultrastu said:

Yeah but he didnt say which cal it was in .?

Good point! ???

[Ultrastu]

I used "explode" just to illustrate the 

Mechanism .but burn is better .

?

Then again 

The powder burns inside a compression chamber .cart inside a barrel .

Which leads to a pressure build up till it cant be contained anymore .so that is very much like an explosion. 

Potatoes / patatoes 

[Blacknsilver]

I though I would put my big boy trousers on and go with the 12g 

pictures to follow soon. 

Thanks again. 

[kentish]

@Blacknsilver I went through exactly this process, this time last year. Also 5'11" and fit, budget of ~£1k. I went round all the shops within a 45 minute drive, tried on loads of guns for fit: Berettas, brownings, bettinsoli, miroku etc. Didn't get chance to shoot any. Having only shot Berettas before I began assuming I'd get one of them but in the end I found the one that seemed to fit me best was a browning 525. It's a very nice gun to own and shoot, and I've been plugging away with it at clays, with moderate success.

A few months later I scratched the itch of buying a cheap hatsan escort, as a spare/laugh/possible pigeon/wildfowling gun in case I'm ever lucky enough to get somewhere to hunt. Yesterday I took it out to the clay ground with my father in law and shot with it properly for the first time, and discovered that it's a much better fit than the browning! Now I'm wondering what other guns have a similar fit to a gen 1 escort, but a bit posher

 

[Blacknsilver]

I am just trolling the market for Recoil pad or spacers to add to it to gain the length of pull. 

I can really comment but fit seems crucial. Good look on finding your next gun. 

[Bede]

I'm new to clay shooting and am also on the hunt for a gun.  Got my license through a couple of weeks ago.

 

I've been having lessons at Mickley Hall and they're happy to let me take any used or demo gun out of the shop to try on a lesson.  This has been invaluable as I've tried some I didn't really fancy and they've worked much better for me than ones I did fancy that ended up totally unsuitable for me.

 

Currently, I have the privilidge of using the gun of one of the owners, Scott Barnett, as he shoots a CG Summit Impact.  I arrived there after trying out a Fabarm Axis with the high rib.  I've now learned that the high rib set up is perfect for me as a big lanky ***.  The downside is that my original £1500 - £2k budget has now just leapt to £3.5K as I reckon I'll probably now opt for getting the CG.  But I'll live with that, because I know it'll be the right choice, having tried various different brands and set-up of gun.

 

I just need to learn to shoot the ****** so I don't look like an 'all the gear, no idea' berk!

[bruno22rf]

I understood that Black Powder "explodes" when confined? - as in a gun barrel?

[The Burpster]

40 minutes ago, bruno22rf said:

I understood that Black Powder "explodes" when confined? - as in a gun barrel?

Black powder deflagrate which is a burn all be it a fast one.... read this and hopefully will explain. It isn’t pressure sensitive ie it doesn’t burn quicker if under pressure which modern powders do, which is why they are less dangerous to handle and don’t require an explosive licence. Black powder burns fast, very fast all the time which is why it’s not so forgiving. 

 

http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/bp_burning/bp_burning.html

Edited September 7, 2018 by The Burpster
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