Discussion on western involvement in the middle east (split from Salisbury thread)

[scobydog]

8 minutes ago, Hamster said:

You didn't, tis sarcasm. 

mmmmm.

[grrclark]

Threads or discussions like this make me chuckle, the motive behind so many of the arguments is that we should not try to pigeon hole/stereotype/generalise people/races/cultures/religions as that simply leads to persecution and exploitation and in the argument they then subesquently go on to pigeon hole/stereotype/generalise people/races/cultures, etc so long as it suits their argument.

The undeniable truth is that us humans as a species are terribly feudal, we are territorial and factional and we like to fight those who are not part of our particular faction.  No matter which part of the world you choose to pick there is history back to the beginning of human kind where one faction has fought another.

No one side has the monopoly on being warmongering devils, we all are.

[henry d]

9 hours ago, grrclark said:

Threads or discussions like this make me chuckle, the motive behind so many of the arguments is that we should not try to pigeon hole/stereotype/generalise people/races/cultures/religions as that simply leads to persecution and exploitation and in the argument they then subesquently go on to pigeon hole/stereotype/generalise people/races/cultures, etc so long as it suits their argument.

The undeniable truth is that us humans as a species are terribly feudal, we are territorial and factional and we like to fight those who are not part of our particular faction.  No matter which part of the world you choose to pick there is history back to the beginning of human kind where one faction has fought another.

No one side has the monopoly on being warmongering devils, we all are.

No, its them! We have to have someone to blame because if we don`t have someone to point a finger at then it points at us all and that can`t be right!

(Contains traces of sarcasm)

[Westward]

13 hours ago, grrclark said:

The undeniable truth is that us humans as a species are terribly feudal, we are territorial and factional and we like to fight those who are not part of our particular faction.  No matter which part of the world you choose to pick there is history back to the beginning of human kind where one faction has fought another.

 

Which raises the point that when apportioning blame to one culture/nation/religion or another, it always depends on how far you want to go back.

For example, no one knows quite when slavery began, but large scale slavery certainly existed in the Old Kingdom of ancient Egypt at least 4,500 years ago. The Romans too built their system around having slaves to do almost everything the Roman citizens didn't want to do.  Consequently neither Britain nor America invented slavery, despite what certain elements try to claim,  but there's no denying that we did industrialise it. In any event, despite all the laws and Acts, the slave trade has continued in one form or another right up to the present.

As for wars, the region we now call the Middle East hasn't known peace for well over 5,000 years. Invasions, occupations, internecine slaughter etc., have been a constant. Blaming everything on the Crusades is a perfect example of picking one topic and excluding all else. Jerusalem was a sacred city to 2 major religions when the Muslims decide to occupy it. Bearing in mind that the warlike Caliphate had already invaded and taken control of most of the Arab crescent before taking Jerusalem. The 1st Crusade was not fighting peasants or peaceful herdsmen but a disciplined, aggressive, expansionist military state. The Crusades left the region in enough turmoil that the Ottoman Empire was able to easily replace the Caliphate of 300 years earlier, but don't let's kid ourselves;  the Ottomans have nothing to be proud of either in their treatment of the Arabs.

The situation now is not just a product of Western interference nor is it simply because of the oil reserves either. To this day there are seething undercurrents of tribal, religious and internecine hatreds right across the crescent and with non Arab Sunni nations such as Iran supplying weapons and logistics to anyone fighting against the hated Shia nations and their allies and and of course Israel and the West. As usual dear old Putin's Russia is cosy with Iran and propping up their best customer, Bashir, the special needs younger son of Hafez Al-Assad. The mad Bashir of course, wouldn't have been the Syrian President but for the death of his older brother in a car accident.

Again, we in the West aren't responsible for the thousands of years of regional strife or the hundreds of years of religious hatred, or the tiny gene pool caused by marrying 1st cousins etc. (a sorry practice still common to Muslims, even here) leading to a high percentage of mentally defective people such as Bashir.  But it is undeniable that over the last 150 years our (and Russia's) unwarranted interference and especially our military technology, has multiplied the capability of the warring factions to deliver death and suffering to previously unheard of levels.

[Rewulf]

Excellent post Westward 👍

[Scully]

2 hours ago, Westward said:

Which raises the point that when apportioning blame to one culture/nation/religion or another, it always depends on how far you want to go back.

For example, no one knows quite when slavery began, but large scale slavery certainly existed in the Old Kingdom of ancient Egypt at least 4,500 years ago. The Romans too built their system around having slaves to do almost everything the Roman citizens didn't want to do.  Consequently neither Britain nor America invented slavery, despite what certain elements try to claim,  but there's no denying that we did industrialise it. In any event, despite all the laws and Acts, the slave trade has continued in one form or another right up to the present.

As for wars, the region we now call the Middle East hasn't known peace for well over 5,000 years. Invasions, occupations, internecine slaughter etc., have been a constant. Blaming everything on the Crusades is a perfect example of picking one topic and excluding all else. Jerusalem was a sacred city to 2 major religions when the Muslims decide to occupy it. Bearing in mind that the warlike Caliphate had already invaded and taken control of most of the Arab crescent before taking Jerusalem. The 1st Crusade was not fighting peasants or peaceful herdsmen but a disciplined, aggressive, expansionist military state. The Crusades left the region in enough turmoil that the Ottoman Empire was able to easily replace the Caliphate of 300 years earlier, but don't let's kid ourselves;  the Ottomans have nothing to be proud of either in their treatment of the Arabs.

The situation now is not just a product of Western interference nor is it simply because of the oil reserves either. To this day there are seething undercurrents of tribal, religious and internecine hatreds right across the crescent and with non Arab Sunni nations such as Iran supplying weapons and logistics to anyone fighting against the hated Shia nations and their allies and and of course Israel and the West. As usual dear old Putin's Russia is cosy with Iran and propping up their best customer, Bashir, the special needs younger son of Hafez Al-Assad. The mad Bashir of course, wouldn't have been the Syrian President but for the death of his older brother in a car accident.

Again, we in the West aren't responsible for the thousands of years of regional strife or the hundreds of years of religious hatred, or the tiny gene pool caused by marrying 1st cousins etc. (a sorry practice still common to Muslims, even here) leading to a high percentage of mentally defective people such as Bashir.  But it is undeniable that over the last 150 years our (and Russia's) unwarranted interference and especially our military technology, has multiplied the capability of the warring factions to deliver death and suffering to previously unheard of levels.

Beat me to it; was just about to say that myself! 🙂

Good post. 👍

[henry d]

6 hours ago, Westward said:

Which raises the point that when apportioning blame to one culture/nation/religion or another, it always depends on how far you want to go back.

For example, no one knows quite when slavery began, but large scale slavery certainly existed in the Old Kingdom of ancient Egypt at least 4,500 years ago. The Romans too built their system around having slaves to do almost everything the Roman citizens didn't want to do.  Consequently neither Britain nor America invented slavery, despite what certain elements try to claim,  but there's no denying that we did industrialise it. In any event, despite all the laws and Acts, the slave trade has continued in one form or another right up to the present.

The idea of slaves in the ANE 000`s of years ago is a far cry from the slavery in modern times. An ANE slave back then could have quite easily have asked to become a slave through necessity and many of the covenants about slaves then had stipulations for the care of and length of contracts for example, none of that for modern and post modern slaves.

[Westward]

21 hours ago, henry d said:

The idea of slaves in the ANE 000`s of years ago is a far cry from the slavery in modern times. An ANE slave back then could have quite easily have asked to become a slave through necessity and many of the covenants about slaves then had stipulations for the care of and length of contracts for example, none of that for modern and post modern slaves.

I've yet to work out what "Post Modern" actually means. My old English Master would have had a meltdown over such a nonsense term!

The problem with flat out statements of fact over what the Ancient Egyptians did or did not do is that there were three "Kingdoms". Egyptologists assume they were contiguous despite no actual proof to that effect, plus there is the overall timespan of 3,000+ years. But, even if Egyptian slaves were volunteers and treated with respect, they were still slaves as were the Roman slaves who certainly were not volunteers and were bought and sold as commodities rather than people. Personally I don't regard ancient Rome as either "Modern" or "Post Modern".

[henry d]

Indeed, ancient Rome was as you say ancient and yes they were bought and sold, but many were educated people who found work by selling themselves into slavery and most slaves were treated well as they were a commodity that was appreciated, unfortunately TV and film culturally appropriated it to look like the atlantic/african slavery of the 16-19th centuries. Today it is as bad or even worse as then because there is a demand for sex (adult and child) slaves/forced prostitution, debt labour, drug labour/county lines, child soldiers...

Good for your old english "master" even the term you use has power written all over it and it won`t be long before such terms are also languishing in the dust.

[Rewulf]

6 minutes ago, henry d said:

Indeed, ancient Rome was as you say ancient and yes they were bought and sold, but many were educated people who found work by selling themselves into slavery and most slaves were treated well as they were a commodity that was appreciated, unfortunately TV and film culturally appropriated it to look like the atlantic/african slavery of the 16-19th centuries. Today it is as bad or even worse as then because there is a demand for sex (adult and child) slaves/forced prostitution, debt labour, drug labour/county lines, child soldiers...

Good for your old english "master" even the term you use has power written all over it and it won`t be long before such terms are also languishing in the dust.

Oh dear Henry, really ?

Does a teacher not have 'power' over a pupil ? Is it not within his power to educate, did you not refer to your teachers as 'Sir' ?
They still do, but although they cannot administer corporal punishment these days, they can still sanction.
Can you imagine an education system with out teacher authority ?
Authority is necessary in education, as is parent authority.
Not just because they are older, but because they are put in a position of authority, the authority to teach you about the life you are going on to lead.

To equate that to a master / servant relationship is ridiculous !

What about when you go on to employment, is there not a 'boss' is that equatable to a slave master, or a chain gang ?!
You have drifted into weird territory here.

Correct about people selling themselves into slavery in Roman times, usually to pay off a debt, or simply to be fed and clothed upon becoming destitute, this was usually a agreement that protected the slave within law, and usually had an end date, with rights protected in law.
A slave captured in battle had no rights, but had a value, so was not something to be abused or damaged, they were property.
The difference with the African slave trade is , whilst they were  'property' and had a value, they were not considered as equal to a white human, more cattle like.
This attitude pervades to this day in some cultures, and not necessarily white ones.

[henry d]

Your tangent, so here goes...

 

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Oh dear Henry, really ? Now who is trying to wield the power of words, please don’t do it? I used the above to show the problem with people’s ideas and how they are grounded in their culture, as he used master rather than teacher, it was nothing to do with master/slave/servant relations. Thanks for calling me dear BTW!

Does a teacher not have 'power' over a pupil ? Is it not within his power to educate, did you not refer to your teachers as 'Sir' ? No it is not within their "power" to educate, it is their job to educate, and remember there are now some women who teach.
They still do, but although they cannot administer corporal punishment these days, they can still sanction.
Can you imagine an education system with out teacher authority ? Yes it works brilliantly; Kunskapsskolen (sp?) in Stockholm has been doing this since around 2001 and has now been rolling its personalised approach to education not just in Sweden but in the UK, USA, middle and far east. Before that you could look at the work of Paulo Freire, and before that the village colleges and community schools methodology of Henry Morris.
Authority is necessary in education, (No it isn`t see above)   as is parent authority.
Not just because they are older, but because they are put in a position of authority, the authority to teach you about the life you are going on to lead. They do nothing of the sort, they tip out information into a person`s head as they have to do it that way due to the social and political milieu they find themselves in and cannot get out of.

To equate that to a master / servant relationship is ridiculous ! As above, it was meant to show the way people use words that come from their culture and which are based on a particular worldview, how many people talk of their English/French/maths “master” today, not many

What about when you go on to employment, is there not a 'boss' is that equatable to a slave master, or a chain gang ?! No, that is patently ridiculous in these times, your employer does not imprison you and take away some (many/all) of your rights
You have drifted into weird territory here.

Apologies to the OP

[Rewulf]

3 minutes ago, henry d said:

Your tangent, so here goes...

 

Apologies to the OP

'What about when you go on to employment, is there not a 'boss' is that equatable to a slave master, or a chain gang ?! No, that is patently ridiculous in these times, your employer does not imprison you and take away some (many/all) of your rights'

This bit was clearly sarcasm but hey ho!

So your ideal education system would involve no discipline, no punishment and no 'tipping information into their heads' ?
Good luck with that.
Are we going to get back to reality at some point ?

[Westward]

10 hours ago, henry d said:

Indeed, ancient Rome was as you say ancient and yes they were bought and sold, but many were educated people who found work by selling themselves into slavery and most slaves were treated well as they were a commodity that was appreciated, unfortunately TV and film culturally appropriated it to look like the atlantic/african slavery of the 16-19th centuries. Today it is as bad or even worse as then because there is a demand for sex (adult and child) slaves/forced prostitution, debt labour, drug labour/county lines, child soldiers...

Good for your old english "master" even the term you use has power written all over it and it won`t be long before such terms are also languishing in the dust.

Henry, I've done with this topic. Life's too short to argue with lefties.

[henry d]

20 hours ago, Rewulf said:

'What about when you go on to employment, is there not a 'boss' is that equatable to a slave master, or a chain gang ?! No, that is patently ridiculous in these times, your employer does not imprison you and take away some (many/all) of your rights'

This bit was clearly sarcasm but hey ho! Not even remotely

So your ideal education system would involve no discipline, no punishment and no 'tipping information into their heads' ?
Good luck with that.
Are we going to get back to reality at some point ?

As soon as you remove the hegemony of the present education system you don`t need strict discipline, the reflective practices and education that is tailored to need rather than by age group works, google Kunskapsskolen and see the reality.

[Rewulf]

40 minutes ago, henry d said:

As soon as you remove the hegemony of the present education system you don`t need strict discipline, the reflective practices and education that is tailored to need rather than by age group works, google Kunskapsskolen and see the reality.

Part of the reason we have an underclass of vicious yobs in the  making, is BECAUSE we have removed strict discipline from the education system.
Im sorry Henry, but that nice system might work in a nice village school.
But you put that into practice into an inner city area, with multiple languages and cultures, boiling away in a big fat melting pot of 'diversity' and you will get chaos, as in more chaos than what we have now.
You can blame poverty and drug/gang culture, you can blame all kinds of things on the 'why' its failing.
But in my humble opinion, its the LACK of education, that is most responsible, and its lacking because there is no discipline to MAKE people get an education.
A young person who has come out of school not knowing how to string a sentence together, or do simple maths, is likely going to be a candidate for criminality, but who has failed him ?
You would say the education system I suspect, but if it has no real power to make him attend school, and actually learn something while hes there, then how can it be ?
Discipline, and if school is a hegemony, thats because it needs to be, otherwise its going to get walked all over, and gain no respect.
How can you be taught , if you have no respect for the teacher ?

[SpringDon]

16 hours ago, Westward said:

Henry, I've done with this topic. Life's too short to argue with lefties.

Oh no it isn’t.

[KB1]

On 07/09/2018 at 22:15, Retsdon said:

It sounds like you were in a terrible place. Where was that?

Sorry, I've just noticed your post.

I've worked in a few Middle Eastern countries, but the one I was referring to above is Kuwait, and the examples I gave are only the tip of the iceberg.

[henry d]

5 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Part of the reason we have an underclass of vicious yobs in the  making, is BECAUSE we have removed strict discipline from the education system. Agreed in part, but that isn`t what I said, if you use the principal I outlined it does work.
Im sorry Henry, but that nice system might work in a nice village school. Remember this is Stockholm where it first started out in clean living, furniture making, hugge loving Sweden
But you put that into practice into an inner city area, with multiple languages and cultures, boiling away in a big fat melting pot of 'diversity' and you will get chaos, as in more chaos than what we have now. See above, re. Stockholm
You can blame poverty and drug/gang culture, you can blame all kinds of things on the 'why' its failing.
But in my humble opinion, its the LACK of education, that is most responsible, and its lacking because there is no discipline to MAKE people get an education.
A young person who has come out of school not knowing how to string a sentence together, or do simple maths, is likely going to be a candidate for criminality, but who has failed him ? Parents? The good ole interweb, electronic babysitting, caffeinated drinks, overstimulation, poor sleep patterns, peer pressure, a system of education that is not fit for purpose...
You would say the education system I suspect, but if it has no real power to make him attend school, and actually learn something while hes there, then how can it be ? I did say that, but it wasn`t a single answer, as you probably know " For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong!"
Discipline, and if school is a hegemony, thats because it needs to be, otherwise its going to get walked all over, and gain no respect. Our government is hegemonic, does it have respect and control of its people, has it control of education, policing, prisons, health? If it had respect firstly then it would have a better control of that power (cf. Machiavelli [sp])
How can you be taught , if you have no respect for the teacher ? I`m sure there are many other teachers that people can think of who they had little respect for but the job got done, Mr.M-F at our school was one whereas Tosh and Walshaw were respected because they respected the young people in their class and their views.

Once more apologies to the op

[Gordon R]

How did this thread sink so low?

[Retsdon]

6 hours ago, KB1 said:

Sorry, I've just noticed your post.

I've worked in a few Middle Eastern countries, but the one I was referring to above is Kuwait, and the examples I gave are only the tip of the iceberg.

Our experiences differ then. I worked in Kuwait for a while. The kids riding the buses were a pest, but I never witnessed anything like you describe. Been in Saudi for more than a decade now and I have to say that generally I've found the Saudis to be OK. Less arrogant than the Kuwaitis and with a better sense of humour. I gather that travelling alone in parts of Qassim  - you're talking the heart of Wahhabi Bedu country - can be a bit hairy if you don't speak the language, but never having been I couldn't say. And by spme accounts you can meed hostility in hick towns like Hafr Al Batin as well. But for my own part I've never felt the least bit threatened in Saudi, in fact quite the opposite.  On a few occasions I've had Saudis actually get in their cars and have me follow them to show me a location or route when I've got lost and asked for directions. And if you've got kids with you they'll invariably stop their cars and let you cross a road in a shopping mall or wherever, even when there's no real need. Other than the parking and the driving, I've also found them to be very polite. Dunno...

I'm not denying your experiences, but I think it would be unfair for everyone in the Middle East to be judged by them because from what I know from my own and other western colleagues, what you described is not typical. Were you with the military - because they're a whole different breed?

[Rewulf]

Apparently there is some talk of another fake Syrian chemical attack in the pipeline.
People on the ground have seen white helmets and other rebel groups filming chemical attack scenes.
Obviously there are still some tomahawks and stormshadows that are reaching their use by dates.

[Hamster]

17 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Apparently there is some talk of another fake Syrian chemical attack in the pipeline.
People on the ground have seen white helmets and other rebel groups filming chemical attack scenes.
Obviously there are still some tomahawks and stormshadows that are reaching their use by dates.

Yep and Russia has forewarned of its impending fake attack by the Western backed "friendly terrorists/Al Qaeda/A Nusra/heart munchers/future European cities bombers for several days now. 

Idlib is the last stronghold of these scumbags and murica is not best pleased. This is one of many such warnings on social media : 

"Can you remember the US 17 years ago today?

Do you remember how every American having been told by their "leaders" that Al-Qaeda was behind the attack on the World Trade Centre screamed for bloody revenge?

Al-Qaeda represented everything that is evil in this world.

I wonder how the same Americans feel today about their leaders willing to take them to war to protect the same Al Qaeda against the people that are actually fighting Al Qaeda.

Wake up or shut up." George Ades 

More from the same source : 

" Isn't it "ironic" that countries like Saudi Arabia and Qatar, that have no connection with democracy, have joined the US and the other western jackals to "bring democracy" to Syria?

And their method of "bringing this democracy" is through sponsoring the biggest terrorist army the world has ever seen!

Wake up, or shut up! "

[Retsdon]

33 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Apparently there is some talk of another fake Syrian chemical attack in the pipeline.

The hawks of the US War Party - Nikki Haley, Bolton, etc, aren't happy about Assad and Putin finally winning the war in Syria. Naturally they'll try to trump up an excuse for one last spiteful and pointless orgy of long distance violence.

[Hamster]

The White Helmets are going for another Oscar. 

[Scully]

Give me strength.