Alleged Russian assassins on TV

[Rewulf]

13 minutes ago, timps said:

Are you ok with the official story given of two gay Russian tourists going to look at a church, who are really rubbish at booking return flights and they have doppelgangers in the GRU?

Not in the slightest, Ive stated before the Russians are lying.
But in the absence of a sensible motive, and bearing in mind the massive plot holes in the official narrative, I dont believe  the official version either.
And plenty of other people dont .
So roll up bellingcat with implausible stories of simply googling about , watching youtube, and you expose the whole of Russias masterplan for world domination ?
They keep talking about checking databases, like you can just grab any person in the worlds personal information.
Read the entire report on Mishkin from bellingcats page, its hilarious !

[12gauge82]

18 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Not in the slightest, Ive stated before the Russians are lying.
But in the absence of a sensible motive, and bearing in mind the massive plot holes in the official narrative, I dont believe  the official version either.
And plenty of other people dont .
So roll up bellingcat with implausible stories of simply googling about , watching youtube, and you expose the whole of Russias masterplan for world domination ?
They keep talking about checking databases, like you can just grab any person in the worlds personal information.
Read the entire report on Mishkin from bellingcats page, its hilarious !

I'm not trying to jump on you here, our views often align and you almost always in my opinion offer very reasonable and logic assessment in debates on here. I have got to disagree with you here though, the credible evidence all seems to point at russia, nothing has been offered that would reasonably seem to contradict that and Russia has a huge motive, Putin no less call him something along the lines of a traitor publicly, unless that was somehow CGI fake news to.

Like I've said before, I do not believe our government is any better at times, but unless I see something to  the contrary this case appears to be obvious, to me anyway, you obviously have the right to see things differently.

[Rewulf]

13 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

our views often align and you almost always in my opinion offer very reasonable and logic assessment in debates on here

Thank you.
To some unfortunately ,I have lost the plot 😄

But Im not the only one who finds the whole narrative simply doesnt add up.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/skripals-bellingcat-gru-novichok-anatoly-chepiga-alexander-mishkin-putin-russia-a8577161.html

Whilst Im admittedly not offering an alternative narrative, what Im try to get people to do, is examine the story a little more objectively.
Just because something is printed, or on TV, does not make it true, or a fact, or proof.

As Ive said before, there may be a fact that is known to our government, that they dont want public knowledge, it may be a piece of information (I wont speculate) that makes every bit of contradictory evidence make sense.

The lack of lethality and motive still remain big negatives, amongst many others, IMHO, and a general willingness to pin the blame squarely at Vlads door.
If these issues didnt exist, neither would this thread.

[Gordon R]

Quote

The lack of lethality and motive still remain big negatives

Lack of motive??????????????????????? Are you 'avin' a larf?

[oowee]

That was in interesting article (above) from the Indy 👍

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, Gordon R said:

Lack of motive??????????????????????? Are you 'avin' a larf?

Ok, not a  very good motive then, and not one worthy of such esteemed 'heroes of Russia'
They would have been better off getting one of the winos out the park to do it for a £20 

 

12 minutes ago, oowee said:

That was in interesting article (above) from the Indy 👍

I thought so, theres plenty more like it on less well known blogs ect.https://medium.com/@jrbml.public/the-skripal-incident-and-bellingcat-881d85660dfd
Makes me feel less like the only loony in the asylum 😉

[Gordon R]

Put simply - the Russians have lied. They paraded the two on TV knowing full well they travelled on false passports. The UK have not lied - that you or I know of, yet you still insist the case has not been made.

I think you are merely a wind up merchant.

[henry d]

12 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

I thought so, theres plenty more like it on less well known blogs ect.https://medium.com/@jrbml.public/the-skripal-incident-and-bellingcat-881d85660dfd
Makes me feel less like the only loony in the asylum 😉

Ok, Im back in.

You use James Bell as a part of your argument against bellingcat as they are biased, getting money from someone etc. Yet he is a Marxist Leninist writer? You rubbished the Huff post in the PM thread as it is "pro remain, left wing, BS news outlet" to support your view, that is pretty selective, surely you can`t just go and pick a blog/news article to fit your argument?

There are holes on the many sides of the argument but the facts are that several people were poisoned, one killed by someone, and despite all the footage, poor pictures, even poorer video rebuttals, there is no other actual physical suspects.

Unfortunately you are letting your penchant for conspiracy theories, and the power/buzz that having the real and only truth, get the better of you.

[Rewulf]

15 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

 

I think you are merely a wind up merchant.

You are entitled to your opinion Gordon.
Doesnt make you right though.

 

6 minutes ago, henry d said:

Ok, Im back in.

You use James Bell as a part of your argument against bellingcat as they are biased, getting money from someone etc. Yet he is a Marxist Leninist writer? You rubbished the Huff post in the PM thread as it is "pro remain, left wing, BS news outlet" to support your view, that is pretty selective, surely you can`t just go and pick a blog/news article to fit your argument?

There are holes on the many sides of the argument but the facts are that several people were poisoned, one killed by someone, and despite all the footage, poor pictures, even poorer video rebuttals, there is no other actual physical suspects.

Unfortunately you are letting your penchant for conspiracy theories, and the power/buzz that having the real and only truth, get the better of you.

I knew someone would seize on that ! 
Im not basing my entire opinion on one blogger that I had never heard of before today 😄

You too are entitled to your opinion Henry, and for the record, I dont know the truth, so where Im getting my 'power buzz' from is anyones guess.
I do not agree with the official narrative, for reasons I have stated.
If you dont agree with them, fair enough, we shall move on and talk about transexuals and Brexit if you like ?
Or maybe guns and fieldsport ?

[timps]

3 hours ago, Rewulf said:

But Im not the only one who finds the whole narrative simply doesnt add up.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/skripals-bellingcat-gru-novichok-anatoly-chepiga-alexander-mishkin-putin-russia-a8577161.html

I personally think the independent article is terrible, a lot of words that doesn’t say or prove anything. This is a classic piece of narrative over any fact.

Pretty much all of the questions she asks have answers or are so irrelevant that its untrue.

The statement  “But no UK court would convict them of even attempted killing on the “evidence” that has so far been produced.”

That is the case in every instance in the UK, we don’t have trial by media, the police never release all of the evidence before a trial to the media. All they release is the evidence they need to help identify  persons of interest which is what they did.  That in itself explains the majority of her questions of plot holes on available evidence.

I agree with her on Bellingcat funding  though and I quote “ That need not cast doubt on its findings.” So at least on that we agree.

I also probably agree on the intelligence services  giving Bellingcat a hand, every news agency in the world has a source.  Think of Deep Throat and Watergate, does this mean Nixon really wasn’t a crook  due to the push in the right direction from a source.

Easiest way to sort this is put the 2 tourist and the 2 doppelgangers in a room on TV at the same time, using the logic in the independent article means because this hasn’t happened means they are guilty due to lack of credibility of not succumbing  to the media circus.

 

 

 

Edited October 10, 2018 by timps

[Rewulf]

7 minutes ago, timps said:

 

Easiest way to sort this is put the 2 tourist and the 2 doppelgangers in a room on TV at the same time, using the logic in the independent article means because this hasn’t happened means they are guilty due to lack of credibility of not succumbing  to the media circus.

 

Easiest way to kill (with a Russian nerve toxin if you must ) an unprotected Russian ex spy, is to anonymously hire a professional hit man to do it, is it not ? But...

Putin - 'Need Skripal killing, make it happen '

Boris - ' Hold my vodka, I have simple plan !' 

 

[Mungler]

But that’s your bottom line ‘the Russians made such a bad job of bumping him off’ it couldn’t have been them.

That’s not evidence. It’s conjecture rebutted but the hapless GRU agents caught last week trying to scan and hack the network of the global chemical weopans watchdog.

Ah, don’t tell me, that’s all nonsense too and you have a link to a website run by some bloke in his bedroom who loves to sport a tin foil hat and who thinks otherwise.

 

 

[Rewulf]

2 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Ah, don’t tell me, that’s all nonsense too and you have a link to a website run by some bloke in his bedroom 

That's bellingcat  isn't it ? 🤗

[GingerCat]

So a Russian defector who outed over 300 russian agents in western Europe and the US (making snowden look like an amateur) and who putin said is a traitor and should die, is poisoned by a nerve agent created in Russia just before the world cup and a Russian election. 

They could have run him over and made it look like a car crash or any number of other things but they didn't. There was a distinctly russian flavour to it all. Just enough to remain deniable at first but clearly russian.

48 hours later the British say it's Russia and wont reveal how they know. Why would they ? No doubt as it would reveal capability. The rest of the world agree and expel russian diplomats  and spies. A decision not taken over morning coffee. 

9 months later (or however long it's been) the rest of the world catch up. The 2 men are not "nothing special" civilians but holders of the highest military honours given to russians. Issued by Putin himself. Their passport photos are public record. This car registered to the Gru (sloppy to say the least). 

One is a colonel from the Gru decorated for covert actions. The other a top military Dr. A good team to nip abroad and squirt some nerve agent on a door handle perhaps?

They were paraded on tv with the flimiest most see through story ever. The snow made them go back? Really. The snow. Half of russia is covered in snow at any one time but a few flakes and the two very physically capable men who travelled half way round the world to look at a big church turn for home. Right o.

This was punishment for not doing their job properly. 

Other russians are caught hacking the opcw and expelled. Images published of it taking place. 

And yet people still think there is no motive, No evidence, it's all made up. "That's what they want young think". 

Why do "they" want us to think anything? We aren't going to war with Russia. There really is no benefit in making up a poisoning on our own soil of a defector unless we wanted to look like total idiots humiliated on a world stage who can't look after defectors. If we wanted him dead I'm pretty sure we are as good as any other government in making it happen.  

The gold star goes to Russia in all this. Their propaganda campaign is truly first class. 

[Mungler]

And that as they say is that in a nutshell.

 

[Rewulf]

Sorted then , I'm converted, hallelujah !

Thanks for that 😊

[GingerCat]

15 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Sorted then , I'm converted, hallelujah !

Thanks for that 😊

Thank God for that. I thought you were taking it seriously for a moment....

[timps]

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Easiest way to kill (with a Russian nerve toxin if you must ) an unprotected Russian ex spy, is to anonymously hire a professional hit man to do it, is it not ? But...

Putin - 'Need Skripal killing, make it happen '

Boris - ' Hold my vodka, I have simple plan !' 

 

Where would you get one of them from?

The guild of international hitmen? The dark web?

ahhhh.... Google... oh no they fund Bellingcat best scratch that one.

How would you know they were any good, by them sending an extensive portfolio of successful hits to an anonymous client?

Yep sure way of keeping it secret.

No, you do as every country in the world does use your own guys, Mossad does the same thing, they were successful but identified in Dubai and what about polonium in sushi bar they got away with that one.

As for being a massive failure Novichok was undetectable by the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons Central Analytical Database until sometime in 2016, the Russians were obviously caught by surprise on our capability and treating of it and detecting it. If the Skripal’s had gone inside and not come out they would have died and there would have been just a coroner’s inquest which would be just an unexplained death no need to hide from CCTV or the like… Well that was the plan …. Not the first time this there has been an unexplained death of a Russian on UK soil...

Just this one was exposed because the Skripal’s went out again.

Well there is my conspiracy  theory on it, I might starting writing for the independent as it's as good as any I have read so far...😉

[hambone]

9 minutes ago, timps said:

Where would you get one of them from?

The guild of international hitmen? The dark web?

ahhhh.... Google... oh no they fund Bellingcat best scratch that one.

How would you know they were any good, by them sending an extensive portfolio of successful hits to an anonymous client?

Yep sure way of keeping it secret.

No, you do as every country in the world does use your own guys, Mossad does the same thing, they were successful but identified in Dubai and what about polonium in sushi bar they got away with that one.

As for being a massive failure Novichok was undetectable by the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons Central Analytical Database until sometime in 2016, the Russians were obviously caught by surprise on our capability and treating of it and detecting it. If the Skripal’s had gone inside and not come out they would have died and there would have been just a coroner’s inquest which would be just an unexplained death no need to hide from CCTV or the like… Well that was the plan …. Not the first time this there has been an unexplained death of a Russian on UK soil...

Just this one was exposed because the Skripal’s went out again.

Well there is my conspiracy  theory on it, I might starting writing for the independent as it's as good as any I have read so far...😉

sounds about right 

[Mungler]

Logic and probability can be everyone’s friend 😆

Anyways, there’s going to be more to come on this, so until the next instalment...

[Gordon R]

Quote

The gold star goes to Russia in all this. Their propaganda campaign is truly first class. 

I mentioned this some pages ago.

[henry d]

14 hours ago, Mungler said:

But that’s your bottom line ‘the Russians made such a bad job of bumping him off’ it couldn’t have been them.

On the 12th may 1982 (LTBAD) I was on HMS Glasgow and we had been pummelling Argentinian defences around Port Stanley with 00`s of 4.5" shells over two nights, so they sent out some A4`s to stop us and possibly break our defence line and attack the carriers. HMS Brilliant`s sea wolf missiles hit one wave, but due to the next wave coming in at a different angle it was not deemed a threat (to Brilliant) by the system so it did not fire at them and our 4.5 and sea dart failed too, so we were hit by a 1000lb bomb, which failed to explode and entered stbd just above the waterline in the aft engine room and exited port right on the waterline.

The problems were many and I won`t bore you, but it goes to show that even with the best of kit, and excellent expertise things can and do go wrong at times, the world is not full of GI Joes, James Bonds or Jason Bournes.

[Gordon R]

Glad you and the rest of the crew survived - against the odds.

[Mungler]

Blimey

[SpringDon]

1 hour ago, henry d said:

On the 12th may 1982 (LTBAD) I was on HMS Glasgow and we had been pummelling Argentinian defences around Port Stanley with 00`s of 4.5" shells over two nights, so they sent out some A4`s to stop us and possibly break our defence line and attack the carriers. HMS Brilliant`s sea wolf missiles hit one wave, but due to the next wave coming in at a different angle it was not deemed a threat (to Brilliant) by the system so it did not fire at them and our 4.5 and sea dart failed too, so we were hit by a 1000lb bomb, which failed to explode and entered stbd just above the waterline in the aft engine room and exited port right on the waterline.

The problems were many and I won`t bore you, but it goes to show that even with the best of kit, and excellent expertise things can and do go wrong at times, the world is not full of GI Joes, James Bonds or Jason Bournes.

I don’t like to point fingers. But your shells probably annoyed them, and that’s why they bombed you. Sometimes you have to put yourself in the other person’s shoes.