Brexit - merged threads

[oowee]

9 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

Don't panic mate, as much as I'd like to see it, disMay will never give us a WTO brexit, I'm thinking of sticking a hefty investment linked to us remaining in alignment with the EU despite the fact it's the last thing I want to happen (except a free trade deal of course, but I can't see the EU being that reasonable)

Free trade deal or WTO terms will both require close alignment with the customer markets. So your bet will be safe. 

[old man]

La Grenouille, of whichever persuasion deserve better imho. 

[pinfireman]

15 hours ago, oowee said:

Free trade deal or WTO terms will both require close alignment with the customer markets. So your bet will be safe. 

As 99% of ALL our goods are in alignment with those of the EU, after 40 years, then it should NOT be a problem!

On 21/12/2018 at 13:09, oowee said:

Same reasons as eire and france. Pinefire was talking earlier ( poor it cannot do extensive quote) that Eire was buying land ready for border chaos unlike the UK. I was making the point that this is incorect. The UK has been making extensive preps on the land front. 

It has also been making contingency plans with armed forces. 

As have all the banks, and major companies! Some since just weeks after the Referendum!  But they still pretend they are not ready....to put pressure on May to stay in the EU, by hook or by crook!

[oowee]

10 hours ago, pinfireman said:

As 99% of ALL our goods are in alignment with those of the EU, after 40 years, then it should NOT be a problem!

As have all the banks, and major companies! Some since just weeks after the Referendum!  But they still pretend they are not ready....to put pressure on May to stay in the EU, by hook or by crook!

So why say in your earlier post that the UK govt has not been buying land to any significant degree? 

'what the UK has not to any significant degree – is buying up land'

The truth of the matter is we just do not know what will happen. All sides need to take the opportunity to make preparations and then hope for the best. It's not some great sinister plot just big organisations trying to work out what to do and at the same time try to manage the enormous cost, disruption and risk.

[Retsdon]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/business/insurers-brexit-alert-over-food-suppliers-d2pps8mjb

Yet more Project Fear,  and this time it's insurance companies whining about a no deal scenario being a 'material threat'. They're even using it as an excuse for their refusal to extend credit default cover to some of their clients. The Remoaners are really starting to get hysterical!

 

[oowee]

6 hours ago, Retsdon said:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/business/insurers-brexit-alert-over-food-suppliers-d2pps8mjb

Yet more Project Fear,  and this time it's insurance companies whining about a no deal scenario being a 'material threat'. They're even using it as an excuse for their refusal to extend credit default cover to some of their clients. The Remoaners are really starting to get hysterical!

 

Wheres the hysterics? If the article is correct cover is being removed. Not great if its your cover. Not a remoaner or quiter in sight. 

[silver pigeon69]

9 minutes ago, oowee said:

Wheres the hysterics? If the article is correct cover is being removed. Not great if its your cover. Not a remoaner or quiter in sight. 

quiter???  Is that someone who wants change and is willing to fight for it?

[oowee]

16 minutes ago, silver pigeon69 said:

quiter???  Is that someone who wants change and is willing to fight for it?

We all want change. Luckily we all knew what we were voting for. 

[poontang]

32 minutes ago, oowee said:

We all want change. Luckily we all knew what we were voting for. 

We do indeed, and as Cameron's 'negotiations' before the vote achieved diddly squat the writing was on the wall. You simply CANNOT change the direction of the EU as it stands. They are flying full steam ahead into a federal union where all power will be held in Brussels. It has ever been thus, the only difference is that the cat is now out of the bag.

I mention that the EU cannot be changed as it stands, but after the May '19 EU elections it could well change in a direction nobody until recently had anticipated. The rise across Europe of populist parties could change the whole direction of the EU as we know it today. The centre/liberal ground is crumbling all across the continent leaving the way open to parties on the extremes of the political spectrum. It is quite conceivable, probably likely, that these parties, many of whom are virulently eurosceptic will form a significant voting bloc in the EU parliament. What then for the EU?

One only has to look at the results of the German federal elections in 1928 and 1932 to see how an otherwise decent and structured society can change dramatically in just a few years. More recently a quick glance across the pond will confirm that a single election can change the whole direction of a country immeasurably. The EU's election is coming in just 5 months time and could easily change its direction for a generation.

The question is, would you support a union which had swung to the hard left or hard right?  Because as sure as night follows day you wouldn't be able to change its direction.

So yes, I knew exactly what I was voting for when I voted to leave. Did you when you voted to remain?

 

[oowee]

Camoron did come back with commitments about opting out of the ever closer union. 

No organisation stays the same over time. There is evidence of change at all levels within the EU. I voted to remain in a changing union that will have to adapt and modernise to change. 

With globalism, the death of distance, and fundamental chalenges to the way that we utilise scarce resources it must make sense to form large global pacts. Pacts powerful enough to force and encourage global change. The question then arrises if not the EU then what? 

 

[poontang]

1 hour ago, oowee said:

Camoron did come back with commitments about opting out of the ever closer union. 

No organisation stays the same over time. There is evidence of change at all levels within the EU. I voted to remain in a changing union that will have to adapt and modernise to change. 

With globalism, the death of distance, and fundamental chalenges to the way that we utilise scarce resources it must make sense to form large global pacts. Pacts powerful enough to force and encourage global change. The question then arrises if not the EU then what? 

 

Ah the old opt out from ever closer union.

If the EU were to ever achieve its one and only purpose where do you reckon that would leave the UK? Let's just say for arguments sake all 27 states were to agree absolutely to a single currency, a single tax and spend policy, no borders, a single legislature, foreign policy and military etc. all run from Brussels, where would that leave the UK as a country on the 'outside'? I would suspect we'd be even more marginalised than we are now, and quite possibly given the ultimatum to either join under the EU 27 terms or leave altogether. 

Globalism is a bit of a myth really isn't it? I mean the EU, like all trading blocs are actually protectionist in their trade policy and regulation. Nothing wrong with that, it makes sense to protect your own markets but let's not pretend that globalism actually does what it infers. The EU are nowhere near powerful enough to force or encourage global change as it stands, Germany, France and the UK may have some sway but the EU? No. As a group of 28 countries so divided between themselves they will never form a coherent voice on the world stage, hence their overarching need for 'ever closer union'.

Let's be honest, the real big decisions on things like Syria, Iran, climate change, poverty, terrorism and migration etc are made at the UN and the real power there is held by the 5 security council members who hold a veto. The EU isn't one of them! 

What would replace the EU? Well that's the 64m euro question. How about an open free trade area? We could call it a common market. How about allowing sovereign nations make their own decisions on their currency, security and judiciary without fear of sanctions? We could call that democracy. How about donning a 'gilet jaunes' and drop kicking all the simpering little politicians past and present who have led us into the sorry mess that is the EU and who continue to support it. We could call that sweet ******* justice!! 😉

[Rewulf]

Bang on Poontang 

[pinfireman]

16 hours ago, oowee said:

So why say in your earlier post that the UK govt has not been buying land to any significant degree? 

'what the UK has not to any significant degree – is buying up land'

The truth of the matter is we just do not know what will happen. All sides need to take the opportunity to make preparations and then hope for the best. It's not some great sinister plot just big organisations trying to work out what to do and at the same time try to manage the enormous cost, disruption and risk.

Compared to the Dutch, Belgian, French and Irish governments, the UK government had NOT been buying land in SIGNIFCANT amounts....

9 hours ago, oowee said:

We all want change. Luckily we all knew what we were voting for. 

Well, we Leavers did...............many of the Remoaners were swayed by Project Fear, a total load of codswallop that Joseph Goebells would have been proud of!

8 hours ago, poontang said:

We do indeed, and as Cameron's 'negotiations' before the vote achieved diddly squat the writing was on the wall. You simply CANNOT change the direction of the EU as it stands. They are flying full steam ahead into a federal union where all power will be held in Brussels. It has ever been thus, the only difference is that the cat is now out of the bag.

I mention that the EU cannot be changed as it stands, but after the May '19 EU elections it could well change in a direction nobody until recently had anticipated. The rise across Europe of populist parties could change the whole direction of the EU as we know it today. The centre/liberal ground is crumbling all across the continent leaving the way open to parties on the extremes of the political spectrum. It is quite conceivable, probably likely, that these parties, many of whom are virulently eurosceptic will form a significant voting bloc in the EU parliament. What then for the EU?

One only has to look at the results of the German federal elections in 1928 and 1932 to see how an otherwise decent and structured society can change dramatically in just a few years. More recently a quick glance across the pond will confirm that a single election can change the whole direction of a country immeasurably. The EU's election is coming in just 5 months time and could easily change its direction for a generation.

The question is, would you support a union which had swung to the hard left or hard right?  Because as sure as night follows day you wouldn't be able to change its direction.

So yes, I knew exactly what I was voting for when I voted to leave. Did you when you voted to remain?

 

CORRECT!

[pinfireman]

7 hours ago, oowee said:

Camoron did come back with commitments about opting out of the ever closer union. 

No organisation stays the same over time. There is evidence of change at all levels within the EU. I voted to remain in a changing union that will have to adapt and modernise to change. 

With globalism, the death of distance, and fundamental chalenges to the way that we utilise scarce resources it must make sense to form large global pacts. Pacts powerful enough to force and encourage global change. The question then arrises if not the EU then what? 

 

He came back with NOTHING! "Commitments"....total rubbish! The EU will NEVER give an inch...to do so would signal it,s falliblity!

5 hours ago, poontang said:

Ah the old opt out from ever closer union.

If the EU were to ever achieve its one and only purpose where do you reckon that would leave the UK? Let's just say for arguments sake all 27 states were to agree absolutely to a single currency, a single tax and spend policy, no borders, a single legislature, foreign policy and military etc. all run from Brussels, where would that leave the UK as a country on the 'outside'? I would suspect we'd be even more marginalised than we are now, and quite possibly given the ultimatum to either join under the EU 27 terms or leave altogether. 

Globalism is a bit of a myth really isn't it? I mean the EU, like all trading blocs are actually protectionist in their trade policy and regulation. Nothing wrong with that, it makes sense to protect your own markets but let's not pretend that globalism actually does what it infers. The EU are nowhere near powerful enough to force or encourage global change as it stands, Germany, France and the UK may have some sway but the EU? No. As a group of 28 countries so divided between themselves they will never form a coherent voice on the world stage, hence their overarching need for 'ever closer union'.

Let's be honest, the real big decisions on things like Syria, Iran, climate change, poverty, terrorism and migration etc are made at the UN and the real power there is held by the 5 security council members who hold a veto. The EU isn't one of them! 

What would replace the EU? Well that's the 64m euro question. How about an open free trade area? We could call it a common market. How about allowing sovereign nations make their own decisions on their currency, security and judiciary without fear of sanctions? We could call that democracy. How about donning a 'gilet jaunes' and drop kicking all the simpering little politicians past and present who have led us into the sorry mess that is the EU and who continue to support it. We could call that sweet ******* justice!! 😉

Excellent!

[12gauge82]

This is an interesting view, I have also long felt, far from brexit being divided between the old supposedly voting leave, Vs the young supposedly voting remain, I believe the split is more along the lines of the working masses voting leave Vs the elites, leftists and uni students remain.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1063085/brexit-news-remainers-brexiteers-working-class-Robert-Tombs-matthew-parris-theresa-may

[Rewulf]

28 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

This is an interesting view, I have also long felt, far from brexit being divided between the old supposedly voting leave, Vs the young supposedly voting remain, I believe the split is more along the lines of the working masses voting leave Vs the elites, leftists and uni students remain.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1063085/brexit-news-remainers-brexiteers-working-class-Robert-Tombs-matthew-parris-theresa-may

It's a good piece that , it rings very true in certain aspects.

Of course it will be completely rubbished by remainers for being in the Express, never mind the fact it shows the 'morally superior' in a poor light.

[poontang]

29 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

This is an interesting view, I have also long felt, far from brexit being divided between the old supposedly voting leave, Vs the young supposedly voting remain, I believe the split is more along the lines of the working masses voting leave Vs the elites, leftists and uni students remain.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1063085/brexit-news-remainers-brexiteers-working-class-Robert-Tombs-matthew-parris-theresa-may

Yes of course that's the case. Ever since Blair and Major took their respective parties away from their grass root support and the Tories and New Labour became indistinguishable from each other the right of the Conservative party and the left of the Labour party, the so called 'working class' have been politically homeless. I would suggest these two factions now have more in common than ever before, and Brexit was the perfect chance for them to come together and show their collective frustration and anger at being ignored for so long. We're seeing the same thing across Europe and it's no secret that the EU are filling their proverbial pants at the outcome of their elections in June. They have only themselves to blame.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Unfortunately the Gravy Train Crew will never accept that the experiment is failing and that the House of cards is about to fall down!

[12gauge82]

1 hour ago, poontang said:

Yes of course that's the case. Ever since Blair and Major took their respective parties away from their grass root support and the Tories and New Labour became indistinguishable from each other the right of the Conservative party and the left of the Labour party, the so called 'working class' have been politically homeless. I would suggest these two factions now have more in common than ever before, and Brexit was the perfect chance for them to come together and show their collective frustration and anger at being ignored for so long. We're seeing the same thing across Europe and it's no secret that the EU are filling their proverbial pants at the outcome of their elections in June. They have only themselves to blame.

Yes, otherwise known as "populism"

[poontang]

2 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

Yes, otherwise known as "populism"

Yeah, but populism is just a word bandied about by politicians and media alike... it doesn't actually mean anything. The whole political spectrum from far right to far left is littered with so called populists, the lines are so blurred as to what a 'populist' actually is now that the word holds no real meaning. If you take a word and use it so often, and in the wrong context, that word will eventually lose its true meaning. The same can be said of words like racist, xenophobe, misogynist, homophobe and islamophobe etc.

[oowee]

The EU is the largest economy in the world. Europe is the birth place of civilisation. If anywhere can drive global change on a consistent and long term basis it will be Europe. 

We need global solutions for the changes we are facing. These solutions will not come from bit players. 

[poontang]

4 hours ago, oowee said:

The EU is the largest economy in the world. Europe is the birth place of civilisation. If anywhere can drive global change on a consistent and long term basis it will be Europe. 

We need global solutions for the changes we are facing. These solutions will not come from bit players. 

The US is still by far the largest world economy, and after we leave the EU China will be the second largest, the EU will drop to third. What's more important to remember is that the EU figure is skewed by its top five countries economies. Germany, UK, France, Italy and Spain contribute £10.78tn to the EU's figures leaving the other 23 states contributing £4.57tn to the total EU figure of £15.35tn, so an average of just £198bn per state... that's just a fraction below the economy of Greece! It's clear that as an economic model the EU is doomed to failure due to the massive economic disparity between states. 

As the worlds 5th largest economy, the 2nd highest contributor to NATO, the head of the Commonwealth and a permanent member of the UN security council I wouldn't refer to the UK as a 'bit player'.

[12gauge82]

2 hours ago, poontang said:

The US is still by far the largest world economy, and after we leave the EU China will be the second largest, the EU will drop to third. What's more important to remember is that the EU figure is skewed by its top five countries economies. Germany, UK, France, Italy and Spain contribute £10.78tn to the EU's figures leaving the other 23 states contributing £4.57tn to the total EU figure of £15.35tn, so an average of just £198bn per state... that's just a fraction below the economy of Greece! It's clear that as an economic model the EU is doomed to failure due to the massive economic disparity between states. 

As the worlds 5th largest economy, the 2nd highest contributor to NATO, the head of the Commonwealth and a permanent member of the UN security council I wouldn't refer to the UK as a 'bit player'.

Also worth mentioning is the EU is the world's slowest growing economy for a major trading block and it is being out done by all the others, probably due to its protectionist trading policy's.

[oowee]

Econimic disparity. 🤣

Take a look at the States and China for disparity. 

Either way the future is big pacts and co-operation its not about tiny islands. The Uk will never be able to use trade weight to force global change alone. It is too small and lacks the political structure for decisive decision making. It can only be effective in a block. 

[pinfireman]

16 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

This is an interesting view, I have also long felt, far from brexit being divided between the old supposedly voting leave, Vs the young supposedly voting remain, I believe the split is more along the lines of the working masses voting leave Vs the elites, leftists and uni students remain.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1063085/brexit-news-remainers-brexiteers-working-class-Robert-Tombs-matthew-parris-theresa-may

That works for me!

10 hours ago, oowee said:

The EU is the largest economy in the world. Europe is the birth place of civilisation. If anywhere can drive global change on a consistent and long term basis it will be Europe. 

We need global solutions for the changes we are facing. These solutions will not come from bit players. 

You forgotten China? USA?  And the fast developing economies of India and Brazil?  Bit players?  By mid century, the EU will be in 4th or 5th place. Cheap labour will propel the new economies, and the EU, with all it,s restrictions and barriers, will  become a "bit player".