Brexit - merged threads

[pinfireman]

7 hours ago, mick miller said:

All those Lithuanian, Polish, Romanian doctors, lawyers, nurses and nuclear physicists put off from coming to the UK and contributing their skills to our economy. Such a loss.

Don,t forget the really skilled ones.....car wash operatives, pizza delivery specialists, and those who infest the Tube in London,  muttering unintellible things whilst carrying a baby, and holding their hands out.........how will we manage without them? It,s a crisis!

7 hours ago, Jaymo said:

But that’s not what you voted for! You voted to leave the EU, not a border Policy akin to the Australian/ US model- that’s something totally separate and is in the domain of the Home Secretary already!

I said "I think it should be controlled......"  I did not say I expecetd that to happen!  But it would be good if it was!

7 hours ago, Scully said:

Would you like to see the democratically arrived at referendum result overturned? 

Of course he would!

6 hours ago, Jaymo said:

That’s isn’t a valid response to the statement posed- was merely pointing out that your expecting things beyond the remit of the original referendum!

Quite ironic that in barring EU Citizens that it has been seen according to the ONS, that they have been replaced by migration from outside from nations who traditionally have larger, and extended families, so more of a drain than your current 2.2 child, Polish ( used this nation as it’s often the most quoted on here) family.

Romanian (4.1  ?) Polish have the smallest extended families.....Try the South East Europeans.....

[pinfireman]

6 hours ago, old man said:

Maybe because they estimated 2 million unemployed and a few million imports would ensure plenty of votes bolstering their power base?

 

I think there is a lot of truth in that!

[TIGHTCHOKE]

The EU will not accept or allow the extension of article 50 without it having purpose, they will not agree to Mrs May requesting an extension as it will do nothing to improve the already poor situation and it will take us in to the European Parliament elections, which will be absolutely pointless!

[pinfireman]

6 hours ago, Jaymo said:

No- I don’t and I think I’ve stated that before?

But also I have stated the the intricacies of the withdrawal are not as b&w, so in seeking a compromise it is bound to not suit all- it’s turned into a bit of a poo storm for sure

The "compromise" keeps us tied to the EU ! And, as such, how does it honour the democratically arrived result?

6 hours ago, Rewulf said:

 

You know very well you cant control EU immigration as a sovereign country, you have to let the EU do what it wants, and if it says 10 million Eastern Europeans can come to the UK and do part time cleaning work, or man car washes, theres absolutely nothing we can do about it.

 

When did this happen ?
No one has been barred, and no one is going to get barred, they can still come, they can still work, we havnt even left yet !
When we do , theres nothing to stop them still coming, they just wont qualify for the same benefits, unless theyve lived here (*and contributed) for a certain time.
Non EU migrants still face stringent tests, and will continue to do so.
You talk as if we have opened the flood gates to legal 3rd world migrants as well as the illegal ones.

Nothing has changed, if farmers need fruit pickers, or theres demand for an Albanian car wash on every street corner then they can still come.
Its not like we know half of them are here anyway, whats putting them off is the fact they have to register for right to remain status, some of them dont seem to like that...

Absolutely correct! No one has been barred.....yet!

[pinfireman]

6 hours ago, Jaymo said:

Barring is probably my poor choice ( give me a chance- has general anaesthetic today and bit loopy).

Ok, should have said that the current workers who have already decided to return due to uncertainty and animosity ( better 🙂 )

What animosity? Uncertainty?  More figures released today (and NOT shown by the BBC) show that there has been a huge number of EU residents living here applying for British citizenship...............Why? The government has already indicated that they will be treated in exactly the same way as British residents in the EU?  However, the story going the rounds is that certain parties have been encouraging them to do this, as, in another Referendum, they will have a vote!  Since 2016, approx half a million have applied!

5 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

I must admit that I haven't read all 188 pages of this thread.

I agree that housing is an issue but it seems to me that a lot of the issues that arise are due to government not acting on the mechanisms it available to them to limit migration.

I don't know if the limits on visas for skilled non EU candidates has been increased but in 2017 / 18 the company I work for was constrained by very few visas being available but since late 2016 we have seen a steady flow of skilled EU workers out the door that we have not been able to back-fill. Of course not all of the attrition has been due to Brexit but it has contributed particularly due to the uncertainty.

I too would prefer no deal over the government plan but that seems like the least most likely outcome at present.

Perhaps your firm should invest in training unemployed Brits?

5 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

But do you agree the government plan just puts us in no mans land. I'm hoping that's something we can agree on. My real concern is the prospect of leaving but not really leaving then we'd be at the mercy of EU without any say on the trajectory of it's demise. I think it's difficult to predict if we do more damage to the EU by staying in it or leaving it. Do you have a view on this?

Great, Farage is arranging a walk, that'll sort it.

This is a fair post fella!

Farage is doing something.....you clearly are not!

[pinfireman]

4 hours ago, oowee said:

No deal seems like the ideal bargaining chip but its like bargaining with a pistol it has no subtlety.  We should be negotiating from a point of shared goals but we can't do that as the Government has no shared goals. A poorly thought out referendum, without defined objectives and goals. Is it any wonder we are where we are. 

Once again, blame the Referendum, and, by inference, those who voted Leave!  How do you negotiate with someone who does NOT share our goals? The right to make our own trade deals, the right to make our own laws etc....

4 hours ago, Retsdon said:

What makes you say that? I'm genuinely curious. The other thing is that I've never understood what it is exactly that you want the EU to do? 

It would be nice if they just went away, with short, jerky pelvic motions?

1 hour ago, Mice! said:

Ok question for the remainers who think us leaving is such a bad idea, why do all these people walk across Europe, pay vast sums to be smuggled into Britain or buy some dingy and try to cross the channel, if Europe is working why not stay there? The weather is generally better but other than that??

Excellent post!

[mick miller]

All the Polish people I know of, that applied and became British citizens before the referendum, all voted leave. Make of that what you will. 

By the way, as a reminder, my father is German, is still a German citizen, my mother is half Polish, half French, but British by birth.

None of us are particularly in love with the EU, my father arrived before it was created, has worked here all the time without citizenship, no problems at all. The scare mongering is remarkable. 

The company my wife works for employs people from all four corners of the planet, they all work here without an issue, none have had to become British. If industry here requires your skills then you'll have no problems, before or after the parasitic organisation that is the EU. 

[Retsdon]

4 hours ago, pinfireman said:

It would be nice if they just went away, with short, jerky pelvic motions?

In other words what you would like is a time machine that could take you back 50 years. And there's the problem right there. Now that the wheels of the Brexit machine are finally coming in contact with the hard road of reality, the whole fantasy is coming to bits.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

58 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

In other words what you would like is a time machine that could take you back 50 years. And there's the problem right there. Now that the wheels of the Brexit machine are finally coming in contact with the hard road of reality, the whole fantasy is coming to bits.

Now if you can get Time Travel working, can we go back to 1957 for the Treaty of Rome, 1973 for the Common Market or anytime before 1993 and the creation of the European Union?

That way we could stop it becoming the huge White Elephant it turned in to and maybe it may have worked.

It is now a massive, unsteady, top heavy house of cards and is starting to shake as the rumbles echo around Europe!

[Raja Clavata]

8 hours ago, Mice! said:

Ok question for the remainers who think us leaving is such a bad idea, why do all these people walk across Europe, pay vast sums to be smuggled into Britain or buy some dingy and try to cross the channel, if Europe is working why not stay there? The weather is generally better but other than that??

This is all part of the lies that we are told, some of these people would have you believe that the UK is the only country in the world where illegal immigrants and refugees are an issue.

The people that attempt to get to the UK are a percentage of the total number who leave a certain country or district. All of this information around this is available in the public domain and published by UNHCR (who do not have it in for the UK).

Do you seriously think that the state of the EU is a factor in a refugee or economic migrant deciding where they try to settle? 

[Mice!]

3 hours ago, mick miller said:

All the Polish people I know of, that applied and became British citizens before the referendum, all voted leave. Make of that what you will. 

By the way, as a reminder, my father is German, is still a German citizen, my mother is half Polish, half French, but British by birth.

None of us are particularly in love with the EU, my father arrived before it was created, has worked here all the time without citizenship, no problems at all. The scare mongering is remarkable. 

The company my wife works for employs people from all four corners of the planet, they all work here without an issue, none have had to become British. If industry here requires your skills then you'll have no problems, before or after the parasitic organisation that is the EU. 

Very well said

[Raja Clavata]

7 hours ago, pinfireman said:

Perhaps your firm should invest in training unemployed Brits?

Farage is doing something.....you clearly are not!

My firm invest in training the unemployed - what with grants from the government, or the EU maybe!? Do you understand the realities of business?

I might well do something, like go along to the march and heckle Farage for the gross negligence he has shown in all this and, in the event of Mays deal passing, how he has let both sides of the Brexit divide down.

History will expose Farage for exactly what he is (and equally what he is not)!  

[Mice!]

6 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

This is all part of the lies that we are told, some of these people would have you believe that the UK is the only country in the world where illegal immigrants and refugees are an issue.

The people that attempt to get to the UK are a percentage of the total number who leave a certain country or district. All of this information around this is available in the public domain and published by UNHCR (who do not have it in for the UK).

Do you seriously think that the state of the EU is a factor in a refugee or economic migrant deciding where they try to settle? 

No no i know there are refugees all through Europe, what i am saying is if you have travelled through say Turkey into Europe proper so to speak you have to keep going for a long way crossing multiple countries in order to get to Britain.

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, Mice! said:

No no i know there are refugees all through Europe, what i am saying is if you have travelled through say Turkey into Europe proper so to speak you have to keep going for a long way crossing multiple countries in order to get to Britain.

Okay I get you. Yes it seems like the rest of Europe is increasingly taking the NIMBY attitude which is understandable, I'm sure the "corridors" through which these people travel are saturated.

We might be getting off topic here though as we are now in the topic of non-EU migration / refugees.

[Mice!]

1 minute ago, Raja Clavata said:

Okay I get you. Yes it seems like the rest of Europe is increasingly taking the NIMBY attitude which is understandable, I'm sure the "corridors" through which these people travel are saturated.

We might be getting off topic here though as we are now in the topic of non-EU migration / refugees.

sort of, but its a massive part of why many people voted leave, wanting to be in control of who can come in to our country, we don't need or want more people who will just drain the pot, but as Mick says above if you have something to offer to a company you won't have any problems.

Can't think what the program was that was on last year, showing migrants travelling through Europe, pretty much being ushered along, as you say nimbg, its all part of what helped Farage.

[Raja Clavata]

So, absorbing the events of yesterday and over-night and barring any miracles the process now appears to be:

1. parliament vote on the transition plan by 12th March - if passed we "leave" with a "deal" on 29th March, if not passed step 2 comes into force,

2. parliament vote on "no deal" - if passed we leave on 29th March, if not passed step 3 comes into force,

3. parliament vote on a short extension to article 50 - if passed the govt presumably try and renegotiate with the EU, if not passed then who knows what comes next..

Do we all have a common understanding here, if not please correct me and if so, how do we see this going?

This was never going to end well for a high percentage of the UK population, increasingly looks to me like we are all going to get shafted...

Edited March 1, 2019 by Raja Clavata
too many if not's...

[JohnfromUK]

The issue with immigration in fact (in my view) is largely of our own making.  In parts of the world it is widely 'known' that if you come to Britain you will be welcomed and 'issued' with a house provided with a weekly income (which seems huge by their local standards), have free health care, pension, education for your children.  Much of this is true under our benefits system.

The European issue is that a large proportion of non EU immigrants enter the UK via Europe.  Just look at all of them queuing up around Calais)  Under EU rules they are supposed to be offered asylum in the first EU country they enter.  Once they have that they are (I think) free to roam the EU - and so end up here.

One big problem is even when we 'close the door' - the message that Britain is the place to go and get 'free living' will take a long time to be corrected.

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, Mice! said:

sort of, but its a massive part of why many people voted leave, wanting to be in control of who can come in to our country, we don't need or want more people who will just drain the pot, but as Mick says above if you have something to offer to a company you won't have any problems.

Can't think what the program was that was on last year, showing migrants travelling through Europe, pretty much being ushered along, as you say nimbg, its all part of what helped Farage.

You're absolutely right but of course the anti-EU lobby spin the reality in their favour and, whilst as far as I'm aware whilst we can't stop free flow of EU people, the government had instruments to make it less attractive.

One obvious point though is that being in or out of the EU is most likely irrelevant in reducing the issue of non-EU residents trying to get to our shore, except that France are even less likely to try to stop the migrants leaving their shores in the first place. 

One very worrying aspect is the number of EU residents that have rushed to register with UK GPs prior to March 29, I was in my quacks the week before last with the first appointment of the day to see my GP. Two couples went in before me and it was clear what they were there for - when I was called in to see the GP, instead of the usual handshake and warm welcome he just said to me he doesn't know how much more of this "we" can take - 7 more people on his books, all of which are recent arrivals from Eastern Europe. Irrespective of where we end up with Brexit that's seven more people on the NHS books from one GP surgery in a 15 minute Monday morning spell.

[Raja Clavata]

2 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

The issue with immigration in fact (in my view) is largely of our own making.  In parts of the world it is widely 'known' that if you come to Britain you will be welcomed and 'issued' with a house provided with a weekly income (which seems huge by their local standards), have free health care, pension, education for your children.  Much of this is true under our benefits system.

The European issue is that a large proportion of non EU immigrants enter the UK via Europe.  Just look at all of them queuing up around Calais)  Under EU rules they are supposed to be offered asylum in the first EU country they enter.  Once they have that they are (I think) free to roam the EU - and so end up here.

One big problem is even when we 'close the door' - the message that Britain is the place to go and get 'free living' will take a long time to be corrected.

There is also a view on this around the "debt of our colonial past" but we probably shouldn't get into that here.

Can't help but think language is another key factor here though, I haven't checked the statistics but English must be pretty high up there on the list of top global second languages...

[JohnfromUK]

3 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Can't help but think language is another key factor here though

I agree that is likely, through French is also very widely spoken (e.g. much of former French Africa like Algeria)

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, JohnfromUK said:

I agree that is likely, through French is also very widely spoken (e.g. much of former French Africa like Algeria)

Absolutely. 

[Retsdon]

On the topic of immigration, I've never understood why European countries in general should feel that it's incumbent on them to offer permanent residence or citizenship to migrant workers. I've worked in quite a few different countries around the world and I've never felt in the least bit hard done by that visas to stay in these countries have been temporary and dependent upon doing a specified job with a specified employer. When the job ends, so does my right of residence. Fair enough if everyone knows the deal, and it saves a lot of social problems.

I am however quite bitter that I was suddenly told out of a blue sky that in order to live in my own country with my wife and the mother of our native English speaking children that I had to put up a bond of £63,000 cash. When she introduced that law, in one fell swoop Mrs May  rendered myself and several of my colleagues effectively stateless. Not to mention that my British kids are being forced to grow up under military dictatorships. But that's just how it goes I suppose..

 

[Mice!]

9 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

On the topic of immigration, I've never understood why European countries in general should feel that it's incumbent on them to offer permanent residence or citizenship to migrant workers. I've worked in quite a few different countries around the world and I've never felt in the least bit hard done by that visas to stay in these countries have been temporary and dependent upon doing a specified job with a specified employer. When the job ends, so does my right of residence. Fair enough if everyone knows the deal, and it saves a lot of social problems.

I am however quite bitter that I was suddenly told out of a blue sky that in order to live in my own country with my wife and the mother of our native English speaking children that I had to put up a bond of £63,000 cash. When she introduced that law, in one fell swoop Mrs May  rendered myself and several of my colleagues effectively stateless. Not to mention that my British kids are being forced to grow up under military dictatorships. But that's just how it goes I suppose..

 

going on the first section of your post, your a skilled person doing a job simple, your not travelling around looking for benefits.

The second part? I am guessing this was done to stop people marrying in order to gain entry but I'm sure its more complicated than that?? 

[Retsdon]

Just now, Mice! said:

The second part? I am guessing this was done to stop people marrying in order to gain entry ....

Pretty much. When the legislation was first introduced I contacted an old pal and flatmate from my university days who had gone on to become junior member of Cameron's government. He said there was nothing that could be done, and that myself and my colleagues were, in his words, 'collateral damage' of the government's attempt to curb people from the Indian subcontinent using British citizenship in dowry negotiations. When I pointed out that I wasn't from the Indian subcontinent, and that my family now had nowhere where we could, as a whole family, call home, he said he understood, but that to make exceptions for people like us would be deemed racist. So there we are.

What I thought was very unfair though was that the legislation was applied retrospectively. So for example, one colleague who was three years short of retirement and who owned his own house in Scotland had been married for 20 years. He'd built a bit of a nest egg and was planning to move home where he had family and where his eldest was at university. But all of a sudden he was forced to find a spare £63,000 perpetually in cash. He couldn't work out how to do it in the time he had left do he ended up having to sell his house and retire to the dysfunctional African dictatorship that his wife had left 20 years previously. He also had to take his British teenage son with them which was a sad business.

[oowee]

1 hour ago, JohnfromUK said:

The issue with immigration in fact (in my view) is largely of our own making.  In parts of the world it is widely 'known' that if you come to Britain you will be welcomed and 'issued' with a house provided with a weekly income (which seems huge by their local standards), have free health care, pension, education for your children.  Much of this is true under our benefits system.

The European issue is that a large proportion of non EU immigrants enter the UK via Europe.  Just look at all of them queuing up around Calais)  Under EU rules they are supposed to be offered asylum in the first EU country they enter.  Once they have that they are (I think) free to roam the EU - and so end up here.

One big problem is even when we 'close the door' - the message that Britain is the place to go and get 'free living' will take a long time to be corrected.

Exactly this ^^^^^  Sod all to do with the EU. Also jealousy when Brits see migrants hard at work taking the jibs they do not want and making a life for themselves that they are too lazy to get out of bed for. All of which is totally avoidable but we just do not get a grip of these things and as always blame everyone else, EU included, rather than take responsibility. Another example of failing democracy resulting from first past the post.