Brexit - merged threads

[Rewulf]

17 minutes ago, oowee said:

Reform takes place where the members push for change.The EU has a road map, there will be no change from its ultimate destination, this is its primary failing, non adaptability.

 The EU is the sum of its members.Its the sum of its stronger members and net contributors, namely France and Germany, the UK , although a strong net contributor, never really engaged with 'the dream'

 If the members want change it will change.As above, the core members do not want change, no matter what their electorate want.

 The beauty of the accession states is the dilution of the power of the founding members.Seriously ? The founders are bankrolling the accession states, their is no dilution of power, because the power lies within the core, the weaker states will do , and vote as they are told.

 The strength of the EU is its resiliance and collective long term direction set by members. Correct ! Its resilience to change , and the direction set by the core, glad we agree on that

The weakness of any UK government is the short term nature of its policies. A global system requires long term strategy and following policies that the EU provides. You see that as a weakness, its called adaptability, and a willingness to (at least try) to satisfy the will of its population.
What is the point of electing a new government when you simply have to continue the policies of the former ?

You talk of 'global systems' ..who are they for ?
Why do we have to follow the long term strategy of the EU , a body we didnt elect, has failed to adapt to global trends, buries itself in petty laws and red tape, swallows up the GDP of a small country in admin, and when a member country attempts reform, or worse, tries to leave, rears up like a toothless lion in anger ?

If you are going to tie yourselves to the fortunes of a bloc such as the EU, surely it is worthwhile checking with the populace if that is the direction they want to travel, or do we not have that kind of democracy any more ?

The EU constantly modifies and amends its core aims and laws, as defined in its constitution.
We have NEVER  been consulted on any part of its formation and amendments, the key points are shrouded by legal jargon and buried under 10s of 1000s of words, no one can be bothered to hack through.
This has become the sovereign law of this country, without any consent from its population.

The one time we have had a say in where we go in relation to this, the result has been ignored.
Is this the country you want for your children ?
Where laws and policy is DICTATED from another country by UNELECTED troughers who disrespect us, and will quite possibly remove inalienable rights from us without consent ?
With no possibility of escaping that?

Are we too stupid to realise this , even though the EU is TELLING us , this is the direction it wants to move in?

[oowee]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

The EU constantly modifies and amends its core aims and laws, as defined in its constitution.
We have NEVER  been consulted on any part of its formation and amendments, the key points are shrouded by legal jargon and buried under 10s of 1000s of words, no one can be bothered to hack through.
This has become the sovereign law of this country, without any consent from its population.

The one time we have had a say in where we go in relation to this, the result has been ignored.
Is this the country you want for your children ?
Where laws and policy is DICTATED from another country by UNELECTED troughers who disrespect us, and will quite possibly remove inalienable rights from us without consent ?
With no possibility of escaping that?

Are we too stupid to realise this , even though the EU is TELLING us , this is the direction it wants to move in?

It all depends on wether you believe in a model of co operation with shared values, or one that competes for a share of dwindling resources. To my mind whilst the EU model has plenty of weaknesses it makes sense to increase cooperation in an increassingly global environment. 

[Rewulf]

20 minutes ago, oowee said:

It all depends on wether you believe in a model of co operation with shared values, or one that competes for a share of dwindling resources. To my mind whilst the EU model has plenty of weaknesses it makes sense to increase cooperation in an increassingly global environment. 

I absolutely do believe that co operation is an advantage, I just dont believe we need the EU to do it.

Think about it this way.
You join a club, could be a golf club, a gun club, a football club even.
You might enjoy some of the social aspects of these clubs, but specifically you join, and pay your dues, to practice golf, shooting , or watching/playing football with like minded persons for a mutually beneficial aim.
All good so far ?

But then, the club rules change, without warning, without consultation, other members can borrow your car whenever they want, come round your house uninvited, demand higher subs and tell you how to live YOUR life beyond the scope of the club.
So you decide to leave...
And find out youre not allowed to without paying 5 years worth of subs, and still having to obey some of the club rules anyway ?

The club WAS a good idea, until it changed itself into something it was never supposed to be, you know from talking to other members they arent happy either, but are either too invested, or too fearful of losing their 'friends'

A club that doesnt want you to leave would usually want to keep you happy enough to stay, IF it acts in a normal way , looking after the combined interests of its members, its core reason for being ?
A club that doesnt want you to leave, but is in no way ready to address the reasons you want to leave, and will also resists any of your attempts to escape, is a club best avoided, as its interests are clearly not for its members, bar the committee .

[Dave-G]

I can still see Tony Blairs face as he pontificated that he'd like to see broadband in every household: I'd imagine he rues the day that .Gov gave us the means to research and share so much information with so many people so freely that us plebs have seen how successive ploticians have deceived us so badly.

 

I reckon this is where the rise of so called Nationalism has been borne from.

 

Were it not for 'tinternet' the government and media would be selling us out again without us even knowing what scummy effluent many of them are. In days of old they would have been hung drawn and quartered for their actions.

Edited June 10, 2019 by Dave-G

[Vince Green]

1 hour ago, oowee said:

It all depends on wether you believe in a model of co operation with shared values, or one that competes for a share of dwindling resources. To my mind whilst the EU model has plenty of weaknesses it makes sense to increase cooperation in an increassingly global environment. 

That to me is all Pie in the Sky, We already know there is no real co-operation or shared values in the EU. "Pro-speak" that's all that is, next you will telling us "we can see the way forward" or that "together we can build a better future"   

[Rewulf]

26 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

"Pro-speak" that's all that is, next you will telling us "we can see the way forward" or that "together we can build a better future"  

Its not worked too well so far has it.
I would say its caused more division than cameraderie, but Im sure the snouts have an answer to that ='nationalism' and the 'far right'

[TIGHTCHOKE]

2 hours ago, oowee said:

It all depends on wether you believe in a model of co operation with shared values, or one that competes for a share of dwindling resources. To my mind whilst the EU model has plenty of weaknesses it makes sense to increase cooperation in an increassingly global environment. 

Okay, so it hasn't worked, will never work, but let's stick with it and HOPE for significant change, now who looks a little foolish?

Accept it is a broken ideal, not likeely to ever work and get out from the house of cards before it falls, thankfully we never joined the Euro System!

[pinfireman]

8 hours ago, Vince Green said:

Yes it now turns out that Labour's vote rigging Guru Tariq Mahmood who was convicted in 2008 of postal vote rigging was "employed" to do his stuff in the Peterborough byelection last week.

He was also employed in the election win for Fiona Onasanya. - well well! Now that's a big suprisei   

Typical Labour dirty tricks but what they do is not subtle or sophisticated, it should be easy to prevent it happening 

Yes, it should, but take a look at the political make-up of the Electoral Commission!

8 hours ago, oowee said:

You forgot Portugal and Ireland and Greece. I woul take a 'failing German' economy over ours any day of the week. 🤣

Well, take it then! No one stopping you! What about the others mentioned?

8 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Whilst it might sound like sour grapes, this is very interesting. https://www.politicalite.com/election-2019/exclusive-fraud-convicts-and-ethnic-exploitation-how-peterborough-was-really-won/

When you get millions spent on the NCA investigating imaginary Russian money going into Vote Leaves campaign, Labours dirty tricks department gets no attention at all ?

“They arranged for postal and ballot papers to be sent not to the voter but to addresses with which each defendant was connected.”

Detectives began an inquiry after voters complained, jurors were told.

At the time of his imprisonment, Tariq Mahmood was the Peterborough Labour Party’s Secretary.

Det Insp Ian Tandy said he was satisfied with the length of sentences.

“This hopefully will act as a deterrent and send out a message that election fraud will be investigated and prosecuted,” he said. 

But, as Politicalite exclusively revealed, this conviction did nothing to disuade Tariq and the others from continuing to take leading roles within the local Labour election team – supported and endorsed by the branch’s leader, Shaz Nawaz; a close friend of criminal fraudster Mahmood.

During the election of Fiona Onasanya, Tariq was once again given full reign during the Labour election campaign, and was even listed by the party as an official nominee, also giving him special access to the count room – much to the disgust of local residents and politicians.

Mahmood was also found to have made racist and extremist remarks on Facebook during the election campaign in which he alleged that Theresa May had been behind recent terrorist attacks.

and the Electoral Commission have done...................NOTHING!

8 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Thats the point, Liebour say hes not !

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7120267/Labours-election-victory-marred-claims-convicted-vote-rigger-centre-campaign.html

Jeremy Corbyn faced claims that an ex-Labour member jailed for a postal vote scam had provided vital help in fighting off Nigel Farage’s Brexit Party by just 683 votes.

But local Tories claimed Mahmood, pictured sporting a red rosette at the by-election count, was ‘front and centre’ of Labour’s bid to mobilise the Muslim vote.

He was also photographed with Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn last month, as well as being pictured with eventual by-election winner Lisa Forbes.

With the delightful Ms Onasanya on her win.

Labour branded the allegation ‘false and baseless’ yesterday, saying that he was ‘not involved in the running of Labour’s campaign in any way’. 

Party sources also claimed it was ‘factually incorrect’ to claim Labour had won because of the Muslim vote, pointing out that Peterborough was ‘82.5 per cent white’.

But whats 17.5 % among 'friends ?

Try complaining to the Electoral Commission! See what answer you get..............

[pinfireman]

7 hours ago, oowee said:

Reform takes place where the members push for change. The EU is the sum of its members. If the members want change it will change. The beauty of the accession states is the dilution of the power of the founding members. The strength of the EU is its resiliance and collective long term direction set by members. 

The weakness of any UK government is the short term nature of its policies. A global system requires long term strategy and following policies that the EU provides. 

So we want change, but the Franco-German lapdog states do not, so we do not get change?  No thank you!

7 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

 

and you ignore the furore over postal voting?

I never said American involvement in the NHS would be a bad thing. merely pointed out that whenever American involvement in anything here is mentioned, the Left wet their pants at the thought of it! It,s just being used as a scare tactic, an extension of Project Fear!

[pinfireman]

7 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

And with the challenges the German economy is currently facing this increases the likelihood of reform being driven on the basis of self preservation, particularly with uncertainty over the future of UK membership and France not doing particularly well either?

Naturally, any reforms will be in Germany,s favour?

[oowee]

32 minutes ago, pinfireman said:

Naturally, any reforms will be in Germany,s favour?

Why? Hopefully reform is in the interest of Europe from which we all benefit? 

[Rewulf]

45 minutes ago, oowee said:

Why? Hopefully reform is in the interest of Europe from which we all benefit? 

Are you really serious 😂 ?

The fact that economies are struggling will not drive reform, not the sort of reform you're thinking of anyway, sluggish growth or even recession will be directly blamed on slow integration of economies , and the lack of fiscal and tax union.

It will of course demand more EU,  not less, more 'encouragement' to adopt the euro, more encouragement to hand over your armed forces to central Brussels control, and more draconian law making,  for 'your own good' 

Sound familiar? 

[Vince Green]

6 hours ago, Dave-G said:

I can still see Tony Blairs face as he pontificated that he'd like to see broadband in every household: I'd imagine he rues the day that .Gov gave us the means to research and share so much information with so many people so freely that us plebs have seen how successive ploticians have deceived us so badly.

 

I reckon this is where the rise of so called Nationalism has been borne from.

 

Were it not for 'tinternet' the government and media would be selling us out again without us even knowing what scummy effluent many of them are. In days of old they would have been hung drawn and quartered for their actions.

You are exactly right! Because people like us, who are interested enough to do so, can search, research, follow up on links and compare sources, we are able to realise its all a crock of poo. What is more we are able to network those conclusions with others.

"Truth" and "transparency" are certainly not two words I would ever associate with Tony Blair but you are right he let the Genie out of the bottle. In some ways he appears to be still trying to get it back. He still thinks that classic Blair babble can sway the argument. It worked for him for many years but those days are long gone now.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

1 minute ago, Vince Green said:

You are exactly right! Because people like us, who are interested enough to do so, can search, research, follow up on links and compare sources, we are able to realise its all a crock of poo. What is more we are able to network those conclusions with others.

"Truth" and "transparency" are certainly not two words I would ever associate with Tony Blair but you are right he let the Genie out of the bottle. In some ways he appears to be still trying to get it back. He still thinks that classic Blair babble can sway the argument. It worked for him for many years but those days are long gone now.

I do hope so!

[Rewulf]

39 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

I do hope so!

You know when he first became PM, he looked and sounded sooo believable, a man of integrity, I remember him saying 'One hopes to do the right thing' 

Now look at his rat face, he looks and sounds like the dirty liar he actually has proved himself to be. 

He's never coming back to front line politics, he would poison any party he is associated with. 

Only in his deluded mind has he got anything worthwhile to say. 

Edited June 10, 2019 by Rewulf

[oowee]

11 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Are you really serious 😂 ?

The fact that economies are struggling will not drive reform, not the sort of reform you're thinking of anyway, sluggish growth or even recession will be directly blamed on slow integration of economies , and the lack of fiscal and tax union.

It will of course demand more EU,  not less, more 'encouragement' to adopt the euro, more encouragement to hand over your armed forces to central Brussels control, and more draconian law making,  for 'your own good' 

Sound familiar? 

Yes. 

The struggling economies within some parts of the EU is a measure of the shift of economic power to the East. Get used to it. If we get Brexit this will happen even quicker as we race to be more price competitive.

Reform will be by consensus. Run by the members for the members. Draconian laws for your own good? 🤣

What would they be? 

 

It sounds familiar on here yes. 

[Raja Clavata]

14 hours ago, pinfireman said:

and you ignore the furore over postal voting?

Ignore in what sense?

I never said American involvement in the NHS would be a bad thing. merely pointed out that whenever American involvement in anything here is mentioned, the Left wet their pants at the thought of it! It,s just being used as a scare tactic, an extension of Project Fear!

Never mind the bus, what project were the lies about Turkey joining the EU and us being forced to adopt the Euro banded around under?

Two wrongs don't make a right but to suggest one side is squeaky clean is a joke!

 

[Rewulf]

22 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Never mind the bus, what project were the lies about Turkey joining the EU and us being forced to adopt the Euro banded around under?

Turkey WAS going to join the EU , the negotiations were at an advanced stage, with visa free travel as a precursor imminent.

Cyprus was a sticking point, but what really put the kibosh on was Erdogans human rights violations, and the fact he had gone towards a more harder line Islamic society.
A few orders for Russian arms, and Turkeys ascension was effectively stopped.
This is all on public record, so its hardly 'lies'

1 hour ago, oowee said:

The struggling economies within some parts of the EU is a measure of the shift of economic power to the East. Get used to it. If we get Brexit this will happen even quicker as we race to be more price competitive.

Its only shifting there because the more wealthy countries are allowing it, hoping to bring the poorer countries into fiscal alignment.
Turkey is a good example, when it was looking like joining, many EU business's shipped over their to bolster their economy, to give them them alignment to make joining easier, Ford Transit factory in 2011, with EU grant, among many others.
So its not like the Eastern Europeans are doing this off their own back, they have a cheap labour force, if they didnt, they wouldnt get a look in.

 

1 hour ago, oowee said:

Reform will be by consensus. Run by the members for the members

If you believe that, you probably believe Junker never gets blind drunk in public.

 

1 hour ago, oowee said:

Draconian laws for your own good? 🤣

No draconian laws 'for your own good'
One of them will be kissing your firearms goodbye, so laugh as much as you like , its hilarious and its already happening.

[oowee]

17 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

 

If you believe that, you probably believe Junker never gets blind drunk in public.

 

No draconian laws 'for your own good'
One of them will be kissing your firearms goodbye, so laugh as much as you like , its hilarious and its already happening.

Lost me on that. 

What are these draconian laws? 

The pace of change is accelerating there are many struggling to keep up. 

[Rewulf]

1 minute ago, oowee said:

Lost me on that. 

Youve lost me why youre lost , its pretty clear...

2 minutes ago, oowee said:

What are these draconian laws? 

 

22 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

One of them will be kissing your firearms goodbye, so laugh as much as you like , its hilarious and its already happening.

Did you miss that bit  ?

[Newbie to this]

1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said:

Never mind the bus, what project were the lies about Turkey joining the EU

Taken from the UK embassy page in 2016

Taken from the page today, things have slightly changed but only due to Turkey's poor human rights standards. We are still aspiring to help them join.

Link https://www.gov.uk/world/turkey/news

So hardly fake news or project fear, the UK was and still is trying to help Turkey join the EU.

Edited June 11, 2019 by Newbie to this

[oowee]

I am not following your reasoning that organisational reform will happen from within, is in some way connected to a review of Junkers drinking habits? Has it been a long weekend? 

What are these draconian laws? 

 

Edited June 11, 2019 by oowee

[Rewulf]

19 minutes ago, oowee said:

I am not following your reasoning that organisational reform will not happen from within, is in some way connected to a review of Junkers drinking habits? Has it been a long weekend? 

I give up on that one with you, its a belief you have that is utterly without foundation, like Junkers sobriety , I think its you thats had the long weekend.

 

21 minutes ago, oowee said:

What are these draconian laws? 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Firearms_Directive#Directive_No._91/477/EC

Ooh look ! The EU parliament at work 

The Parliament passed the proposal by 491 to 178 margin after 4 minutes and 50 seconds with no public debate.^[50]

EU Parliament vote on the European Firearms Directive Amendment  – Trialogue version (14 March 2017)[52]	Number of votes
	Present	Yay	Nay	Abstained
Vote to reject the proposal	699	123	562	014
Vote to allow voting on amendments	Unknown	Unknown	Unknown	Unknown
Vote to adopt the proposal	697	491	178	028

 

Like I say , snip , snip , last month we lost MARS and lever release, and narrowly missed losing .50 BMG.
 

[oowee]

You missed this bit 

'Certain countries such as the United Kingdom are thus unaffected as they have maintained more stringent gun control laws than those effectively set as a minimum by the European Union, '

 

I guess it might be easier to take firearms to the EU when we are not a member. 

[Rewulf]

3 minutes ago, oowee said:

'Certain countries such as the United Kingdom are thus unaffected as they have maintained more stringent gun control laws than those effectively set as a minimum by the European Union, '

Except when they put forward the (failed ) proposal to ban all semi auto centre fires across the board, INCLUDING S/A sec 2 shotguns, and 'military' style .22 lrs.

Dont think they wont try that one again.

The fact is, it was in my opinion a draconian bill of laws, designed to take away a large section of firearms from legitimate licensed users, it doesnt matter that it (eventually ) didnt affect us.
It ran on the back of terrorist acts within the EU , but targeted people like you and me, are you OK with that ?