Brexit - merged threads

[Raja Clavata]

3 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

I would imagine the same way as it works when we have a GE , some of the people arent going to get what they  want.

In the referendum, we had a clear majority of 4 % or 1.6 million votes, governments have been installed with far less.

Lets put his in very simple terms, if remain had won by 4 % or the same margins in people, but the government/HOC was biased toward leave, how would you feel (as a remainer) that your (winning) vote wasnt being implemented, and we were in fact leaving anyway ?
Or, say you were a labour supporter, we have a GE , and labour won a clear majority in the house, but the sitting tory government blocked them taking office because of , I dont know, 'concerns' about whether or not they were fit to run the country, and 3 years on, the tories are still in power ?

From your position, it seems clear cut, that a WTO Brexit is a very bad idea, you have to ask yourself what you base that assumption on.
Its an unknown quantity, yet people/media/politicos will tell you they KNOW its going to be bad, based on WHAT ?
Fear of the unknown, projections, coercion, bias ?

Weve finally got people to come out of the idea that all Brexiters are mindless, racist, xenophobes.
Now its Brexit spells economic disaster, again.

Remain spells political disaster, and thats closely followed by economic disaster, this is an undeniable fact when you think about it.
So take a trip into the unknown, or the known badlands, this is the choice.

You mean like a GE where we the people vote politicians into parliament under a system of representative democracy.

I think leavers need to get their story straight, sometimes they say the referendum was just like a GE and other times like it wasn’t. Well, just like there can’t be three leave outcomes for Brexit it either is or isn’t, so which is it?

You already had your chance to vote for uncertainty three years ago, what we need now is certainty and leadership.

Remain is really only political oblivion for the Tories and frankly they deserve nothing less. I say that as an established Tory voter in previous GEs.

[Capt Christopher Jones]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

What , by giving people a choice ?
What else were they supposed to do, the people wanted it, they got it, they voted to leave.
Just because elements in the government dont like the result, we have to stay ?

Is that the kind of country you want to live in ?

This is guaranteed .

Possibly your new Prime Minister

[Raja Clavata]

8 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Oops ! missed this one.
We ARE back to the 'some people didnt know what they were voting for' line ..again 😂

And you’re feeding the circular arguments😂

[TIGHTCHOKE]

19 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

As far as I can tell it was a Leaver who posted the pie chart showing the leave vote split between three preferences.

The snaking that some Leavers are now undertaking really beggars belief. They bought into the lie and are now trying their best to ignore the reality of the situation we are all faced with.

i reckon even the most ardent of them will get with the gig soon enough.

Or quite possibly some of the Extreme Remainers might give up!

[TIGHTCHOKE]

10 minutes ago, Capt Christopher Jones said:

Possibly your new Prime Minister

Did you mean OUR?

[Rewulf]

19 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

And you’re feeding the circular arguments😂

I didnt bring it up , you did !

 

22 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

You mean like a GE where we the people vote politicians into parliament under a system of representative democracy.

If that had been the system in the referendum, the result would have been much more clearly defined to leave, the problem is, the MPs whos vote it was NOT , kidnapped the vote/result.

I think leavers need to get their story straight, sometimes they say the referendum was just like a GE and other times like it wasn’t. Well, just like there can’t be three leave outcomes for Brexit it either is or isn’t, so which is it?

I used it as an example of how disgruntled you would be if your winning vote was ignored, it CLEARLY wasnt the same kind of vote.

You already had your chance to vote for uncertainty three years ago, what we need now is certainty and leadership.

We ALL voted for what was on the card, what else was there to vote for ?

Remain is really only political oblivion for the Tories and frankly they deserve nothing less. I say that as an established Tory voter in previous GEs.

Youre dreaming on that one Raja, labour will take a massive hit too, make no mistake.

 

[Capt Christopher Jones]

27 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Did you mean OUR?

I wont be able to vote

[TIGHTCHOKE]

12 minutes ago, Capt Christopher Jones said:

I wont be able to vote

But whether you are allowed to vote or not, the new Prime Minister wil be YOUR or OUR Prime Minister.

[pinfireman]

12 hours ago, Capt Christopher Jones said:

I wont be able to vote

Why?

[Capt Christopher Jones]

I am not a member of the conservative party, or any other political party  for that matter

[Vince Green]

Europe is imploding so quickly now if we don't get out soon there won't be an EU left to leave!

[dead eye alan]

1 hour ago, Vince Green said:

Europe is imploding so quickly now if we don't get out soon there won't be an EU left to leave!

That's spot on get out now!

[Raja Clavata]

If it's going down the pain then we don't really need Brexit, surely.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

6 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

If it's going down the pain then we don't really need Brexit, surely.

Do you bother to think before you post?

 

If we wait until it collapses, then we will be fighting afgainst all the other disaffected ex members, let's get out of the white elephant NOW!

[Rewulf]

8 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

If it's going down the pain then we don't really need Brexit, surely.

Damage limitation, by being clear of the fallout, the eurozone will suffer worst as the currency devalues.

I say limitation, because it will hurt us anyway, but as the EU tries to borrow itself out of trouble, we can avoid some toxic debt.

It only requires some major players to drop out, us being one of them, and the whole budget goes to pot.

[Raja Clavata]

2 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Do you bother to think before you post?

Funny you should ask that of me. Anyway, I have argued previously on this thread that I believe the EU is going to fail and that we are better positioned than other members to limit the fall-out. But hey, jog on with the cheap shots...

If we wait until it collapses, then we will be fighting afgainst all the other disaffected ex members, let's get out of the white elephant NOW!

Predictable response.

 

4 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Damage limitation, by being clear of the fallout, the eurozone will suffer worst as the currency devalues.

I say limitation, because it will hurt us anyway, but as the EU tries to borrow itself out of trouble, we can avoid some toxic debt.

It only requires some major players to drop out, us being one of them, and the whole budget goes to pot.

I think we agree on all aspects of this except our position on whether we should be in or out of it.

[Rewulf]

3 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

I think we agree on all aspects of this except our position on whether we should be in or out of it.

But youve just said you believe the EU is going to fail ?
And you agree with my assessment .
But you dont want to leave it ...
Do you want to be in it when it does ? Im confused.

[Raja Clavata]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

But youve just said you believe the EU is going to fail ?

Not just said, I've been saying it all along, yes - I want the EU to reform or fail.

And you agree with my assessment .

Yes, I agree that we'll get a hit regardless of whether we are in or out of it. We are already in a much better position should it fail compared to other member states - not in the Euro, Schengen etc.

But you dont want to leave it ...

If it's going to fail then I believe we may as well be in it rather than be seen as one of the key factors in driving its failure.

In terms of the wider context of leaving, I'm not opposed to leaving but not under WTO or the WA.

Do you want to be in it when it does ? Im confused.

I don't think we need to fear apocalyptic consequences of being in it when it fails.

Apologies for the confusion but I think my position on this has been consistent.

Edited June 28, 2019 by Raja Clavata
confusion not conclusion - multi-tasking

[Rewulf]

3 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

If it's going to fail then I believe we may as well be in it rather than be seen as one of the key factors in driving its failure.

 

If a country leaving is the trigger for the bloc failing, then I cant see how the whole project isnt built on pillars of sand anyway ?

 

5 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

In terms of the wider context of leaving, I'm not opposed to leaving but not under WTO or the WA.

Theres another way of leaving ?

If the EU dont want us to leave (which they have stated) how else do we get away , besides one of the above ?
They have firmly stated its no deal, or Mays deal, no renegotiations , end of...and you still think they can reform ?

9 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

I don't think we need to fear apocalyptic consequences of being in it when it fails.

Apocalyptic ? No maybe not, but another 2009 style recession, probably worse, highly likely.

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, Rewulf said:

If a country leaving is the trigger for the bloc failing, then I cant see how the whole project isnt built on pillars of sand anyway ?

"one key factor" is not the same as "the trigger"

Theres another way of leaving ?

I'm sure you remember the posts where you asked me what it was I actually wanted. And as I have said on numerous occasions the whole thing was flawed from day one starting with the structure (lack of!) in the referendum.

Let me use a mountaineering analogy - I attempt to climb a mountain by a certain route but find I underestimated the difficulty of the climb - do I persevere on regardless of the risks or retreat to try an alternative route another day.

If the EU dont want us to leave (which they have stated) how else do we get away , besides one of the above ?

Cut your losses for now and come back and have another go when better equipped to suceed.
They have firmly stated its no deal, or Mays deal, no renegotiations , end of...and you still think they can reform ?

Negotiation tactics.

Apocalyptic ? No maybe not, but another 2009 style recession, probably worse, highly likely.

More damaging to the UK than no deal? 

 

[Rewulf]

19 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

I'm sure you remember the posts where you asked me what it was I actually wanted. And as I have said on numerous occasions the whole thing was flawed from day one starting with the structure (lack of!) in the referendum.

Let me use a mountaineering analogy - I attempt to climb a mountain by a certain route but find I underestimated the difficulty of the climb - do I persevere on regardless of the risks or retreat to try an alternative route another day.

I dont think anyone thought it would be easy, ESPECIALLY when your own governments heart wasnt in it to start with, AND it ruins the blocs plans so badly , they were never going to help facilitate leaving.
Your analogy doesnt work because, on the mountain its your decision alone whether you continue with the 'risky' climb.
Plus the fact that you decided to climb in the first place, shows that you would have researched the task, weighed up the route and the risks therein.
IF unforseen circumstances presented themselves (bad weather, route blocked/impassable) then yes, abort the mission.
This has NOT happened with Brexit, the obstacles are mostly illusory or invented, because we still have a remain parliament in effect.
The fact remains, it wasnt parliaments vote about whether we leave or not , it was ours.
They are blocking it 'for our own good' because 'they know better' ...

Do you seriously believe they are/do ?

29 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Cut your losses for now and come back and have another go when better equipped to suceed.

This will NEVER happen, and you know it !
They said 'once in a lifetime vote' this was to make sure that when the remain vote won, this door was never opened again.
And here we are.

 

31 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Negotiation tactics.

Agreed.

 

31 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

More damaging to the UK than no deal?

Who knows,? The same people telling you how damaging its going to be , are the same people who campaigned hard for remain, and still are.
Every trick imaginable , because they simply cant accept it.

[Raja Clavata]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

I dont think anyone thought it would be easy, ESPECIALLY when your own governments heart wasnt in it to start with, AND it ruins the blocs plans so badly , they were never going to help facilitate leaving.

I'd agree that anyone who thought about it would conclude it was easy, but it was sold to the public on that basis and some of the public are very plyable, especially on certain issues.

Your analogy doesnt work because, on the mountain its your decision alone whether you continue with the 'risky' climb.
Plus the fact that you decided to climb in the first place, shows that you would have researched the task, weighed up the route and the risks therein.
IF unforseen circumstances presented themselves (bad weather, route blocked/impassable) then yes, abort the mission.

But the point is you do at least have a plan in mind, with contingencies in place should you face difficulty, that didn't happen with Brexit.
This has NOT happened with Brexit, the obstacles are mostly illusory or invented, because we still have a remain parliament in effect.

We agree on the first bit, not the second. No deal is like stretching for a rock of unknown stability whilst disregarding the three points of contact rule.
The fact remains, it wasnt parliaments vote about whether we leave or not , it was ours.
They are blocking it 'for our own good' because 'they know better' ...

And / or because it wasn't thought out very well in the first place

Do you seriously believe they are/do ?

I actually do believe they are mainly trying to do what they believe is for the best, with exceptions.

This will NEVER happen, and you know it !
They said 'once in a lifetime vote' this was to make sure that when the remain vote won, this door was never opened again.
And here we are.

"They" also made lots of other shallow promises and downright lies, both sides, do we only believe them when it suits us to?

Who knows,? The same people telling you how damaging its going to be , are the same people who campaigned hard for remain, and still are.

But the flip side is that the hard leavers behave like it's the only thing that matters in this world.
Every trick imaginable , because they simply cant accept it.

So going back to the points from yesterday - how do we progress given the reality of where we are?

I can't see how no deal will ever get through Parliament and if it's circumvented then where does that leave our democracy?

We are up the proverbial creep in a leaky boat with no paddles!

[Vince Green]

4 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Damage limitation, by being clear of the fallout, the eurozone will suffer worst as the currency devalues.

I say limitation, because it will hurt us anyway, but as the EU tries to borrow itself out of trouble, we can avoid some toxic debt.

It only requires some major players to drop out, us being one of them, and the whole budget goes to pot.

The collapse will be in the banking arrangements that are struggling to keep concealed the true level of insolvency in many of the EU member states.. Many big players are busy moving money out of the Euro Zone in anticipation of a big drop before the end of this year. When it goes, nobody can predict how far the cracks will spread. Gold is at an all time high, that's always a sign 

[Rewulf]

36 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

I can't see how no deal will ever get through Parliament and if it's circumvented then where does that leave our democracy?

It doesnt have to get through, its the legal default, they are physically trying to change the law to make it not. This is wrong.

Its wrong because it would leave us in a position where we cant physically leave without agreeing to whatever the EU demands.
If you think thats OK then , well , I dont know what to say...

If you think democracy is best served by ignoring a majority vote, transferring the decision to an obviously remain biased parliament, and changing the law so we cant leave in any meaningful way, then again, Ive nothing further to say on it with you.

[Raja Clavata]

4 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

It doesnt have to get through, its the legal default, they are physically trying to change the law to make it not. This is wrong.

I agree it's not right but it again comes back to the whole thing being ill-conceived in the first place.

Its wrong because it would leave us in a position where we cant physically leave without agreeing to whatever the EU demands.

Also wrong because it negates our only tool for renegotiation.
If you think thats OK then , well , I dont know what to say...

If you think democracy is best served by ignoring a majority vote, transferring the decision to an obviously remain biased parliament, and changing the law so we cant leave in any meaningful way, then again, Ive nothing further to say on it with you.

I'm not saying all of those things, and I think you know that, but I think there needs to be more than 28% of the population behind leaving with no deal to stand any chance of Parliament allowing it to happen.