Brexit - merged threads

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Yes indeed, a new election on the horizon?

[Rewulf]

22 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

The Labour party regulars are having a feeding frenzy over this!

Nothing new , they would dance over the ashes of this country, shouting 'told you so'

[Spoon]

3 hours ago, Konnie said:

But if no Brexit....would that not mean we live in a dictatorship.

Your allowed to vote then we will do what we want...…..government

That feels like a tiny bit of an overly dramatic tone for a non-binding referendum which literally asked "stay or go" with no chance to say what going looked like.

Multiple resignations already, so the drama continues. Can but sit and watch at this point, but I expect the sceptics to take power with Boris and his crew maybe not rogering their own plans to take over (not that Boris in charge is a good thing) this time.

 

Edited November 15, 2018 by Spoon

[Clayduster]

Evil Ester has jumped ship. 😂

[TIGHTCHOKE]

A 4th resignation!

[Rewulf]

9 minutes ago, Spoon said:

That feels like a tiny bit of an overly dramatic tone for a non-binding referendum which literally asked "stay or go" with no chance to say what going looked like.

Thats sounds like a pretty poor excuse for something that was explained (at great expense ) campaigned for and promised by all involved, that the result 'WILL be carried out' 
After the fact ,the tory manifesto of 2017 further reiterated that Brexit meant Brexit.

So what shall we call it, a broken promise ? A few fibs ?

When a government takes power on lies, and ignores votes, what would you call it  ?

[TIGHTCHOKE]

2 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Thats sounds like a pretty poor excuse for something that was explained (at great expense ) campaigned for and promised by all involved, that the result 'WILL be carried out' 
After the fact ,the tory manifesto of 2017 further reiterated that Brexit meant Brexit.

So what shall we call it, a broken promise ? A few fibs ?

When a government takes power on lies, and ignores votes, what would you call it  ?

Time to go!

[pinfireman]

16 minutes ago, Spoon said:

That feels like a tiny bit of an overly dramatic tone for a non-binding referendum which literally asked "stay or go" with no chance to say what going looked like.

Multiple resignations already, so the drama continues. Can but sit and watch at this point, but I expect the sceptics to take power with Boris and his crew maybe not rogering their own plans to take over (not that Boris in charge is a good thing) this time.

 

The question in the Referendum was quite clear...and each side had lots of time to explain it, which they did! However, Remain chose to lie, and exaggerate big time! Which was their undoing!  And since then Remoaners have tried to cry foul, by claiming we did not know what we were voting for! Rubbish! We knew, and voted accordingly! Out means Out! All the way OUT!

[Rewulf]

1 minute ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Time to go!

Indeed.
5 or 6 more ministers to go in the next few days.

Her position is untenable.

[pinfireman]

4 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Thats sounds like a pretty poor excuse for something that was explained (at great expense ) campaigned for and promised by all involved, that the result 'WILL be carried out' 
After the fact ,the tory manifesto of 2017 further reiterated that Brexit meant Brexit.

So what shall we call it, a broken promise ? A few fibs ?

When a government takes power on lies, and ignores votes, what would you call it  ?

CORRECT!

Just now, Rewulf said:

Indeed.
5 or 6 more ministers to go in the next few days.

Her position is untenable.

At last they get off their backsides!

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Here she is thanking the resignees!

[12gauge82]

38 minutes ago, Spoon said:

That feels like a tiny bit of an overly dramatic tone for a non-binding referendum which literally asked "stay or go" with no chance to say what going looked like.

Multiple resignations already, so the drama continues. Can but sit and watch at this point, but I expect the sceptics to take power with Boris and his crew maybe not rogering their own plans to take over (not that Boris in charge is a good thing) this time.

 

Not at all, we may as well be living in North Korea, democracy is dead.

[Spoon]

58 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Thats sounds like a pretty poor excuse for something that was explained (at great expense ) campaigned for and promised by all involved, that the result 'WILL be carried out' 
After the fact ,the tory manifesto of 2017 further reiterated that Brexit meant Brexit.

So what shall we call it, a broken promise ? A few fibs ?

When a government takes power on lies, and ignores votes, what would you call it  ?

I recall the benefits of staying (the economy and other things not exploding) being explained and the benefits of leaving (the economy exploding in a good way, "takin back are country" etc.) being laid out but I don't recall voting on what the exit specifically would be like. Which is why Brexit means Brexit, a slogan which was made fun of, isn't a clear cut as it sounds. Nobody seemed to have a "plan" at the time, and we've spent months since ******* on all the suggested plans to the point where no plan seems like it might be the plan we go with. What I intended to get at here is that the context is important, the difference between what people expected vs. what they might get is now forgotten, and the pitchforks and torches out despite anything that came before. We backed a government that couldn't stop it ********* itself with internal warring on top of it all. And I'd just call that kind of a thing a Monday.

What would I call the government taking power on lies and the ignoring of votes? Probably more a Tuesday. 

55 minutes ago, pinfireman said:

The question in the Referendum was quite clear...and each side had lots of time to explain it, which they did! However, Remain chose to lie, and exaggerate big time! Which was their undoing!  And since then Remoaners have tried to cry foul, by claiming we did not know what we were voting for! Rubbish! We knew, and voted accordingly! Out means Out! All the way OUT!

Out means out feels like a massive oversimplification that doesn't do much more than allow people to scream hyperbole (which you seem to think only the "other side" has done) while the government melts down because nobody has any idea what they're doing.

34 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

Not at all, we may as well be living in North Korea, democracy is dead.

Oh **** it. WE'RE ALL DOOMED OUT MEANS OUT! BREXIT IS BREXIT! FETCH THE UNDERPANTS AND PENCILS!

Edited November 15, 2018 by Spoon

[Rewulf]

3 minutes ago, Spoon said:

 I recall the benefits of staying (the economy and other things not exploding) being explained and the benefits of leaving (the economy exploding in a good way, "takin back are country" etc.) being laid out but I don't recall voting on what the exit specifically would be like. Which is why Brexit means Brexit, a slogan which was made fun of, isn't a clear cut as it sounds. Nobody seemed to have a "plan" at the time, and we've spent months since ******* on all the suggested plans to the point where no plan seems like it might be the plan we go with. What I intended to get at here is that the context is important, the difference between what people expected vs. what they might get is now forgotten,

Perhaps the glossy pamphlet should have explained the intricacies of article 50 in more detail, gone into possible withdrawal agreement scenarios, and predicted possible EU responses.
It should also have explained how much our divorce bill was going to cost us, mentioned the problems with the NI border and introduced Gina Miller as a remain protaganist ?

Or you could stop being pedantic and say what you really mean, which probably involves chucking democracy out the window and stopping Brexit in its tracks 'Because we didnt know what we were voting for'

Same tired old lines.

[Spoon]

Just now, Rewulf said:

Perhaps the glossy pamphlet should have explained the intricacies of article 50 in more detail, gone into possible withdrawal agreement scenarios, and predicted possible EU responses.
It should also have explained how much our divorce bill was going to cost us, mentioned the problems with the NI border and introduced Gina Miller as a remain protaganist ?

Or you could stop being pedantic and say what you really mean, which probably involves chucking democracy out the window and stopping Brexit in its tracks 'Because we didnt know what we were voting for'

Same tired old lines.

I think you're being a touch disingenuous with how I worded my response, and pretty aggressive to boot. I agree that the complexity of the issue would have been, and still frankly is, hard to contextualise in a way that allows everyone who could vote on it have a clear understanding of what they'd get either way. I don't agree with the way a figure was plastered on a bus as rock solid truth, and neither do I agree that tales of doom and woe impacting jobs/the economy/the NHS were helpful to make a reasoned or considered view either. But has the process to date been poor and disappointing? Yes.

I'm not actually of the view that we "chuck democracy" and stop Brexit. I suppose a (democratic) vote on what we have on the table, which might be something like no Brexit, whatever deal May has been able to cobble together, and a no deal, would be a way to go but I fear that too is wrought with the same issues we had on the initial vote. I probably am more of the view, however, that we now are going to get whatever we get and therefore we get on with regardless if it was what I want.

What I definitely think is that its sad that there is continued hysterical yelling of things like "third world tin pot dictatorship stopping us moving in to the promised land" going on as a way of drowning out ANY other viewpoint, criticism, thought, suggestion, concern, suggestion, or opinion.

[JohnfromUK]

I think with hindsight, there never was an 'acceptable' deal to be had.  The EU cannot allow something we like.  To be fair to them, they have come out where they wanted to be - us still in paying, subject to their rules and they still have a veto on us leaving - and we no longer have any say (not that we ever really did have much) - and we have capitulated - I suspect because the civil servant negotiators always wanted to remain in.

I see the dilemma like this.  The present options are:

• Mrs May's flawed deal passes Parliament - and goes through ........ and in effect we remain in the EU until they say we can leave (which they never will).  Very unlikely she will get the votes.
• Mrs May's deal is rejected by Parliament - and we go for a 'no deal' clean break.  This would create short term problems, but might be OK in the long run.  But will Parliament allow it?  Doubtful.
• Nothing passes Parliament, so the 'status quo' remains and we stay in the EU.
• Mrs May resigns and a Tory leadership contest occurs.  Whoever wins has no time to do a new 'deal', so there would either be a 'stay in for now' or a no deal exit.  I guess that depends who wins.
• Mrs May (or more likely her replacement) calls a General Election - whoever wins would probably have to do a 'stay in for now' or a no deal exit.
  • If a Tory leaver wins - then we might in the longer term get a Canada ++ style deal
  • If Corbyn wins, then we will get a deal much like Mrs May's because actually - what she has got is not unlike what Starmer was always asking for (stay in single market and Customs Union).  We will also get a wrecked economy - as no international investment will come into the UK with Corbyn/MaDonnell/Abbott in charge.

Of the above - I think the best hope is Mrs May resigns, we have a Tory leadership election - and a new (Tory) Prime Minister.  The key question is who?

[Rewulf]

59 minutes ago, Spoon said:

What I definitely think is that its sad that there is continued hysterical yelling of things like "third world tin pot dictatorship stopping us moving in to the promised land" going on as a way of drowning out ANY other viewpoint, criticism, thought, suggestion, concern, suggestion, or opinion.

Whos said that ?

When you talk about drowning viewpoints out,  after we voted to leave , which was the majorities indication of its viewpoint , we had a tirade of 'You have robbed the young of their future'  'The fascists have won'  and ' Dont worry the people who voted to leave will be dead soon and we can get back in !'  amongst many other  pathetic lines.

 

1 hour ago, Spoon said:

I agree that the complexity of the issue would have been, and still frankly is, hard to contextualise in a way that allows everyone who could vote on it have a clear understanding of what they'd get either way.

Ah , so we get back to the , 'You didnt understand what it was all about' bit ?
Let me educate you.
In this country , people over the age of 18 get to vote.
That DOES NOT depend on their education level.
This is the system , that was DEMOCRATICALLY approved, as to be correct and fair.
Would you prefer we wind the clock back to when 'gentlemen' only could vote ?

 

1 hour ago, Spoon said:

I suppose a (democratic) vote on what we have on the table, which might be something like no Brexit, whatever deal May has been able to cobble together, and a no deal,

So , we need another democratic vote to decide if the first democratic vote suits the people who might not like the results of the first ?
Then for the people who dont like that result, we could have another....

Its a good job we dont do this every time theres a vote ?

Look, Mays deal is a pile of steaming BS , its not going anywhere, that is clear.
But if you and all the other remainers think that this is your big chance to kill the monster, you are very wrong.

1 hour ago, Spoon said:

I think you're being a touch disingenuous with how I worded my response, and pretty aggressive to boot.

Im sorry if I caused you to melt a bit 😋

1 hour ago, JohnfromUK said:

I think with hindsight, there never was an 'acceptable' deal to be had.  The EU cannot allow something we like.  To be fair to them, they have come out where they wanted to be - us still in paying, subject to their rules and they still have a veto on us leaving - and we no longer have any say (not that we ever really did have much) - and we have capitulated - I suspect because the civil servant negotiators always wanted to remain in.

Spot on .

1 hour ago, JohnfromUK said:

Nothing passes Parliament, so the 'status quo' remains and we stay in the EU.

Mogg touched on this last night.
The legal mechanism to extract ourselves has been initiated, we are leaving on the 29 th of March.
To reverse this , means putting it back through parliament to stay.
We will not automatically stay.

[Spoon]

 

4 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Whos said that ?

Well...

2 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

Not at all, we may as well be living in North Korea, democracy is dead.

I guess I'll just shrug and leave it there. You've got a tidy straw man set up now, and even had the fun of calling me a snowflake so there isn't much left but to be further trolled. Oh well. I'll continue to watch the news with interest.

 

 

[markm]

2 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

I think with hindsight, there never was an 'acceptable' deal to be had.  The EU cannot allow something we like.  To be fair to them, they have come out where they wanted to be - us still in paying, subject to their rules and they still have a veto on us leaving - and we no longer have any say (not that we ever really did have much) - and we have capitulated - I suspect because the civil servant negotiators always wanted to remain in.

I see the dilemma like this.  The present options are:

• Mrs May's flawed deal passes Parliament - and goes through ........ and in effect we remain in the EU until they say we can leave (which they never will).  Very unlikely she will get the votes.
• Mrs May's deal is rejected by Parliament - and we go for a 'no deal' clean break.  This would create short term problems, but might be OK in the long run.  But will Parliament allow it?  Doubtful.
• Nothing passes Parliament, so the 'status quo' remains and we stay in the EU.
• Mrs May resigns and a Tory leadership contest occurs.  Whoever wins has no time to do a new 'deal', so there would either be a 'stay in for now' or a no deal exit.  I guess that depends who wins.
• Mrs May (or more likely her replacement) calls a General Election - whoever wins would probably have to do a 'stay in for now' or a no deal exit.
  • If a Tory leaver wins - then we might in the longer term get a Canada ++ style deal
  • If Corbyn wins, then we will get a deal much like Mrs May's because actually - what she has got is not unlike what Starmer was always asking for (stay in single market and Customs Union).  We will also get a wrecked economy - as no international investment will come into the UK with Corbyn/MaDonnell/Abbott in charge.

Of the above - I think the best hope is Mrs May resigns, we have a Tory leadership election - and a new (Tory) Prime Minister.  The key question is who?

My worst nightmare is your Corbyn point. Unfortunately I see it coming......

[JohnfromUK]

2 minutes ago, markm said:

My worst nightmare is your Corbyn point. Unfortunately I see it coming......

It's mine as well.

[pinfireman]

2 hours ago, Spoon said:

I recall the benefits of staying (the economy and other things not exploding) being explained and the benefits of leaving (the economy exploding in a good way, "takin back are country" etc.) being laid out but I don't recall voting on what the exit specifically would be like. Which is why Brexit means Brexit, a slogan which was made fun of, isn't a clear cut as it sounds. Nobody seemed to have a "plan" at the time, and we've spent months since ******* on all the suggested plans to the point where no plan seems like it might be the plan we go with. What I intended to get at here is that the context is important, the difference between what people expected vs. what they might get is now forgotten, and the pitchforks and torches out despite anything that came before. We backed a government that couldn't stop it ********* itself with internal warring on top of it all. And I'd just call that kind of a thing a Monday.

What would I call the government taking power on lies and the ignoring of votes? Probably more a Tuesday. 

Out means out feels like a massive oversimplification that doesn't do much more than allow people to scream hyperbole (which you seem to think only the "other side" has done) while the government melts down because nobody has any idea what they're doing.

Oh **** it. WE'RE ALL DOOMED OUT MEANS OUT! BREXIT IS BREXIT! FETCH THE UNDERPANTS AND PENCILS!

So you are another anti-democrat?  Looks that way........When your football team loses, do you throw a tantrum, and demand a rematch?

1 hour ago, Spoon said:

 

Well...

I guess I'll just shrug and leave it there. You've got a tidy straw man set up now, and even had the fun of calling me a snowflake so there isn't much left but to be further trolled. Oh well. I'll continue to watch the news with interest.

 

 

St Albans? Says it all...........voted Remain.

[oowee]

4 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Nothing new , they would dance over the ashes of this country, shouting 'told you so'

Yep I think they would but they would know that the fire was started by the Tories. 

Good news is some decent money to be made on the market the last few days. 👍 All ready to try and guess the next uptick. 

 

[Bazooka Joe]

I'm no fan of Gina Miller but i cannot help that she has done a favour some what... If it was not for her court battle this would have being rushed through parliment... Am i right.? 

[12gauge82]

3 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Perhaps the glossy pamphlet should have explained the intricacies of article 50 in more detail, gone into possible withdrawal agreement scenarios, and predicted possible EU responses.
It should also have explained how much our divorce bill was going to cost us, mentioned the problems with the NI border and introduced Gina Miller as a remain protaganist ?

Or you could stop being pedantic and say what you really mean, which probably involves chucking democracy out the window and stopping Brexit in its tracks 'Because we didnt know what we were voting for'

Same tired old lines.

Spot on

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, Spoon said:

 

Well...

I guess I'll just shrug and leave it there. You've got a tidy straw man set up now, and even had the fun of calling me a snowflake so there isn't much left but to be further trolled. Oh well. I'll continue to watch the news with interest.

 

 

Ill let you call me a gammon if it makes you feel better ? 😂