BREXIT

[Retsdon]

From somewhere in cyberspace....

"The year is 2192. The British Prime Minister visits Brussels to ask for an extension of the Brexit deadline. No one remembers where this tradition originated, but every year it attracts many tourists from all over the world."

 

[oowee]

Thank you Mr Bercow. 

10 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

From somewhere in cyberspace....

"The year is 2192. The British Prime Minister visits Brussels to ask for an extension of the Brexit deadline. No one remembers where this tradition originated, but every year it attracts many tourists from all over the world."

 

[Rewulf]

14 minutes ago, oowee said:

Concerns based upon hearsay and sound bites whipped into hysteria by the popular press? Or concerns that have been properly debated.

I would guess ( hope even) that the most extreme brexiteer can understand the benefit to the UK of diligent and intensive scrutiny for such a deal even if they want to deny the public the opportunity to see such a review. Far better to deflect attention from their own short comings by pointing at the opposition in all its forms and shouting wolf. 

Nah !
You want a deal or remain ?

And leave out the extreme Brexiteer or Ill just call you an extreme remainer 😋

I would welcome due diligence from the opposition, if I thought they would look at it as a viable option,  they dont .
Their idea of Brexit , is to make it that soft, its not worth doing, so remain.

And to answer your last point, they dont NEED  to deflect attention away from them by pointing at the opposition, the opposition jump up screaming and dancing about jobs, environment  and workers rights every time someone mentions Brexit 😂
Even the most politically illiterate are given to asking why , when surely once we leave, those issues are entirely down to parliament to vote on as they choose ?

Diversionary politics reveals the real shortcomings of politicians.

As has just been amply demonstrated by Bercow.

[oowee]

1 minute ago, Rewulf said:

Nah !
You want a deal or remain ?

And leave out the extreme Brexiteer or Ill just call you an extreme remainer 😋

I would welcome due diligence from the opposition, if I thought they would look at it as a viable option,  they dont .
Their idea of Brexit , is to make it that soft, its not worth doing, so remain.

And to answer your last point, they dont NEED  to deflect attention away from them by pointing at the opposition, the opposition jump up screaming and dancing about jobs, environment  and workers rights every time someone mentions Brexit 😂
Even the most politically illiterate are given to asking why , when surely once we leave, those issues are entirely down to parliament to vote on as they choose ?

Diversionary politics reveals the real shortcomings of politicians.

As has just been amply demonstrated by Bercow.

It would appear that we agree that due diligence is the right and proper way to deal with this. In which case where is the opportunity to do this? Where are the assessment and impact assumptions?

Review should start from a point of neutrality, as much as these things are possible. If the house is incapable of this then there are other ways that this might be achieved. 

[Retsdon]

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7mwud1

Amélie de Montchalin, France's minister for European affairs, speaking this morning....

 

(translated)

"People tell us "Let's give them six months", but six months to do what? If they have new elections, if they have a referendum, that can be discussed, but six months to tell (...) a miracle may happen, that cannot work.
We in Europe cannot be constrained to immobility because of British political (expletive) games (long list of other topics the Minister wants the EU to address instead of Brexit)
Therefore if the British parliament answers no, we'll have to gather (to decide) but (anyway) we won't give them time without condition. The conditions have been clear for many months: there should be elections or a referendum, there needs to be a clarification (...)
For three years what we are missing is a clear Yes or No. A Yes or a No. A referendum took place, that was clear, but nothing since then has been clear!"

Maybe it's just me, but there's something about an angry good-looking woman...

 

[Newbie to this]

The remainer's newest hero

Edited October 21, 2019 by Newbie to this

[Scully]

2 hours ago, oowee said:

It continues to strike me how poorly formed the leave argument is. The calls for 'lets just get it done' are a demonstration of the small world inhabited by some. This is a momentous change and when I hear people prepared to carry on regardless of the implications, or indeed in ignorance of the implications, its easy to despair. I wonder how these champions of getting on with  it conduct there own business in such a cavalier and ill considered manner. 

Praise is due for Oliver Letwin who took a stand at the weekend to ask for diligent oversight of the new deal.  Common sense prevailed. If it is a good deal for the country lets look at it closely make appropriate changes and put it to a considered vote. Lets not follow a poorly though out and executed referendum with a hastily agreed and unscrutinised deal. 

 

 

What an arrogantly conceited post, and may I say typical of the attitude of many remainers regarding those whom voted to leave. Leavers and remainers alike are calling for our politicians to 'just get on with it and get it done', in my experience. As for carrying on regardless of the implications, you ( again arrogantly ) believe your predictions for doom and gloom are accurate and eveerybody who disagrees with you is wrong. No one knows what is going to happen, and certainly not you more than anyone else. 

Those of us who are willing to just get on with our lives no matter what the implications, will do so because ( no matter what the implications ) they believe whatever the outcome, it will be worth it to be free from this totally unaccountable empire building entity that is the EU. The UK is not going to drift off into the Atlantic, WWIII will not happen. People will simply continue to get on with their lives as they have always done, as politicians continually **** us over left right and centre as they have always done.  

As for a cavalier attitude toward my own business, it is just that, my business. Suffice to say it has provided me and my dependants with an adequate upbringing in the face of several recessions ( despite being in the sacred all hallowed cow that is the EU ) and paid off my mortgage and put two students through uni', ( and continues to do so ) and all through my own good diligence and hard work, despite what you claim is a cavalier attitude. 

Get over yourself. 

[Raja Clavata]

6 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7mwud1

Amélie de Montchalin, France's minister for European affairs, speaking this morning....

 

(translated)

"People tell us "Let's give them six months", but six months to do what? If they have new elections, if they have a referendum, that can be discussed, but six months to tell (...) a miracle may happen, that cannot work.
We in Europe cannot be constrained to immobility because of British political (expletive) games (long list of other topics the Minister wants the EU to address instead of Brexit)
Therefore if the British parliament answers no, we'll have to gather (to decide) but (anyway) we won't give them time without condition. The conditions have been clear for many months: there should be elections or a referendum, there needs to be a clarification (...)
For three years what we are missing is a clear Yes or No. A Yes or a No. A referendum took place, that was clear, but nothing since then has been clear!"

Maybe it's just me, but there's something about an angry good-looking woman...

 

Not an unreasonable position. So it sounds like a short extension to sort the legislation out or a longer one for a further referendum and / or GE.

BTW, it's not just you 😉 

[oowee]

7 minutes ago, Scully said:

What an arrogantly conceited post, and may I say typical of the attitude of many remainers regarding those whom voted to leave. Leavers and remainers alike are calling for our politicians to 'just get on with it and get it done', in my experience. As for carrying on regardless of the implications, you ( again arrogantly ) believe your predictions for doom and gloom are accurate and eveerybody who disagrees with you is wrong. No one knows what is going to happen, and certainly not you more than anyone else. 

Those of us who are willing to just get on with our lives no matter what the implications, will do so because ( no matter what the implications ) they believe whatever the outcome, it will be worth it to be free from this totally unaccountable empire building entity that is the EU. The UK is not going to drift off into the Atlantic, WWIII will not happen. People will simply continue to get on with their lives as they have always done, as politicians continually **** us over left right and centre as they have always done.  

As for a cavalier attitude toward my own business, it is just that, my business. Suffice to say it has provided me and my dependants with an adequate upbringing in the face of several recessions ( despite being in the sacred all hallowed cow that is the EU ) and paid off my mortgage and put two students through uni', ( and continues to do so ) and all through my own good diligence and hard work, despite what you claim is a cavalier attitude. 

Get over yourself. 

In which case if the down side is disputed, lets see an assessment of this agreement and demonstrate the case to be made. 

We will all have to get on with our lives no matter the implications good or bad, but surely understanding and mitigating any down side has to be for the benefit of UK plc. 

Your own good diligence and hard work should be a model for how the country goes forward with such a momentous decision such as brexit would you not agree? Rather than just shouting at the opposition and putting fingers in ears as is happening currently.

[Rewulf]

45 minutes ago, oowee said:

It would appear that we agree that due diligence is the right and proper way to deal with this. In which case where is the opportunity to do this? Where are the assessment and impact assumptions?

Then it would appear that you have arrived at that conclusion erroneously 🤣

Do we not have the good people of the civil service to practice due diligence , and prepare the assessments and impact assumptions ?
Have they not had 3 years to do this ?

Again, would you prefer to see a deal, or remain ?

As the haggle among the err .. honourable members of the house seems to promise to deliver neither.
Which is fine by me.

[Retsdon]

3 minutes ago, Scully said:

No one knows what is going to happen,

Of course, only God knows that. But we can make educated guesses based on available data, and likely as not they'll be right. Let's face it, that's how insurance companies make their money. And the argument that the economy hasn't crashed despite the warnings that it 'might possibly' do so following a No vote doesn't really hold good. The UK hasn't left yet so nothing other than sentiment has changed. In practice the UK is still in the EU.

But following a disorganized Brexit when British business finds itself looking over a barbed wire fence of EU NTBs (non-tarriff barriers) into the Single Market that used to be openly available to it, things will most certainly change drastically. It's impossible to get around the fact that the UK does 40+% of its trade with the EU. And the notion that alternatives to this seamless trade can be just conjoured out of thin air overnight is crazy. And don't think that the US is going to help much either. Even if there is an immediate trade deal with the US, the fact is that direct export to the States is anything but easy. Each state has its own standards, taxes, quotas, that have to be dealt with discreetly. So unless UK businesses are going to partner with US firms on the ground or find agents and distributors there to hack through this forest of paperwork (which will cut into profit margins) they'll have a big uphill struggle on their hands.

This is nothing to do with politics. It's just practical reality.

[Rewulf]

6 minutes ago, oowee said:

In which case if the down side is disputed, lets see an assessment of this agreement and demonstrate the case to be made. 

Good idea, if Corbyn wins the election, or if indyref 2 gives Scotland independence , lets do an assessment of the implications, demonstrate the case to be made, and duly cancel both votes.

How does that sound ?

No , didnt think so, good job neither of those scenarios are likely.

[oowee]

Just now, Rewulf said:

Then it would appear that you have arrived at that conclusion erroneously 🤣

Do we not have the good people of the civil service to practice due diligence , and prepare the assessments and impact assumptions ?
Have they not had 3 years to do this ?

Again, would you prefer to see a deal, or remain ?

As the haggle among the err .. honourable members of the house seems to promise to deliver neither.
Which is fine by me.

I think you will find Boris only recently returned from his foreign trip recently gripping his proposals for divergence. Even the wonderful ranks of the civil service, much depleted and often unfairly maligned, are unable to crystal ball gaze and in any case would need to be given some direction. In any case an independent approach might surely gain more traction across the house. 

It would be far easier to reach agreement if we knew what we were trying to achieve. 

[Rewulf]

2 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

Of course, only God knows that. But we can make educated guesses based on available data, and likely as not they'll be right. Let's face it, that's how insurance companies make their money. And the argument that the economy hasn't crashed despite the warnings that it 'might possibly' do so following a No vote doesn't really hold good. The UK hasn't left yet so nothing other than sentiment has changed. In practice the UK is still in the EU.

Likely as not ! ? 

They werent though were they ? 
And they didnt say the economy might crash , they said it would , your argument is without merit 😋
 

Oh , and the old ' we havent left yet' argument.

You might as well just say , 'Ok we were wrong that time, really badly wrong, but this time we are going to be sooooo right ' 

6 minutes ago, oowee said:

It would be far easier to reach agreement if we knew what we were trying to achieve. 

It would be far easier to just ask the public  WHAT they WANT  via a GE ?

But you seem to constantly forget we live in a country where the path of its destiny lies not with the wishes of government, but with the PEOPLE who elect them.

[oowee]

10 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

 

It would be far easier to just ask the public  WHAT they WANT  via a GE ?

But you seem to constantly forget we live in a country where the path of its destiny lies not with the wishes of government, but with the PEOPLE who elect them.

Surely that a GE is only likely to determine the mix of MP's. Determining what people want them to do is more nuanced than a GE is likely to achieve. If you doubt that look at the last one. 

[Retsdon]

5 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Oh , and the old ' we havent left yet' argument.

You might as well just say , 'Ok we were wrong that time, really badly wrong, but this time we are going to be sooooo right ' 

Dear, oh dear...sigh.  OK... let's try again. Ready? Now see if you can follow this...

Right now, for a UK firm doing business into the EU, or another EU firm doing business into the UK  - NOTHING HAS CHANGED. Britain is still in the EU, so British businesses are de facto EU businesses and they enjoy all the advantages and privileges that membership of the Single Market affords its members. Britain might have voted to leave, but trade law with the rest of the EU hasn't altered one iota.

Once Britain officially leaves there will be (if one of these withdrawal agreements gets agreed) a standstill period of what's basically purgatory while (hopefully ..haha) some kind of future trading relationship can be cobbled together. And after that  - or before if there's no deal - Britain is going to be outside the EU trade bloc looking in,  and every single UK business that does business into of from Europe will have to operate under a whole different set of laws and rules that currently don't apply.

And you're wrong to say that there's no data. The costs of doing business under these new rules can be quite easily itemized and quantified, and from these calculations others can be gamed using algorithmic programs that will give a range  of 'what if' scenarios depending on how hard or soft the trading arrangement eventually is. So the notion that 'nobody knows what will happen' is just plain wrong. 

If die-hard Brexiters would be prepared to come out and say, we don't care that the Uk car industry is going to disappear; we don't care that the economic consequences will be worse than the 2008 crash and last far longer ; we don't care that the government is going to lose 20 billion a year in tax shortfalls...etc, etc - WE STILL THINK IT'S WORTH IT! - then I'd have a lot more respect for their viewpoint even if I might disagree with it. But this business of trying to rubbish what is absolutely standard economic forecasting practice on the basis that the people conducting it are 'biased', or that 'it might never happen' is nonsense.

When Britain loses access to the Single Market there will be very serious economic consequences. That's just how it is.

[Scully]

1 hour ago, oowee said:

In which case if the down side is disputed, lets see an assessment of this agreement and demonstrate the case to be made. 

We will all have to get on with our lives no matter the implications good or bad, but surely understanding and mitigating any down side has to be for the benefit of UK plc. 

Your own good diligence and hard work should be a model for how the country goes forward with such a momentous decision such as brexit would you not agree? Rather than just shouting at the opposition and putting fingers in ears as is happening currently.

Seriously? No one ( on the remain side ) is interested in assessing anything because THEY HAVE NO INTENTION OF ALLOWING US TO LEAVE, whether we have a good deal, a bad deal or an indifferent deal!  
What is the point in spending more time and money trying to disseminate or analyse a deal they have no intention of ever giving consent to? It’s ridiculous! If those in power had any serious intent to leaving with a deal we would have had a deal by now. 
We’ve fannied about for long enough. Nothing the leave campaign comes up with in the way of a deal will ever be allowed to be sanctioned by the remain camp, so it’s time to pull the plug and go. 

[oowee]

3 minutes ago, Scully said:

Seriously? No one ( on the remain side ) is interested in assessing anything because THEY HAVE NO INTENTION OF ALLOWING US TO LEAVE, whether we have a good deal, a bad deal or an indifferent deal!  
What is the point in spending more time and money trying to disseminate or analyse a deal they have no intention of ever giving consent to? It’s ridiculous! If those in power had any serious intent to leaving with a deal we would have had a deal by now. 
We’ve fannied about for long enough. Nothing the leave campaign comes up with in the way of a deal will ever be allowed to be sanctioned by the remain camp, so it’s time to pull the plug and go. 

Which brings us full circle to the point I made in the first place. 

[Retsdon]

7 minutes ago, Scully said:

Nothing the leave campaign comes up with in the way of a deal

But they've never come up with anything! Actually, for a campaign it was a great strategy. If we don't have a plan nobody can pick holes in it and we'll never have to defend, only attack. But now they're in charge and the rubber's hit the road. - so now we need a plan and where's the plan? You want to leave without one? 

Edited October 21, 2019 by Retsdon

[Rewulf]

58 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

Dear, oh dear...sigh.  OK... let's try again. Ready? Now see if you can follow this

Dear oh dear.. Sigh, are we doing 'You, Brexiter=stupid, Me remainer =clever? 

Don't bother quoting all the bumpf, did they say, or did they not say, if we VOTE to leave, 3 million jobs could be lost, there would likely be an immediate recession, every family loses 5 k a year,, blah blah. 

They didn't say, WHEN we leave all these things will happen, if fact they don't say it at all now, because no one believes it any more,. 

Because its B S

[Retsdon]

2 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Don't bother quoting all the bumpf, did they say, or did they not say, if we VOTE to leave, 3 million jobs could be lost, there would likely be an immediate recession, every family loses 5 k a year,, blah blah. 

Quite possibly. It was a campaign conducted on both sides by professional campaign managers whose sole criteria of success was whether they won or not.Truth wasn't an issue for either side. The Brexit strategists chose to go with the strategy of no plan, unsubstantiated assurances of  and the sound bite of 350 million a month for the NHS and the Remainers chose to to with a strategy of over-egged alarmism. Neither side covered themselves in glory.

Forget the campaign - it's over. Right now though, Britain is looking at the prospect of being locked out of the Single Market without any kind of contingency plan in place at  all. And if that's not a major cause of concern then, I don't know, we're on different pages.

[Scully]

1 hour ago, Retsdon said:

But they've never come up with anything! Actually, for a campaign it was a great strategy. If we don't have a plan nobody can pick holes in it and we'll never have to defend, only attack. But now they're in charge and the rubber's hit the road. - so now we need a plan and where's the plan? You want to leave without one? 

The plan was to leave! What is so difficult to understand? We don’t NEED a deal to leave, why would we? Only those who want to remain are insistent on a deal, and now we have a deal they won’t accept it....because IT WAS NEVER ABOUT A DEAL! 
Yes, I want to leave without a deal. 

On a side note in reference to an earlier reply to a post of mine....if you want to bring god into the debate then we’ll have to resort to PM’s, where I’ll be more than happy to accommodate. 

1 hour ago, oowee said:

Which brings us full circle to the point I made in the first place. 

For the sake of clarification, was? 

Edited October 21, 2019 by Scully

[Retsdon]

1 minute ago, Scully said:

if you want to bring god into the debate

I wasn't really bringing God into the debate in a theological sense, I was just drawing on a standard Arabic saying.....

[KB1]

I believe that the consequences of ignoring democracy will do far more damage to the UK than a few business hurdles will…..

 

PS.  It's not 'Shouting Wolf'🙄 it's 'Crying Wolf'……… I ignored it the first time, but couldn't help myself when I saw it twice🥴

[Scully]

14 minutes ago, KB1 said:

I believe that the consequences of ignoring democracy will do far more damage to the UK than a few business hurdles will…..

 

 

As do I. The ramifications of overturning the result of the biggest democratic vote in living history will trundle on for many years. Some people seem to believe that those who voted to leave will just say ‘oh well’, and forget about it. They won’t.