Scotland Ref#2

[islandgun]

12 hours ago, grrclark said:

Yes Scotland could very much be self funding, but with very significant adjustment.  Just now around 52% of the Scottish workforce are either directly or indirectly funded by the state, if you then take out unemployed, pensioners, students etc and those that are non tax net contributive the actual wealth generation in Scotland, from personal taxation is somewhere between 12%-15% of the working population.  A very large percentage of that number are also fairly socially mobile so punitive taxation, relative to the rUK would be a bold gamble.

Agreed that PR is an improvement over FPTP, however the vision as you describe it offered by the SNP is in reality no more than the loose outline promises of the leave campaign during the Brexit debate.  It is really rather baseless, but of course as we know emotional argument is powerful.

I agree that Westminster is without vision, the clamour to occupy the centre ground has meant policy approaches of appeasement and a fear of causing upset.  As a result the parties have rendered themselves impotent in many ways.  You could perhaps argue that much of the narrative played out during the debate on Brexit is a consequence of that.  The desire to follow a charismatic leader to a destination unknown is better than bobbing back and forth with the tide.  I think, however, that Brexit is far more complex and likewise the debate in Scotland is too.

I am ideologically opposed to big government and excessive state control, so i support brexit for that and by the same token i should support Scottish independence.  If the underlying narrative was one of being entrepreneurial and beneficially disruptive in terms of things like education and a lessening of dependence on the state, I would vote for it, however the expectation set by the SNP is very different from that and based on entitlement and that is a social disaster in the making. 

And there you have it, 

[Bigbob]

Salmon and sturgeon only had one plan to finance independence from oil revenue there never was a plan B and when the oil revenue crashed and a lot of guys last there jobs it showed  the flaws in there plan 

I was talking to a senior lecturer at a petroleum engineering department as my mate had asked me to have a word about getting him a job on the rigs , And he said Bob ask your mate to stay in the forces at least a another year or two as the oil industry  is knackered just now and he went into great detail of how the SNP great plan was **** now 

[Westward]

12 hours ago, grrclark said:

 Just now around 52% of the Scottish workforce are either directly or indirectly funded by the state

Factor in too that "the state" is the UK not just Scotland and in the event of independence, the majority of those jobs would be relocated to England,  or more likely Wales. Placing so many public sector jobs in Scotland, Wales and NI has been part of the deeply misguided "Let's create employment in the satellite countries to keep them sweet" policies of successive governments.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

On 15/10/2019 at 21:45, billytheghillie said:

that's a very kind offer ditchy, have you got me a house sorted out? P.S. I will supply the drams.

Go to Norfolk and ask for yourself you lazy twerp!

[billytheghillie]

13 hours ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Go to Norfolk and ask for yourself you lazy twerp!

ha ha ha  pay back, guid yin.

[harkom]

On 15/10/2019 at 23:30, grrclark said:

There is so much mediocrity within the Scottish Government, across both civil service and elected representatives,

Not quite accurate. Mark Twain had a better quotation - " Politicians are like babies diapers : they should be changed frequently, and for the same reason".

[Vince Green]

On 16/10/2019 at 15:35, stumpy69 said:

This is spot on. I dont think I actually know anyone up here who wants independence. 

Before the last referendum my aunt had a man in a kilt turn up on her doorstep wearing a big YES badge. He told her that if they got independence there would be so much money in the pot from the oil they would be able to double her pension.

She believed him and voted yes, the thing is I think she still believes it and would vote yes again.

[ditchman]

2 hours ago, Vince Green said:

Before the last referendum my aunt had a man in a kilt turn up on her doorstep wearing a big YES badge. He told her that if they got independence there would be so much money in the pot from the oil they would be able to double her pension.

She believed him and voted yes, the thing is I think she still believes it and would vote yes again.

thats why corbyn et al are still very dangerous...........you can promise the world as long as you dont have to deliver

[Vince Green]

The big elephant in the room is the oil, the SNP would say its Scottish oil and belongs to Scotland but only a miniscule amount comes from within Scottish waters. Most of it is in International waters and belongs to the UK by the North Sea treaty.

[Nial]

5 hours ago, Vince Green said:

The big elephant in the room is the oil, the SNP would say its Scottish oil and belongs to Scotland but only a miniscule amount comes from within Scottish waters. Most of it is in International waters and belongs to the UK by the North Sea treaty.

Vince, that's not true, most of the UK oil would come under an independent Scotland's waters.

But, the oil price has crashed since 2014, it's expensive to get out and there's _very_ little revenue from it, and negative a couple of years ago due to decommissioning costs.....

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/oct/21/north-sea-tax-revenues-plummet-negative-first-time-history

 

Tell your Aunt that if Scotland goes independent we'd have a worse deficit than the Greeks did when they were forced to cut their pensions by 40%.

[ditchman]

1 hour ago, Nial said:

Vince, that's not true, most of the UK oil would come under an independent Scotland's waters.

But, the oil price has crashed since 2014, it's expensive to get out and there's _very_ little revenue from it, and negative a couple of years ago due to decommissioning costs.....

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/oct/21/north-sea-tax-revenues-plummet-negative-first-time-history

 

Tell your Aunt that if Scotland goes independent we'd have a worse deficit than the Greeks did when they were forced to cut their pensions by 40%.

if an economy relies on the oil price to balance its budget ...i read somewhere that it needs to be at $100/barrel.....................