North Wales Police FAC /SGC medical report

[Newbie to this]

12 minutes ago, DUNKS said:

The solution surely is for BASC to take the matter to the high court and get it settled/

You'd think so, wouldn't you. If these medical letters are to become part of the application, then the fee should be part of the application, fixed and reasonable! 

Edited January 29, 2020 by Newbie to this

[DUNKS]

14 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

You'd think so, wouldn't you. If these medical letters are to become part of the application, then the fee should be part of the application, fixed and reasonable! 

Wont happen because it smacks of common sense and reason and we don't seem to do that in then UK now!

[rbrowning2]

55 minutes ago, DUNKS said:

The solution surely is for BASC to take the matter to the high court and get it settled/

Not had such a good laugh in a long time BASC go for a Judicial Review, don’t be so silly they have constantly argued against such an idea despite cherry picking the comments they are making on here and another shooting forum, come on David when are you going to mention what’s happing in Scotland now? yearly GP check ups? What’s next?

 

Edited January 29, 2020 by rbrowning2

[mick miller]

1 minute ago, rbrowning2 said:

Not had such a good laugh in a long time BASC go for a Judicial Review, don’t be so silly they have constantly argued against such an idea despite cherry picking the comments they are making on here and another a shooting forum, come on David when are you going to mention what’s happing in Scotland now? yearly GP check ups? What’s next?

I am surprised you rail against these advances in securing public safety? 🤣

Edited January 29, 2020 by mick miller

[rbrowning2]

19 minutes ago, mick miller said:

I am surprised you rail against these advances in securing public safety?

Not against medical reports ,  just against a process that is not fit for purpose or equally applied across the country, what did David call it a post code lotto and one they seam quite happy to play.

 

Edited January 29, 2020 by rbrowning2

[panoma1]

The police are the agents (enforcers) of the state (government) and the government will always support the police.......so nobody can realistically win and make either of them do anything they don’t want to do! So what are BASC supposed to do if the authorities (state) don’t want to play?

[JJsDad]

36 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

So what are BASC supposed to do if the authorities (state) don’t want to play?

Well put. A fact totally ignored by some of the BASC-knockers who regularly feature on this forum.

[clangerman]

if basc were honest when asking people to join nobody would be knocking them they will do same as basc always do sit back and cash the cheques 

[JJsDad]

21 minutes ago, clangerman said:

they will do same as basc always do sit back and cash the cheques 

Copied from another thread just to illustrate what goes on behind the scenes that the knockers choose to ignore.

 

"From reading a lot of threads on this forum, BASC seem to get a lot of slating and derision. But I believe credit needs to given when due.

My young lad, was able to partake in a days introduction for wild-fowling yesterday organised by BASC and supported by the local wild-fowling clubs. Being a totally new experience for him (and me), the whole day was a huge learning curve which he thoroughly enjoyed. A small amount of time learning about legislation, bird recognition range finding and conservation. Followed by a late afternoon on the marshes close to Wells, where I was lucky enough to tag along.

The wild-fowlers giving up their time to mentor the youngsters on a one-to one basis on the marsh was fantastic, explaining how to safely navigate the marsh and creeks, settling in and waiting and listening to birds calls. A few of the youngsters were able to get a few shots off with one bringing down a mallard. But the whole afternoon was a huge lesson in patience, respect for the wildlife and environment. A few other opportunities nearly arose but being just of range or a protected species meant no "wild" shots were taken for the sake of getting as many birds as possible. It is amazing the knowledge these local wild-fowlers have.

Even though my boy didn't take any shots he had a truly memorable day, especially coming off the marsh and through creeks after dark!  with a huge desire to go again."

Edited January 29, 2020 by JJsDad

[clangerman]

if you don’t feed me a load of old cobblers to get hold of my money i won’t knock you that’s why i’m a sacs member no cobblers from them 

[Newbie to this]

16 minutes ago, JJsDad said:

Copied from another thread just to illustrate what goes on behind the scenes that the knockers choose to ignore.

 

"From reading a lot of threads on this forum, BASC seem to get a lot of slating and derision. But I believe credit needs to given when due.

My young lad, was able to partake in a days introduction for wild-fowling yesterday organised by BASC and supported by the local wild-fowling clubs. Being a totally new experience for him (and me), the whole day was a huge learning curve which he thoroughly enjoyed. A small amount of time learning about legislation, bird recognition range finding and conservation. Followed by a late afternoon on the marshes close to Wells, where I was lucky enough to tag along.

The wild-fowlers giving up their time to mentor the youngsters on a one-to one basis on the marsh was fantastic, explaining how to safely navigate the marsh and creeks, settling in and waiting and listening to birds calls. A few of the youngsters were able to get a few shots off with one bringing down a mallard. But the whole afternoon was a huge lesson in patience, respect for the wildlife and environment. A few other opportunities nearly arose but being just of range or a protected species meant no "wild" shots were taken for the sake of getting as many birds as possible. It is amazing the knowledge these local wild-fowlers have.

Even though my boy didn't take any shots he had a truly memorable day, especially coming off the marsh and through creeks after dark!  with a huge desire to go again."

Just out of coincidence, how much was the course?

Edit - just seen you copied from another thread.

Edited January 29, 2020 by Newbie to this

[rbrowning2]

1 hour ago, panoma1 said:

The police are the agents (enforcers) of the state (government) and the government will always support the police.......so nobody can realistically win and make either of them do anything they don’t want to do! So what are BASC supposed to do if the authorities (state) don’t want to play?

It’s amazing we have a legal system then, one that worked against Boris Johnson and wild justice appear not to share your view.
The whole point of a JR is to hold the enforcers or government to account.

just as the NFU are doing re badger culling and wild justice re release of game birds and I bet GLs will be next.

 

Edited January 29, 2020 by rbrowning2

[JJsDad]

18 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

Edit - just seen you copied from another thread.

If you PM Si.F who posted in General Shooting Matters under the heading `Thank you BASC` he could probably answer your question.

[panoma1]

1 hour ago, rbrowning2 said:

It’s amazing we have a legal system then, one that worked against Boris Johnson and wild justice appear not to share your view.
The whole point of a JR is to hold the enforcers or government to account.

just as the NFU are doing re badger culling and wild justice re release of game birds and I bet GLs will be next.

 

The difference is WJ and the police are either (take your pick)........... anti fieldsports/anti shooting/anti gun/anti private gun ownership/anti live quarry shooting.......as allegedly is public opinion, (according to stuff posted on social media).......If this is the case, we ain’t gonna find any government (or their departments) supporting anything that they believe goes against public opinion, and potentially loses them support/votes!

As for Boris proroguing Parliament, it wasn’t illegal until the judiciary declared it to be so! Because there was no precedent that said it was, the judges sitting decided it was “in their opinion” illegal....another team of judges might well decide otherwise!.......as there was no precedent, both may or may not legitimately claim they were/are right!....and of course there were subsequent allegations of bias, as some of the judges, it turned out......we’re accused of having a remainer bias!.........But when the judgement was reached, it was too late to appeal (the time would have passed, before a decision was made) so no point in throwing good money after bad, to appeal the decision because if it had been overturned it would have been “after the event!”
 

As I recall, Wild justice won nothing in the courts.......Defra threw the towel in before it got to court......because Defra’s own GL’s were allegedly, poorly drafted, likely illegal, and as a consequence challengeable in court!
 

Also, as I understand it, the NFU are to go to JR because of Carrie Symonds involvement in getting Defra to reverse their decision to approve the cull on badgers in Derbyshire!

[DUNKS]

4 hours ago, panoma1 said:

The police are the agents (enforcers) of the state (government) and the government will always support the police.......so nobody can realistically win and make either of them do anything they don’t want to do! So what are BASC supposed to do if the authorities (state) don’t want to play?

Nothing to do with govmint or police. The checking of medical records has just got to be a good idea. IF THE DOCTORS COULD JUST BE BROUGHT INTO LINE IT WOULD BE AN EXCELLENT SCHEME. Do you honestly think the powers that be would appose this.

[David BASC]

There is no law preventing doctors from charging for services outside of their NHS contract, nor anything stopping a Dr charging nothing or £500 for this service,or indeed  from refusing to help at all. Hence BASC setting up a low cost alternative for members who's Dr either will not comply or who wants to charge high prices

[Dave-G]

34 minutes ago, DUNKS said:

Nothing to do with govmint or police. The checking of medical records has just got to be a good idea. IF THE DOCTORS COULD JUST BE BROUGHT INTO LINE IT WOULD BE AN EXCELLENT SCHEME. Do you honestly think the powers that be would appose this.

Doctors know eff all about a shooters integrity, honesty or morals: That's why we have to provide references from people who know us and how we behave in every day life and circumstances.

[mick miller]

5 minutes ago, Dave-G said:

Doctors know eff all about a shooters integrity, honesty or morals: That's why we have to provide references from people who know us and how we behave in every day life and circumstances.

Not to mention they have the one of the highest levels of self-admitted alcoholism and drug dependency in any profession. I feel safer already though.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/nhs-doctors-substance-abuse-stress-burnout-rising-gps-addiction-health-service-bma-clare-gerada-a7805571.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4080424.stm

http://sick-doctors-trust.co.uk/page/addiction

https://www.ukat.co.uk/addiction-treatment/doctors-human-addiction-rife-within-medical-profession/

So thanks for that BMA et al.

Edited January 29, 2020 by mick miller

[panoma1]

57 minutes ago, DUNKS said:

Nothing to do with govmint or police. The checking of medical records has just got to be a good idea. IF THE DOCTORS COULD JUST BE BROUGHT INTO LINE IT WOULD BE AN EXCELLENT SCHEME. Do you honestly think the powers that be would appose this.

Of course it is! The police pushed the medical involvement aspect (GP’s placing a marker, as a certificate holder on an applicants medical records) and the shooting representatives agreed it, on the basis that, if there was nothing of concern to the GP on the applicants medical records, no further action by the GP was required, there was to be no charge imposed on the applicant for this) home office guidance resulted from this agreement, which was promptly reneged upon by the GP’s....the police also reneged on the agreement, by supporting the GP’s getting paid, insisting an applicant must have a GP to confirm, in writing, the applicants medical declaration......at the applicants cost!

Oh! And the government, via the Home Office are also involved as seem to be supporting the police and the GP’s (who both  reneged on the agreement) at the expense of the applicants (us!) 

 

Edited January 29, 2020 by panoma1

[rbrowning2]

Panoma1 think we will agree to disagree I think it is wrong to give up on using a Judge via the JR process to decide on the rights and wrongs of the current mess that is medical reporting, on the bases that everybody is against field sports.

As it is we just continue to allow the mess to get worst, in Scotland now it is reported that a GP is requesting a certificate holder to have an annual check-up otherwise the GP will inform the police they are no longer suitable to own firearms. How long before that becomes common practice or the Police decide the report must come from your registered GP not some alternative GP who has never met you, of if it is an alternative GP then it must be a proper full medical check up, not just a look at your records. The goal post keep moving.

When and where will you or BASC draw the red line such that when crossed it would considered appropriate to try the JR process?

Yes WJ only had to send the JR pre protocol letter to DEFRA and they threw the towel in regarding GL.

How without trying do we know what the result of a JR against the medical process would achieve?  Is it not better to try and fail then never try at all?

WJ now have a JR in for the release of wild game birds and yes the NFU have a JR in for badger culls. And I bet if WJ are not happy with what happens very soon with the renewal of the GLs They will issue another JR.

Whilst We wait for a miracle that canvassing MP will win them over to deliver a medical process that is fair, proportionate and works.

I am not anti BASC I think they are, given their expertise and financial strength the best hope we have for the future but they need to change tactics because canvassing MPs as history has shown has never got us anywhere, ie pistol bans, semi auto bans, etc,
 

 

 

 

 

[andrewluke]

39 minutes ago, David BASC said:

There is no law preventing doctors from charging for services outside of their NHS contract, nor anything stopping a Dr charging nothing or £500 for this service,or indeed  from refusing to help at all. Hence BASC setting up a low cost alternative for members who's Dr either will not comply or who wants to charge high prices

how much is this low cost alternative for members?

[panoma1]

22 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

Panoma1 think we will agree to disagree I think it is wrong to give up on using a Judge via the JR process to decide on the rights and wrongs of the current mess that is medical reporting, on the bases that everybody is against field sports.

As it is we just continue to allow the mess to get worst, in Scotland now it is reported that a GP is requesting a certificate holder to have an annual check-up otherwise the GP will inform the police they are no longer suitable to own firearms. How long before that becomes common practice or the Police decide the report must come from your registered GP not some alternative GP who has never met you, of if it is an alternative GP then it must be a proper full medical check up, not just a look at your records. The goal post keep moving.

When and where will you or BASC draw the red line such that when crossed it would considered appropriate to try the JR process?

Yes WJ only had to send the JR pre protocol letter to DEFRA and they threw the towel in regarding GL.

How without trying do we know what the result of a JR against the medical process would achieve?  Is it not better to try and fail then never try at all?

WJ now have a JR in for the release of wild game birds and yes the NFU have a JR in for badger culls. And I bet if WJ are not happy with what happens very soon with the renewal of the GLs They will issue another JR.

Whilst We wait for a miracle that canvassing MP will win them over to deliver a medical process that is fair, proportionate and works.

I am not anti BASC I think they are, given their expertise and financial strength the best hope we have for the future but they need to change tactics because canvassing MPs as history has shown has never got us anywhere, ie pistol bans, semi auto bans, etc,
 

 

 

 

 

rbrowning2, I give up on nothing! If the Police, the medical profession and the government (through the Home office) decide to support and recommend the introduction of draconian control/medical involvement over gun licensing (bearing in mind parliament, through MP’s make law)........on what grounds would BASC or anyone else ask, let alone receive permission for a Judicial Review?

Shooting interests can not impose their will on others unless we can identify a case to take to law....this is why WJ have been effective.........they identified a case and DEFRA threw the towel in.....allegedly on advice that they couldn’t win!

Do you think it wise for BASC to take a case to law, if the  legal advice is.....you can’t win?

Edited January 29, 2020 by panoma1

[Newbie to this]

21 minutes ago, andrewluke said:

how much is this low cost alternative for members?

 

On 27/01/2020 at 20:34, David BASC said:

Evening. there us no fixed fee but it will be way below what your GP is asking! Just give our firearms team a call on 01244 573010 and they will help point you in the right direction.

David

It seems that BASC are yet to know themselves 

8 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

Do you think it wise for BASC to take a case to law, if the  legal advice is.....you can’t win?

Perhaps that is a question they should ask their members

[David BASC]

There are several doctors on the list, I expect the fee charged to be around the £50 mark

 

[Newbie to this]

35 minutes ago, David BASC said:

There are several doctors on the list, I expect the fee charged to be around the £50 mark

 

So on par with the https://medcert.co.uk Guys.

Edited January 29, 2020 by Newbie to this