trap grade and pigeon grade in distinguishing guns difference between pigeon grade and trap grade rating

[Lars1]

please advise where  or if a reference book exists to help me understand pigeon grade, trap grade and grade 5

[Smokersmith]

2 are grades, and one is a type of gun.

Pigeon Grade was typically used by Winchester on their 101 range and  for me sits in the middle of their quality band.

Grade 5 is used by manufacturers such as Miroku for their top grade (typically better wood).

Trap is a style, and will typically have longer barrels, tighter chokes, and a higher comb.

Some sweeping generalisations above, but  each manufacturer uses different systems and the choices cut across them.

[vmaxphil]

Different manufacturers have different meanings for grades above the base grade and in different models, so a pigeon grade in one manufacture might not exist in another's as for a book I doubt it 

[theshootist]

This might help if you're looking at a Winchester https://gunvalues.gundigest.com/winchester-repeating-arms/model-101-series/

[Centrepin]

As a rough guide, if a Miroku any model is grade 1 its basic wood basic engraving, say for round figures £1500 new.

The same Miroku grade 3 better looking wood, better looking engraving, same action and barrels £2500 new.

Same again grade 5, top engraving, very pretty wood,  many more £ss.

Second hand values the same.

Trap, game and sport are styles. Harder to define unless you are shooting a particular style. A sweeping generalisation is Sport or Sporter, is a more general purpose model to suit everything.

I'm sure one thing everybody will agree on, the fit and do you like it, do you feel comfy with it is the most important thing. 

[Scully]

If we’re talking Winchester then as others have said, the ‘pigeon’ grade sits somewhere in the middle. Loosely, models were Field, Lightweight, Waterfowl, before stepping up to Pigeon, Diamond and the Grand European. Trap is a style of shotgun and not a grade, and you can buy all the above ( except Waterfowl ) grades  in Trap guise. 
There never has been a grade 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5 in Winchester as far as I know, but I think all the above were also available in what Winchester called ‘Exhibition grade/wood ‘ which was equivalent to what other manufacturers refer to as G5. 
None of this applies to the later 5500/6500 series as far as I’m aware. 

Edited February 13, 2020 by Scully

[Gordon R]

Winchester had a Supergrade, which I recall as sitting below Pigeon Grade.

[Scully]

2 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

Winchester had a Supergrade, which I recall as sitting below Pigeon Grade.

I knew I’d missed one! Couldn’t be bothered to get book out! 👍

[Gordon R]

Many grades and not a dud among them. Owned Lighweight, Supergrade, Diamond and Grand European.

[Scully]

6 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

Many grades and not a dud among them. Owned Lighweight, Supergrade, Diamond and Grand European.

Totally agree. Waterfowl and Supergrade are the two I've never owned, and I currently still own a Field, GE, and 8500. Great bits of kit. 

[Westley]

Same as Gordon,  in fact I have a Pigeon Grade Trap sitting in my cupboard at the moment. It will be going on the market soon.

The Pigeon Grade has a top rib like the M6   !

Edited February 13, 2020 by Westley

[Konor]

The Winchester model 12 came in Field, Super Pigeon, Skeet , Trap and Tournament grades according to the level of finish,details can be found in George Madis book on the Model 12.

I used to have a Winchester model 23 Waterfowl model. Multichoke 28 inch barrel and a blue receiver nice gun.

[Scully]

1 hour ago, Konor said:

The Winchester model 12 came in Field, Super Pigeon, Skeet , Trap and Tournament grades according to the level of finish,details can be found in George Madis book on the Model 12.

I used to have a Winchester model 23 Waterfowl model. Multichoke 28 inch barrel and a blue receiver nice gun.

There was a ‘Goose’ model also. I owned one. The 32” barrel was like looking down a drain pipe and was choked full. It was a take down S1 and was complete in its original wood, canvas and leather case. 
I should never have parted with it. 😕

[BrowningB7]

Browning also done a B25 pigeon grade

 

[Konor]

11 hours ago, Scully said:

There was a ‘Goose’ model also. I owned one. The 32” barrel was like looking down a drain pipe and was choked full. It was a take down S1 and was complete in its original wood, canvas and leather case. 
I should never have parted with it. 😕

I think that was designated  the Heavy Duck Gun model Scully. The Olins were avid duck hunters and when they bought the Winchester company in 1931 I think they were responsible for the introduction of this model in the mid 1930s

Edited February 14, 2020 by Konor
Clarification

[Scully]

5 hours ago, Konor said:

I think that was designated  the Heavy Duck Gun model Scully. The Olins were avid duck hunters and when they bought the Winchester company in 1931 I think they were responsible for the introduction of this model in the mid 1930s

I seem to recall mine was stamped on the barrel, but I may be wrong. I can’t think where else I’ve seen it stamped, but I’ve definitely seen it. I’ll have a look in my book later. 
There was also a ‘Tournament’ grade and various ‘custom’ grades. 

[Gordon R]

I forgot - I also had one of the later - 6500 I think - black action trap, with raised rib. A very well balanced gun, despite the 32" barrels.

[Smokersmith]

56 minutes ago, Scully said:

I seem to recall mine was stamped on the barrel, but I may be wrong

If you're referring to the "Olin" part … then it's deffo stamped on my 101 Waterfowl barrel 

[Scully]

1 minute ago, Smokersmith said:

If you're referring to the "Olin" part … then it's deffo stamped on my 101 Waterfowl barrel 

Thanks, I was referring to the word 'Goose'. 👍

[Scully]

55 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

I forgot - I also had one of the later - 6500 I think - black action trap, with raised rib. A very well balanced gun, despite the 32" barrels.

Sounds very much like my 8500, which also has a raised rib. The action is blacked with a very elegantly fine gold line around the outside edge of the action. I have often used it for sporting events even though it's choked full and extra full.  It is impressive on the tower at Westlands; those who see it want a go with it, despite it being an old gun now. Great fun! 

[Gordon R]

You might well be right about it being an 8500. I know it wasn't the 5500, but after that - distant memory. I regret getting rid of it now. Mine was multi-choke - took it to the Countryman at Derby, who said there was no market for fixed choke trap guns. When I pointed out it was a multi-choke, he merely looked stupid - which he was.

[Scully]

Winchester did a 6500 in Trap configuration, but that’s all I know about them. 

[Konor]

1 hour ago, Scully said:

I seem to recall mine was stamped on the barrel, but I may be wrong. I can’t think where else I’ve seen it stamped, but I’ve definitely seen it. I’ll have a look in my book later. 
There was also a ‘Tournament’ grade and various ‘custom’ grades. 

Hi Scully  I don’t think any of the 3 inch chambered model 12s had their grade stamped on the barrel but the heavy duck guns were stamped super x and the 3 inch chamber length.Most  of them were field grade and a few in pigeon grade.

[Scully]

Just now, Konor said:

Hi Scully  I don’t think any of the 3 inch chambered model 12s had their grade stamped on the barrel but the heavy duck guns were stamped super x and the 3 inch chamber length.Most  of them were field grade and a few in pigeon grade.

You may well be right; but I know I've seen it somewhere. It may have been on the brochure which was in the case; I'm looking to see if I have any pic's of it....the brochure that is. 

Most 'Olin' barrels were also stamped with 'Winchester Superior Proofed Steel' which can cause confusion as some people think this means they were proofed for steel shot. They weren't. 

[Konor]

45 minutes ago, Scully said:

You may well be right; but I know I've seen it somewhere. It may have been on the brochure which was in the case; I'm looking to see if I have any pic's of it....the brochure that is. 

Most 'Olin' barrels were also stamped with 'Winchester Superior Proofed Steel' which can cause confusion as some people think this means they were proofed for steel shot. They weren't. 

Hi Scully the 3inch chambered guns were marked super speed super X 3 inch, that’s a cartridge that the Winchester Western company developed for longe range shooting. My first attempt was from memory the above googled. Dave Riffle s and the George Madis books are a great source of info on the model 12 ,mine are boxed in the house. Interestingly the two writers didn’t always agree and serial number dating is one area I think I remember where they disagreed.

I share your memory problem in that my Winchester model 23 side by side was marked on the bottom of the receiver either wildfowl or waterfowl model but can’t remember which ,the American models were marked heavy duck models and came in 12 and 20 bore models.

Ive always had a liking for Winchester products and have an as new Winchester Parker reproduction side by side (built in the same factory as the 101 s and 101 Classic Doubles )Tom Skeuse was the initiator of that short lived model .

Unfortunately finding good model 12s here in the UK is a challenge .

Just a thought you wouldn’t be thinking of the Marlin  Goose  Gun model from memory it came in a bolt action with a 36 inch barrel. I have a cousin who owned one and an even longer Mossberg pump action  never shot them but they seemed to swing fine 

Edited February 14, 2020 by Konor
Adding info