Tesla

[robbiep]

1 hour ago, Lloyd90 said:

If it’s so bad why do they keep fronting it?

Because they are in so deep that to not continue putting money in is to admit they were wrong in the first place - and that all the money they have already put in was a complete waste. Far easier to keep on pretending to themselves that Elon Musk actually has a business plan that makes a profit at some point.

Tesla might be one of the big players in 20 years. Or they may well have gone bust.

The biggest problem for them right now is that the new customers for the Model 3 are coming from other brands to Tesla for company cars due to the low BIK, and they are complaining about fit, finish and lots of niggly quality issues - along with a number of major quality failures. They aren't getting the EV evangelists any more, but hard-headed people who want a car that starts in the morning, doesn't go all flaky on them with software problems, and doesn't have bits of trim that creak and fall off, or a paint job that looks like it was done by a 6 year old

That's the problem with upscaling like Tesla are doing right now. Peugeot, Toyota, BMW ... they can all introduce an EV easily, and service customer needs and problems on the existing comprehensive national dealer network. Tesla currently (excuse the pun) have 9 locations in England, 1 each in Scotland and Ireland, and none at all in Wales or Norn Iron. You're a customer with problems and living in Newcastle, your nearest service loation is either Leeds or Edinburgh !

[AVB]

23 minutes ago, robbiep said:

Because they are in so deep that to not continue putting money in is to admit they were wrong in the first place - and that all the money they have already put in was a complete waste. Far easier to keep on pretending to themselves that Elon Musk actually has a business plan that makes a profit at some point.

Tesla might be one of the big players in 20 years. Or they may well have gone bust.

The biggest problem for them right now is that the new customers for the Model 3 are coming from other brands to Tesla for company cars due to the low BIK, and they are complaining about fit, finish and lots of niggly quality issues - along with a number of major quality failures. They aren't getting the EV evangelists any more, but hard-headed people who want a car that starts in the morning, doesn't go all flaky on them with software problems, and doesn't have bits of trim that creak and fall off, or a paint job that looks like it was done by a 6 year old

That's the problem with upscaling like Tesla are doing right now. Peugeot, Toyota, BMW ... they can all introduce an EV easily, and service customer needs and problems on the existing comprehensive national dealer network. Tesla currently (excuse the pun) have 9 locations in England, 1 each in Scotland and Ireland, and none at all in Wales or Norn Iron. You're a customer with problems and living in Newcastle, your nearest service loation is either Leeds or Edinburgh !

True regarding service centres. But you have to remember that they will often fix the problem with an over the air software update or send somebody around to fix it on your doorstep. Tell me which other manufacturers offer that? 

[buze]

I think people are wrong to assume that the other manufacturers are "years behind". I've got a new 'loaded' BMW X5' that has pretty much *everything* TESLA claims as 'autopilot' however none of them BMW has driven their car into the back of a lorry and killed the driver.

The level of tech in cars is mindblowing, and sure, Tesla has the electric car thing panned out, but the other manufacturers *are not sleeping* -- There are some other electric cars that don't have the 'twitter' effect which are amazing, and getting better.

I don't mind Musk, I'd be happy if he stuck to sending his cars into orbit :-)

[mick miller]

You can stick your EV where the sun doesn't shine. May as well import 20 kids from Africa, harness them husky like to your motor and have them pull you along till they collapse from exhaustion and simply cut out the planet killing, polluting middle-man. Perhaps housing them in cramped, cold accommodation and making them rely on meagre rations too would complete the ordeal for them?

The truth about your EV car: https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/green-battery-revolution-powering-social-and-environmental-risks

and..  https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/09/the-hidden-cost-of-the-electric-car-boom-child-labour/ 

Just like so many other green myths (reducing UK farming land for cattle and livestock), the truth is that the companies behind the push are no more socially or environmentally responsible that the ones they claim to replace. Modern day slavery, pollution and increasing pressure on water poor regions is still the modus operandi wherever shareholder profit is key.

Unless and until these companies begin to address the issues in their supply chains, their claims to being ecologically and ethically superior are simply hollow. Pushing your pollution onto poorer, less regulated economies doesn't represent a step forward for the planet to my mind.

Edited February 20, 2020 by mick miller

[Raja Clavata]

10 hours ago, buze said:

I think people are wrong to assume that the other manufacturers are "years behind". I've got a new 'loaded' BMW X5' that has pretty much *everything* TESLA claims as 'autopilot' however none of them BMW has driven their car into the back of a lorry and killed the driver.

The level of tech in cars is mindblowing, and sure, Tesla has the electric car thing panned out, but the other manufacturers *are not sleeping* -- There are some other electric cars that don't have the 'twitter' effect which are amazing, and getting better.

I don't mind Musk, I'd be happy if he stuck to sending his cars into orbit 🙂

The link below is to a report based on tear-down that suggests the others are years behind.

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-hardware-3-frightens-toyota-vw-model-3-teardown/

Tesla "own" the hardware and software in their vehicles and have not split it all up across a wide supply based like all the conventional OEMs have. They want to adopt the Tesla model but have to evolve to that position due to legacy. With German OEMs in particular they are somewhat constrained through buy-in on a consortia called AUTOSAR which is an open standard for software in the cars but due to design by committee (and other factors) it does not move quickly enough to keep up with trends and competitors who are not constrained in the same way.

FWIW I am a BMW fan.

[McSpredder]

13 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

The link below is to a report based on tear-down that suggests the others are years behind.

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-hardware-3-frightens-toyota-vw-model-3-teardown/

Tesla marketing  department says that Tesla cars are best.   Reminds me of a famous quote from Mandy Rice-Davies.

[buze]

I worked for a few years at Renesas, making System on Chips for mostly the automotive industry, the stuff that goes into infotainment systems etc. I can tell you the stuff on the bench was top of the range. Sure, it's never the same part as the consumer one as it has to be hardened so you lose a bit of spec compared to say, a smartphone, and the tech on the bench wouldnt see a consumer in a car for a couple of years, but it was definitely not "years" behind

[Raja Clavata]

10 minutes ago, buze said:

I worked for a few years at Renesas, making System on Chips for mostly the automotive industry, the stuff that goes into infotainment systems etc. I can tell you the stuff on the bench was top of the range. Sure, it's never the same part as the consumer one as it has to be hardened so you lose a bit of spec compared to say, a smartphone, and the tech on the bench wouldnt see a consumer in a car for a couple of years, but it was definitely not "years" behind

In that case we may "know" one another - I worked at Visteon as the global platform Manager for reconfigurable instrument clusters 🙂 

17 minutes ago, McSpredder said:

Tesla marketing  department says that Tesla cars are best.   Reminds me of a famous quote from Mandy Rice-Davies.

That's what ALL marketing departments say about their products. But the article isn't about the overall car, it's about the tech  (computing hardware) currently in the car and how future proof it is. Just about everybody in the industry accepts that Tesla have an advantage - many are trying to emulate it (particularly new OEMs in China and US West Coast). 

[bavarianbrit]

Ha I also worked at Visteon in 2006 2008 as  IP development engineer on VW Polo.

Did a stint later at Tesla too, at least he is moving the envelope forward a bit. The plant in Germany was earmarked for BMW but they went to Leipzig so the trees are all low quality paper wood so no great loss and Musk is planting 3 times that amount elsewhere to compensate, another problem is the ordinance buried on the site allied and russian.

[Deker]

17 hours ago, buze said:

I think people are wrong to assume that the other manufacturers are "years behind". I've got a new 'loaded' BMW X5' that has pretty much *everything* TESLA claims as 'autopilot' however none of them BMW has driven their car into the back of a lorry and killed the driver.

The level of tech in cars is mindblowing, and sure, Tesla has the electric car thing panned out, but the other manufacturers *are not sleeping* -- There are some other electric cars that don't have the 'twitter' effect which are amazing, and getting better.

I don't mind Musk, I'd be happy if he stuck to sending his cars into orbit 🙂

 

It's not the electronics that are years behind (although my 3 series electrics are poorly designed at best, unlike the mechanical side of the car which is brilliant), it's the move to the electric that they're behind, BMW are still developing hybrid vehicles which Boris has all but killed off in the latest green statement, the same for company car BIK tax, as far as that goes electric is the way forward and that's what will hit BMW and Merc more than anything, losing out to the company car market.

[robbiep]

20 hours ago, AVB said:

True regarding service centres. But you have to remember that they will often fix the problem with an over the air software update or send somebody around to fix it on your doorstep. Tell me which other manufacturers offer that? 

Virtually all of them do when you're under warranty.

For example, I had an EGR failure on my Golf a few years ago, at about 2 years old. An hour and a half later there's a technician with me, the EGR valve is replaced there and then on the roadside. If they hadn't been able to fix it they'd have recovered the car to the nearest dealership and given me a loan car for a few days.

Subaru offer exactly the same, as do VW - I'm sure most of the manufacturers do, I've no direct experience

If Tesla owner's problems and breakdowns can 'often' be fixed with a software update then it points more to badly, incompletely built and tested software in the first place

[AVB]

16 minutes ago, robbiep said:

Virtually all of them do when you're under warranty.

For example, I had an EGR failure on my Golf a few years ago, at about 2 years old. An hour and a half later there's a technician with me, the EGR valve is replaced there and then on the roadside. If they hadn't been able to fix it they'd have recovered the car to the nearest dealership and given me a loan car for a few days.

Subaru offer exactly the same, as do VW - I'm sure most of the manufacturers do, I've no direct experience

If Tesla owner's problems and breakdowns can 'often' be fixed with a software update then it points more to badly, incompletely built and tested software in the first place

But would they send somebody out for a non fatal problem? Manufactures I know expect you to take it in for that. Tesla will send somebody out for both fatal and non fatal problems and will provide a hire car if can’t be fixed. So in that respect I don’t feel the lack of service centres is as big an issue as you make out.

You have a valid point regarding ‘buggy’ software but fortunately the problems I have encountered have not been that severe. 

The point others have made regarding other manufacturers catching up is true but I feel they are still hampered by being constrained by being traditional manufacturers. They still have a space where the engine would go. The dashboard still looks like a traditional dashboard. Tesla didn’t start with a car and convert it to electric they basically put wheels on an ipad! 

[robbiep]

17 minutes ago, AVB said:

But would they send somebody out for a non fatal problem? Manufactures I know expect you to take it in for that. Tesla will send somebody out for both fatal and non fatal problems and will provide a hire car if can’t be fixed. So in that respect I don’t feel the lack of service centres is as big an issue as you make out.

You have a valid point regarding ‘buggy’ software but fortunately the problems I have encountered have not been that severe. 

The point others have made regarding other manufacturers catching up is true but I feel they are still hampered by being constrained by being traditional manufacturers. They still have a space where the engine would go. The dashboard still looks like a traditional dashboard. Tesla didn’t start with a car and convert it to electric they basically put wheels on an ipad! 

Ahh. Tesla fanboy, by any chance ? Willing to forgive any fault, as they are the future ?

My old Golf had only that, ever, as a problem. My current car (BMW 3 series), had a fault with the high beam assist (like adaptive headlights, but they put other cars on the road 'in shadow', whilst still keeping the high beam on roadside verges, etc. Which I've found really useful in one particular case of someone wearing dark clothing, walking along an unlit road. The car coming towards me wasn't getting high-beamed, but I could still see the drunk numpty wandering along. Whereas in 'normal' situation they'd have stood a good chance of getting killed.

In that case, BMW collected the car (on a low loader, in spite of me telling them the car was perfectly driveable), and delivered a replacement car to my workplace for me. At the end of that time, they were quite willing to deliver my car back to me and pick up the loaner, but I was happy to drop it off when I picked up my car.

So yes, other manufacturers do supply that service for 'non-fatal' problems.

You say the software problems have 'not been that severe', in spite of acknowledging that they do suffer from 'buggy' software. So come on then, lets hear about them, warts and all ...

[AVB]

9 minutes ago, robbiep said:

Ahh. Tesla fanboy, by any chance ? Willing to forgive any fault, as they are the future ?

My old Golf had only that, ever, as a problem. My current car (BMW 3 series), had a fault with the high beam assist (like adaptive headlights, but they put other cars on the road 'in shadow', whilst still keeping the high beam on roadside verges, etc. Which I've found really useful in one particular case of someone wearing dark clothing, walking along an unlit road. The car coming towards me wasn't getting high-beamed, but I could still see the drunk numpty wandering along. Whereas in 'normal' situation they'd have stood a good chance of getting killed.

In that case, BMW collected the car (on a low loader, in spite of me telling them the car was perfectly driveable), and delivered a replacement car to my workplace for me. At the end of that time, they were quite willing to deliver my car back to me and pick up the loaner, but I was happy to drop it off when I picked up my car.

So yes, other manufacturers do supply that service for 'non-fatal' problems.

You say the software problems have 'not been that severe', in spite of acknowledging that they do suffer from 'buggy' software. So come on then, lets hear about them, warts and all ...

No I am not a fanboy. And also not an eco warrior. Just want to try to present a balanced view of what are radically different cars. In two years I have suffered from the following. 

Falcon door not opening fully - fixed by OTA update. 

Electric motor powering drivers door failed (could still be opened manually) - fixed by ranger on drive  

Rain sensing windscreen wipers not working - fixed by OTA update. 

Suspension uneven - fixed at service centre (could have been done on drive but I was passing)

Car refused to power up (actually turned out to be a problem with the charging unit) - car collected and hire car provided. 

So not perfect by any means (especially for such an expensive car) but a far better level of service compared to the service I received from Land Rover, Aston Martin, Porsche and Audi. I have never had a BMW so can’t compare. 

I also get a new software download on average once/month. This delivers a variety of features. For example;  Pin to Drive (on the back of a the growth of key cloning), enhanced navigation, updated maps, rain sensing windscreen wipers (yes you could argue should have been standard), auto dipping headlights (likewise), enhanced driver profiles, new games etc. The point here is that you get new features delivered via software that a traditional manufacturer could only deliver via hardware and hence unable to retrofit. 

[robbiep]

That's quite an extensive list of problems for 2 years, on a ... what, £80, 90k car ?

The new software every month just makes me think that the customer is the beta tester, that they can't be bothered actually de-bugging stuff first.

"Hey, we've developed some software. Does it work, is it safe ? No idea. Let's chuck it into customer cars and fix it when they find out the problems"

As I said, the problem that Tesla are now finding is one of scale. What can be made to muddle through when you've got a few hundred cars out there don't survive when you've got tens of thousands of cars on the road, but the service network only there for the few hundred cars.

But (as I already said), Tesla's biggest problem is one of money. If they can't, at some point, turn in regular annual profits, then they are doomed to failure. Personally, I hope they can. But everything in their past says they can't, and Elon Musk has got no idea on how to actually create and run a business that can accomplish that

[AVB]

55 minutes ago, robbiep said:

That's quite an extensive list of problems for 2 years, on a ... what, £80, 90k car ?

The new software every month just makes me think that the customer is the beta tester, that they can't be bothered actually de-bugging stuff first.

"Hey, we've developed some software. Does it work, is it safe ? No idea. Let's chuck it into customer cars and fix it when they find out the problems"

As I said, the problem that Tesla are now finding is one of scale. What can be made to muddle through when you've got a few hundred cars out there don't survive when you've got tens of thousands of cars on the road, but the service network only there for the few hundred cars.

But (as I already said), Tesla's biggest problem is one of money. If they can't, at some point, turn in regular annual profits, then they are doomed to failure. Personally, I hope they can. But everything in their past says they can't, and Elon Musk has got no idea on how to actually create and run a business that can accomplish that

Yes too many problems for any car. You’ve obviously never owned a Land Rover or Aston Martin though (tongue in cheek). 

As for new software every month. I think it is called ‘agile’ nowadays. 

I do agree that Musk isn’t the one to take the company forward. He should step back and concentrate on innovation. He won’t though as his ego is too big (which is why he left PayPal) and problem is also that an established CEO would want to run things the traditional way and that is just that Musk doesn’t want. 

[buze]

My main problem with Teslas isn't the electric bits really, it's the lack of radar/lidar. My X5 has one big radar and several microwave ones around, and the self driving is very very good, and getting better because the Update I got this november made it even better and smoother.

but tesla /insists/ their system is better, despite actually killing people. Sure the fanboys says the driver is expected to pay attention, but anyone who used that sort of driver assistance will KNOW that once you 'trust' the system, you do *not* pay the same level of attention as before you used it. So if the requirement for 'autopilot' (as they call it) is 100%, permanent driver input, what *use* is that anyway?

Turns out "AI" aka neural networks are easily foolable . I worked on "neural networks" for /years/ before it was trendy (I did the OCR systems in Apple Powerbooks in the mid-90's that used neural networks) and I know very well how easy they are to fool. There's no magic, and I THINK that the industry is starting to realize that. Which makes Tesla's 'camera only with AI" a frigging liability.

[ClemFandango]

3 hours ago, buze said:

My main problem with Teslas isn't the electric bits really, it's the lack of radar/lidar. My X5 has one big radar and several microwave ones around, and the self driving is very very good, and getting better because the Update I got this november made it even better and smoother.

but tesla /insists/ their system is better, despite actually killing people. Sure the fanboys says the driver is expected to pay attention, but anyone who used that sort of driver assistance will KNOW that once you 'trust' the system, you do *not* pay the same level of attention as before you used it. So if the requirement for 'autopilot' (as they call it) is 100%, permanent driver input, what *use* is that anyway?

Turns out "AI" aka neural networks are easily foolable . I worked on "neural networks" for /years/ before it was trendy (I did the OCR systems in Apple Powerbooks in the mid-90's that used neural networks) and I know very well how easy they are to fool. There's no magic, and I THINK that the industry is starting to realize that. Which makes Tesla's 'camera only with AI" a frigging liability.

Jesus the punctuation in that is a nightmare. 

[bavarianbrit]

9 hours ago, AVB said:

Yes too many problems for any car. You’ve obviously never owned a Land Rover or Aston Martin though (tongue in cheek). 

As for new software every month. I think it is called ‘agile’ nowadays. 

I do agree that Musk isn’t the one to take the company forward. He should step back and concentrate on innovation. He won’t though as his ego is too big (which is why he left PayPal) and problem is also that an established CEO would want to run things the traditional way and that is just that Musk doesn’t want. 

I was the engineer leading the falcon door area but I only had a 3 month visa so someone had to take over and finish it in the typical US way to throw money at it. It is a £150K suv not 80K.

Edited February 21, 2020 by bavarianbrit

[mick miller]

9 hours ago, AVB said:

You’ve obviously never owned a Land Rover...

Funny thing that, my old 300Tdi Defender (now for sale guys) that I have driven, daily for 12 years has broken down once - when I ran out of fuel. It's 23 years old today (like to see any Tesla lasting that long). My old series 11a, which I drove for 10 years, never broke down once (and it's still on the road). There is a lesson in simplicity there and, if you look closely, another in being genuinely environmentally friendly. Although, clearly, parts have broken during that time, but again, I could replace all of those myself, with regular, simple hand tools, on the driveway.

I would say that any of the newer, ECU sporting and over-fangled Land Rovers do spend an inordinate amount of time in the repair shops it seems and it would be true to say that the panel fit in any old Defender leaves a lot to be desired.

Edited February 21, 2020 by mick miller

[JohnfromUK]

12 minutes ago, mick miller said:

Funny thing that, my old 300Tdi Defender (now for sale guys) that I have driven, daily for 12 years has broken down once - when I ran out of fuel. It's 23 years old today (like to see any Tesla lasting that long). My old series 11a, which I drove for 10 years, never broke down once (and it's still on the road). There is a lesson in simplicity there and, if you look closely, another in being genuinely environmentally friendly. Although, clearly, parts have broken during that time, but again, I could replace all of those myself, with regular, simple hand tools, on the driveway.

I would say that any of the newer, ECU sporting and over-fangled Land Rovers do spend an inordinate amount of time in the repair shops it seems and it would be true to say that the panel fit in any old Defender leaves a lot to be desired.

My 200 Tdi Defender has (as far as I can remember, but I have owned it for over 20 years) NEVER broken down other than a flat battery, and has never failed to complete a journey.  Yes, it leaks, the wipers are arthritic, the heater a joke, it is noisy, cramped for large people, badly made with bad quality materials - especially anything marked Lucas  ....... but it is reliable.  Mine is 27 years young.

Edited February 21, 2020 by JohnfromUK

[bavarianbrit]

1 minute ago, JohnfromUK said:

My 200 Tdi Defender has (as far as I can remember, but I have owned it for over 20 years) NEVER broken down other than a flat battery, and has never failed to complete a journey.  Yes, it leaks, the wipers are arthritic, the heater a joke, it is noisy, cramped for large people, badly made with bad quality materials ....... but it is reliable.  Mine is 27 years young.

I cannot find a true computer model of the actual co2 etc footprint of a dirty engined vehicle that lasts 30+ years before needing it to be replaced vs the new **** that has to be replaced every 10 years.

[JohnfromUK]

10 minutes ago, bavarianbrit said:

the actual co2 etc footprint

I'm sure the CO2 and particulates are bad enough to wipe out at a stroke the whole of Extinction Rebellion (who are apparently particularly susceptible to these things)......... but since it only does a few hundred miles a year (and in 27 years has done less than 100,000 miles), it's overall footprint would be very good indeed.

Edited February 21, 2020 by JohnfromUK

[AVB]

50 minutes ago, mick miller said:

Funny thing that, my old 300Tdi Defender (now for sale guys) that I have driven, daily for 12 years has broken down once - when I ran out of fuel. It's 23 years old today (like to see any Tesla lasting that long). My old series 11a, which I drove for 10 years, never broke down once (and it's still on the road). There is a lesson in simplicity there and, if you look closely, another in being genuinely environmentally friendly. Although, clearly, parts have broken during that time, but again, I could replace all of those myself, with regular, simple hand tools, on the driveway.

I would say that any of the newer, ECU sporting and over-fangled Land Rovers do spend an inordinate amount of time in the repair shops it seems and it would be true to say that the panel fit in any old Defender leaves a lot to be desired.

I have also got a Defender. But people don’t want cars like them nowadays do they. The majority want all of the creature comforts that go with modern cars with the added complexity that goes with them (as long as they are reliable). And that is where Land Rover fail nowadays.  The new Discoveries/Range Rovers are not. 

Anyway my point wasn’t specifically about the unreliability, or not, of Land Rovers it was that the lack of Tesla Service centres isn’t as big a problem as it would be for other cars as 1) they don’t require servicing and 2) when they break down they have different ways of fixing the problem. 

I’ll leave it there. 

[mick miller]

2 hours ago, AVB said:

I have also got a Defender. But people don’t want cars like them nowadays do they. The majority want all of the creature comforts that go with modern cars with the added complexity that goes with them (as long as they are reliable). And that is where Land Rover fail nowadays.  The new Discoveries/Range Rovers are not. 

Anyway my point wasn’t specifically about the unreliability, or not, of Land Rovers it was that the lack of Tesla Service centres isn’t as big a problem as it would be for other cars as 1) they don’t require servicing and 2) when they break down they have different ways of fixing the problem. 

I’ll leave it there. 

Fair point.