New to the world of .410

[TheBlindHarper]

New user here. I've been shooting shotguns for a couple of years on my father's license and now have my own. I've got a 20 and a 12 bore, both great fun, the 20 is a single-barrel break and the 12 is a sxs. I've been wanting to get myself a small bolt-action .410 for walking the field and popping pigeon and rabbit for my supper, but I'm not too knowledgeable on them.

 

Obviously, with the lesser amount of pellets, the killing range is a bit stunted with a .410. What I want to know is:

What are the furthest animals possible with a .410? I seem to have heard and read 30 / 35 yards, what would you all think?

Will a 25.25-inch barrel and a 2.5" chamber be capable of taking 30 / 35 yard creatures. or would I NEED a big long 30" barrel 3" chamber gun?

If you have experience with a Lepco, Norica, Manu Arms, Weobley & Scott bolt action .410 please let me know how it is. I'm eyeing up the Lepco, as it's a very understated but very pretty little gun.

 

Also, for you reloaders, how much on average do you think you save making your own cartridges? What would I need to get started?

 

Thanks guys.

Edited February 22, 2020 by TheBlindHarper

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Welcome to Pigeon Watch!

Have a look through, there is a lot to read on the wonderful little .410"

If you can find a Webley and Scott bolt action it should be a lovely little gun. I've had a couple for training my youngsters and then sold them on.

Edited February 22, 2020 by TIGHTCHOKE

[ratass]

a 410 will be as affective at range as a 12 or 20 you just have hit them 

 

[old'un]

17 minutes ago, ratass said:

a 410 will be as affective at range as a 12 or 20 you just have hit them 

 

Some good shooting there with a 410.

[Ultrastu]

A .410 shooting a 3 inch shell of around 18 grms should with a 1/2 choke or tighter give kills out to 30 / 35 max  

A 2.5 inch shell with a 12  grm shell is gonna struggle past 25 yds in my opionion.

I had a webley bolt action .410 and it was ok  but limited to its 2.5 inch shells .

It was  slow to load and muzzle heavy .

I then had a baikal hushpower which while quiet ,due to the barrel  porting felt it robbed the carts of power ..

I now have a yildiz single barrel with a mod on the end  its got a 28 inch barrel and 3 inch chambers .and its going now where .its light and perfectly balanved and kills pige and crows out to 35 yds with 19 grm of no6 .

Dont get a gun limited to2.5 inch carts .

[TheBlindHarper]

20 minutes ago, Ultrastu said:

 

Dont get a gun limited to2.5 inch carts .

It's a real shame to hear you say that, haha! I was looking at the Lepco preferably (The first image), but now you say that, the only 3" guns he has are this Norica and a French "Manu" - I'm sure they do the job perfectly, just aesthetically a bit more drawn to the Lepco.

@TIGHTCHOKE & @ratass thanks for the information.

 

 

Edited February 22, 2020 by TheBlindHarper

[enfieldspares]

Think of a .410 as you would your 12 bore or 20 bore but with a reduced shot load. Some have the odd theory that because it has only a bore of just over than 4/5ths of an inch that it shoots a "tighter" pattern. It doesn't! If it's half choke it shoot the same percentage of its total payload pellets in a forty yard pattern as will any other gun bored half choke.

Yes it'll kill, pellet for pellet, as far as will your 12 or 20. Except of course as we all know pattern fails before penetration. So it'll kill as far as you can obtain a "killing pattern" with that number and size of shot. Remembering that 60% of a .410 payload of "not a lot" aka just under a half an ounce is less than 40% of a 12 bore payload of an ounce of #7.

The Webley bolt action is I guess the classic vintage British .410 but the AYA Cosmos, the Winchester or Cooey and others are equally as efficient. Avoid the old BSA bolt action .410 as they don't eject at all well today's modern cartridges marketed as .410 that are loaded in continental cases.

Premium .410 loads are I always once found those loaded by the American makers of Remington and Federal. As in the US they shoot competitive Skeet with .410 and demand a quality product that they can also reload. So American made .410 will usually have true brass heads not yellow metal washed steel as do some continental cases. 

The best advice? What ULTRASTU says. Don't get a gun limited to 2 1/2" cartridges if you can. Or mine. That nice 20 bore? Stick with that for walking the fields!

Edited February 22, 2020 by enfieldspares

[Walker570]

37 minutes ago, Ultrastu said:

A .410 shooting a 3 inch shell of around 18 grms should with a 1/2 choke or tighter give kills out to 30 / 35 max  

A 2.5 inch shell with a 12  grm shell is gonna struggle past 25 yds in my opionion.

I had a webley bolt action .410 and it was ok  but limited to its 2.5 inch shells .

It was  slow to load and muzzle heavy .

I then had a baikal hushpower which while quiet ,due to the barrel  porting felt it robbed the carts of power ..

I now have a yildiz single barrel with a mod on the end  its got a 28 inch barrel and 3 inch chambers .and its going now where .its light and perfectly balanved and kills pige and crows out to 35 yds with 19 grm of no6 .

Dont get a gun limited to2.5 inch carts .

This is as good as it gets.  I shoot 410 almost exclusively these days and average 24 days a year driven game.  I would certainly look at 3 inch chambers because you really are restricting yourself with 2 1/2 dow to as said , about 20yrds.  For rabbits I would want to be shooting #5s and a full choke.   Personally I think you are going to 'waste money on a single bolt gun, then wish you had purchased a double.  Start saving and keep shooting the 20 till you can afford the double. If lucky you might pick up a Yilditz O/U double second hand for around £350 but make certain that you can either fire a few rounds through it or have a good 12 month warranty as there was a definite shipment of faulty shotguns brought in which double fired and I am not sure that problem was sorted out.  Mine I have had for three years now without a problem and love it.  If your just shooting the occasional walk round then stick to factory and Fiocchi or Hull High Pheasant come recommended in 3 inch.  Maybe if your going to shoot upwards of 200 a year then you could go to reloading. Under that the outlay etc is not really worth it.

[enfieldspares]

Maybe worth a look. What he says about what to be aware of. His is the "Deluxe" version BTW.

https://youtu.be/qnD3tpOtX2o?t=399

I've owned a Norica. I preferred it to any Webley for effectiveness. But a Webley is a Webley is a Webley. If that matters to you.

https://youtu.be/5Ke3OK_BU_o?t=292

Here's just how effective:

https://youtu.be/_e5q4yBOW14?t=14

 

Edited February 22, 2020 by enfieldspares

[gotgcoalman]

I have a norica 3 shot and can't fault the little gun.

It's an excellent tool at sensible ranges

A hushpower is a worthwhile add on to bare in mind.

Home loading will save you quite a bit over factory loads. 

 

[TheBlindHarper]

2 hours ago, gotgcoalman said:

I have a norica 3 shot and can't fault the little gun.

It's an excellent tool at sensible ranges

A hushpower is a worthwhile add on to bare in mind.

Home loading will save you quite a bit over factory loads. 

 

What would you say is the far end of its usable range? Have you ever came across a French "Manu arms" bolt .410? As that is my other option for a 3" gun.

[TheBlindHarper]

3 hours ago, Walker570 said:

This is as good as it gets.  I shoot 410 almost exclusively these days and average 24 days a year driven game.  I would certainly look at 3 inch chambers because you really are restricting yourself with 2 1/2 dow to as said , about 20yrds.  For rabbits I would want to be shooting #5s and a full choke.   Personally I think you are going to 'waste money on a single bolt gun, then wish you had purchased a double.  Start saving and keep shooting the 20 till you can afford the double. If lucky you might pick up a Yilditz O/U double second hand for around £350 but make certain that you can either fire a few rounds through it or have a good 12 month warranty as there was a definite shipment of faulty shotguns brought in which double fired and I am not sure that problem was sorted out.  Mine I have had for three years now without a problem and love it.  If your just shooting the occasional walk round then stick to factory and Fiocchi or Hull High Pheasant come recommended in 3 inch.  Maybe if your going to shoot upwards of 200 a year then you could go to reloading. Under that the outlay etc is not really worth it.

Thanks for all that mate. I'm only looking at a bolt gun purely because I like the look of them, though a 28" & 3" AYA Cosmos is a possible purchase depending on what people are saying. I've written off the Weobley & Scott and the Lepco due to their chamber size, just looking at the Norica or a "Manu arms" bolt gun, both have 25.5" barrels with 3" chambers. All they are going to be used for is rabbits and pigeon, nothing fancy.

The Norica is a 25.5" barrel with half-choke

Manu, 25.5" with full choke

AYA, 28", doesn't mention choke.

Will that extra 2.5" on the AYA make that major a difference in pattern density? I've put plenty of cartridges through mine and my fathers guns, but I've never shot a great variety of guns, no really experimented with cartridges, nor paid heed to chokes, so while I've been doing this for a bit I'm not that clued-up on the technical side. Sorry to sound ignorant.

[lancer425]

12 minutes ago, TheBlindHarper said:

What would you say is the far end of its usable range? Have you ever came across a French "Manu arms" bolt .410? As that is my other option for a 3" gun.

With a full choke and 2.5 inch 13 -14gram  of 6s you are looking at 25 yards tops. with a 3 inch full choke v18 gram of 6s perhaps as much as 35 with the right load , but more realistic 30 yards max.   Beyond these ranges you are going to struggle. perhaps 7s and a bit of load development might get you a yard or two more but thats it . stick to those ranges and you got a chance of clean kills.

[Walker570]

I personally like long barrels, mine are 30 inch, but on a little bolt single for sneaking up on rabbits and taking the occasional pigeon then I don't believe the barrel length will make a great deal of difference, accuracy will be the main aim...no pun intended.  This is going to be a fun gun, so don't get too serious about it. Out of the three you list I would go for the AYA but purely because I have confidence in the make.  Pick them all up and see which one wants to go home with you. I think you may rue the day if you don't go for 3 inch chambers mind.  I had a 410 Parker Hale bolt gun nearly 70yrs ago and I would have given my right arm for the cartridges available today.    I have a friend who I occasionally go ferretin rabbits with over open holes and we both shoot moderated 410 Mossberg pumpers and we have so great times on those days with some fast action. Nothing fancy about that either but as much fun as a days driven pheasant if not moreso.

[TheBlindHarper]

2 hours ago, lancer425 said:

With a full choke and 2.5 inch 13 -14gram  of 6s you are looking at 25 yards tops. with a 3 inch full choke v18 gram of 6s perhaps as much as 35 with the right load , but more realistic 30 yards max.   Beyond these ranges you are going to struggle. perhaps 7s and a bit of load development might get you a yard or two more but thats it . stick to those ranges and you got a chance of clean kills.

Thanks. Reading what's been said, I've given up on the 2.5" chambers, going for a 3" definitely. It's a shame, as the little Weobley & Scott's are classic little guns, and very pretty in the right light too, but oh well, ensuring a clean kill comes above aesthetics, always.

1 hour ago, Walker570 said:

I personally like long barrels, mine are 30 inch, but on a little bolt single for sneaking up on rabbits and taking the occasional pigeon then I don't believe the barrel length will make a great deal of difference, accuracy will be the main aim...no pun intended.  This is going to be a fun gun, so don't get too serious about it. Out of the three you list I would go for the AYA but purely because I have confidence in the make.  Pick them all up and see which one wants to go home with you. I think you may rue the day if you don't go for 3 inch chambers mind.  I had a 410 Parker Hale bolt gun nearly 70yrs ago and I would have given my right arm for the cartridges available today.    I have a friend who I occasionally go ferretin rabbits with over open holes and we both shoot moderated 410 Mossberg pumpers and we have so great times on those days with some fast action. Nothing fancy about that either but as much fun as a days driven pheasant if not moreso.

Thanks for that, I am starting to consider the AYA a bit more, but still trying to gather as much information as possible. Yes, I'm sold on the 3" chamber now, seems to be the way.

Never actually been on the guns myself, I've beaten a few times with my uncle when I was 10 / 11 but that's about it. I do sometimes feel like giving it a go but I honestly don't know where I'd begin. I sell farm machinery for a living but I'm not really "in" with those sorts of crowds

[Farmboy91]

13 minutes ago, TheBlindHarper said:

Thanks. Reading what's been said, I've given up on the 2.5" chambers, going for a 3" definitely. It's a shame, as the little Weobley & Scott's are classic little guns, and very pretty in the right light too, but oh well, ensuring a clean kill comes above aesthetics, always.

Thanks for that, I am starting to consider the AYA a bit more, but still trying to gather as much information as possible. Yes, I'm sold on the 3" chamber now, seems to be the way.

Never actually been on the guns myself, I've beaten a few times with my uncle when I was 10 / 11 but that's about it. I do sometimes feel like giving it a go but I honestly don't know where I'd begin. I sell farm machinery for a living but I'm not really "in" with those sorts of crowds

I believe the Webley & Scott came as a 3", possibly called the sportsman as a 2 +1 they aren't the cheapest though.

[enfieldspares]

I'd always choose the half choke option as it gives a wider effective spread within the limitations of the pattern density remaining an effective density. But what really clinches it is that the Norica is a repeater and the Manuarm isn't.

[Walker570]

8 hours ago, TheBlindHarper said:

Thanks. Reading what's been said, I've given up on the 2.5" chambers, going for a 3" definitely. It's a shame, as the little Weobley & Scott's are classic little guns, and very pretty in the right light too, but oh well, ensuring a clean kill comes above aesthetics, always.

Thanks for that, I am starting to consider the AYA a bit more, but still trying to gather as much information as possible. Yes, I'm sold on the 3" chamber now, seems to be the way.

Never actually been on the guns myself, I've beaten a few times with my uncle when I was 10 / 11 but that's about it. I do sometimes feel like giving it a go but I honestly don't know where I'd begin. I sell farm machinery for a living but I'm not really "in" with those sorts of crowds

Had a small day at Grimesthorpe this last season with a team of guns from Somerset. Great people all to do with the land in one way or another, included a chap who dealt in machinery, a land agent, couple of farmers, all just normal folk enjoying a day in some superb countryside. The birds where a bonus.  Don't put yourself down.

[TheBlindHarper]

6 hours ago, Walker570 said:

Had a small day at Grimesthorpe this last season with a team of guns from Somerset. Great people all to do with the land in one way or another, included a chap who dealt in machinery, a land agent, couple of farmers, all just normal folk enjoying a day in some superb countryside. The birds where a bonus.  Don't put yourself down.

Okay, thanks mate that's good to hear.

 

14 hours ago, Farmboy91 said:

I believe the Webley & Scott came as a 3", possibly called the sportsman as a 2 +1 they aren't the cheapest though.

Aye I have seen them online in auctions, look very similar to the Norica's to be fair, though I guess with those sort of utilitarian guns, basic is best.

[Farmboy91]

9 hours ago, TheBlindHarper said:

Okay, thanks mate that's good to hear.

 

Aye I have seen them online in auctions, look very similar to the Norica's to be fair, though I guess with those sort of utilitarian guns, basic is best.

I had the 9mm version and couldn't fault it, the 2.5" are ten a penny at auction but I wouldn't mind one of the 3" myself, especially with a can on the end.

[Adam24]

Looking for advice…….

I recently purchased a little Belgium made single barrel  poachers •410,  which was roughly  made around 1950/60 so I was told. This is the tricky bit I can load either a 2 1/2 or a 3” cartridge fine no problem but as soon as the cartridge has been fired I can’t get the fired cartridge out.. I’ve never had this problem with any other •410 I’ve owned… hoping some one can help. Thanks 

[enfieldspares]

ASSUMING THAT THE THING IS CHAMBERED FOR 2.5" OR 3" is the first thing to be checked. There will be a cartouche or oval which if 2.5" will have 65mm or if 3" 76mm. If it has 50mm then the gun is chambered for 2" cartrides.

Modern .410 cartridges don't have as good a rim as proper old time .410 cartridges. Indeed the modern ones also won't eject at all well in the BSA bolt action .410. Of which there aren't a lot as post 1968 they've been s1 as they've barrels under twenty-four inches.

So other causes may be that the forcing cones or front of the chamber is pitted from never being cleaned and as the case gets fired it expands into that worn area and therefore gives you the difficulty you are experiencing. Or it may be that the head of the case (the brass coloured end) is expanding in such a fashion that it too becomes stuck. 

My advice is try 2" .410 cartridges, If the thing still won't eject then take it back. My own thoughts are it is actually chambered for 2"?

[London Best]

I know this is an old thread, but can’t resist giving my experience of fourten guns. 
I have shot a LOT of stuff with .410 over the last forty years since I bought an old English double from the estate of a deceased friend. That includes driven and walked-up pheasants and partridges, mallard, rabbits, grouse, an odd hare, and countless pigeon and crows. 
Both my fourtens are 2 1/2 inch chambered. I have never felt the need for a fourten magnum 3 inch chambered gun shooting 28 bore or even light 20 bore loads. All my fourten shooting has been with 14 gram (half ounce) loads.
As has been said above, the problem with a fourten is the lack of pellets in the shot load. 
My experience has taught me that the answer is to use smaller shot. I would never buy a fourten cartridge with larger shot than No.7.  (I must say that I would probably take No.5 shot if I wanted to try and shoot geese, but I have no experience of this at all). Pattern fails with 14 grams No.5 around the 20 yards region for pigeon size birds. Energy probably fails around 60 yards, so not a balanced load.
At the ranges at which game can be shot with a fourten then No.7 shot has more than sufficient energy and the higher pellet count maximises the pattern density for the longest range. 
As an experiment I bought a slab of No.9 shot and found it ridiculously effective on crows at 30 yards range. Crows were well hammered. Decoyed pigeon tended to have too many pellets for the table. 
Using No.7 I try and restrict my shooting to around the 30 yard mark, but it is impossible to judge distance accurately to a bird in the air, (Nobody can do this, whatever they tell you), but I am sure many birds have been killed at greater ranges than this over the years. 
To sum up: 

1) You do not need a magnum three inch gun to be effective with a fourten.

2) Use No.7 shot and nothing larger for everything. 

Forget you are using “just” a fourten, try it, crack on and you will be amazed.

[Ultrastu]

Nice Post lb .and I fully agree 

I do have 2  magnum chambered. 410s 

That will shoot 3 inch 19 grm carts and very effective they are too .but I actually prefer to shoot a 2.5 inch 14 grm no7 from my ou. As its just quiet enough not to require ear protection (not so the magnum  carts ) they kill surprisingly well giving away maybe only 5 yds to the bigger brothers .

So that's 25 - 30 yds  .the magnums doing say 30 - 35 yds  . I even shoot 11 grm no 7 carts at decoyed pigeons  when they come right in and these work well in the 15  - 25 yd mark. Agree with the no7  its the size I usually  prefer. But I do have some plastic  wad Italian no 6 (English 5.5 ) and I save these for the crow days  where they float over about 30 yds up .folds em well but these are 19 grm loads  .

 

[London Best]

Somebody gave me two boxes of 2 inch 9 gram No.6 and myself and Dunks on here used them up on clays for fun, not expecting much. 
It was truly amazing how well we did with those little cartridges.