How much are we being told lies about!!

[henry d]

The mass grave idea is to bury rather than cremate people due to the time it takes creating a backlog of corpses.

Councils may require workers who cannot work from home to become cemetery workers, my wife had the option of that or looking after vulnerable children, she chose the latter.

3 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

How is 100% wrong, if these repatriated citizens are put into quarantine until 100% proven they do not have the virus, then 100% the risk it controlled.

If that is the case then we should treat everyone the same, you go into full lockdown! That is how wrong it is.

[Newbie to this]

7 minutes ago, henry d said:

If that is the case then we should treat everyone the same, you go into full lockdown! That is how wrong it is.

Absolutely, we should treat everyone the same.

If I was being repatriated the same as these people, I would gladly go into quarantine. We all have to do our bit.

Unfortunately I'm not being repatriated so I will be treated the same as everyone who is already in country.

By your logic, we should all be in ICU the same as someone who needs it.

Different circumstances, require different approaches.

And when we do go into full lockdown, I will do my part.

Edited April 11, 2020 by Newbie to this

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, Newbie to this said:

How is 100% wrong, if these repatriated citizens are put into quarantine until 100% proven they do not have the virus, then 100% the risk is controlled. They cannot infect people if they do not have the virus.

Once released the risk becomes the same as anyone else out, but it is not increased. It is however increased if you just let them go as they are not showing symptoms.

And again it doesn't matter in any of you hypothetical scenarios as in other hypothetical scenarios just one of these repatriated citizens gets on a packed tube and infects 100s, who go on to infect 100s more.

This is unacceptable when the risk repatriated citizens pose is controllable.

I've used numbers, yours is the totally hypothetical argument 🙄 If you really don't get why 100% is wrong then, well, let me give you the benefit of the doubt and suggest you must be in a highly vulnerable group, in which case I really do wish you well. If you feel strongly enough about this lock yourself and your loved ones down 100%. Good day and even better health!

[henry d]

🤦‍♂️

[Newbie to this]

1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said:

I've used numbers, yours is the totally hypothetical argument 🙄 If you really don't get why 100% is wrong then, well, let me give you the benefit of the doubt and suggest you must be in a highly vulnerable group, in which case I really do wish you well. If you feel strongly enough about this lock yourself and your loved ones down 100%. Good day and even better health!

Your use of numbers can't be used against the threat posed by repatriated citizens. It is totally hypothetical unless we test them all! We simply do not know if they have the virus or not. To suggest numbers as facts is just as hypothetical as any other scenario.

If you can't see that making sure they do not have the virus before releasing them into society is 100% mitigation of the risk, then I'm unsure what logic you are using. If they don't have the virus when let go then they cannot infect anyone, simple. If they then pick it up as anyone else does, well hat is a completely different set of risk, not the one they pose when landing back in the UK.

I also wish you and your family well same as I do for those being repatriated. 

I am already following the Government advice and I do my daily exercise with my house and garden. I haven't been out of my property in over 2 weeks, and no I am not in any vulnerable group.

1 hour ago, henry d said:

🤦‍♂️

I know I feel the same

Edited April 11, 2020 by Newbie to this

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, Newbie to this said:

Your use of numbers can't be used against the threat posed by repatriated citizens. It is totally hypocritical unless we test them all! We simply do not know if they have the virus or not. To suggest numbers as facts is just as hypocritical as any other scenario.

If you can't see that making sure they do not have the virus before releasing them into society is 100% mitigation of the risk, then I'm unsure what logic you are using. If they don't have the virus when let go then they cannot infect anyone, simple. If they then pick it up as anyone else does, well hat is a completely different set of risk, not the one they pose when landing back in the UK.

I also wish you and your family well same as I do for those being repatriated. 

I am already following the Government advice and I do my daily exercise with my house and garden. I haven't been out of my property in over 2 weeks, and no I am not in any vulnerable group.

I know I feel the same

Do you really mean hypocritical?

You really are totally missing the point, I can keep trying to explain this to you but can't make you get it. Please use this time productively and perhaps engage in some online courses in arithmetic, probability & statistics, logic and last but not least rhetoric.

The only number you want to engage on is 100% - like some binary yes / no or right / wrong - if only the real world were that simple!

[millrace]

Ok then in the real world ,,, by letting people arrive in this country unscreened/tested does this increase or decrease the potential spread of this disease?

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, millrace said:

Ok then in the real world ,,, by letting people arrive in this country unscreened/tested does this increase or decrease the potential spread of this disease?

That question has already been answered several times here, do we really need to repeat? And no, the answer does not validate your argument.

[Old farrier]

Quick questions  for you all 

how long from having a test until the results are available? 
where do you go between test and getting the results? 
How long are you contagious for after you first contract this virus ?

how do you identify a carrier?

if you’re testers were tested negative yesterday there’s no reason to assume that they are still negative today good chance they aren’t as there testing potential victims all day long 

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, Old farrier said:

Quick questions  for you all 

how long from having a test until the results are available? 
where do you go between test and getting the results? 
How long are you contagious for after you first contract this virus ?

how do you identify a carrier?

if you’re testers were tested negative yesterday there’s no reason to assume that they are still negative today good chance they aren’t as there testing potential victims all day long 

My cousin is a front line NHS worker and she was tested in the week and waited two days for the result.

My understanding is if the test sample is taken at the same place as lab where the sample will be analysed then it's at least 2.5 hours using the normal procedure here in the UK.

No idea on your other questions.

The other thing to consider is every person you put forward to test is presenting a probalistic risk to the health professional taking the sample.

[Mice!]

8 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

Quick questions  for you all 

how long from having a test until the results are available? 
where do you go between test and getting the results? 
How long are you contagious for after you first contract this virus ?

how do you identify a carrier?

if you’re testers were tested negative yesterday there’s no reason to assume that they are still negative today good chance they aren’t as there testing potential victims all day long 

I think the test takes two days, someone had a test last week after displaying symptoms tested Wednesday I think, result was positive on Friday.

You can only identify a carrier by the symptoms, raised temperature can be an indicator. 

 

[Old farrier]

1 minute ago, Raja Clavata said:

My cousin is a front line NHS worker and she was tested in the week and waited two days for the result.

My understanding is if the test sample is taken at the same place as lab where the sample will be analysed then it's at least 2.5 hours using the normal procedure here in the UK.

No idea on your other questions.

The other thing to consider is every person you put forward to test is presenting a probalistic risk to the health professional taking the sample.

Thank you for the reply appreciate your cousin’s work in the situation 

I think a few more questions should be answered before we (the public) start demanding tests and the likelihood of putting more people at risk taking them 

the results will only file statistics 

[Newbie to this]

31 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Do you really mean hypocritical?

You really are totally missing the point, I can keep trying to explain this to you but can't make you get it. Please use this time productively and perhaps engage in some online courses in arithmetic, probability & statistics, logic and last but not least rhetoric.

The only number you want to engage on is 100% - like some binary yes / no or right / wrong - if only the real world were that simple!

No I meant hypothetical.

And how very condescending of you!

Do you know how many of these repatriated citizens have the virus?

Do you know how many will slip through the so called medical screening?

If you cannot answer these questions with yes, then your numbers are hypothetical.

On the otherhand if they are quarantined. When released they will 100% be virus free, thus the risk has been mitigated 100%. From that point on the risk is the same as everyone else.

If you can't see that then maybe it is you that needs to take your own advice!!!

[Newbie to this]

Are these people posing a risk to the UK while in whatever country they are in?

Will they pose an added risk (no matter how small) to the UK when repatriated?

Will that risk be mitigated by quarantining them?

It is after all what quarantine is designed to do!!!

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, Newbie to this said:

And how very condescending of you!

Do you know how many of these repatriated citizens have the virus?

Do you know how many will slip through the so called medical screening?

If you cannot answer these questions with yes, then your numbers are hypothetical.

On the otherhand if they are quarantined. When released they will 100% be virus free, thus the risk has been mitigated 100%. From that point on the risk is the same as everyone else.

If you can't see that then maybe it is you that needs to take your own advice!!!

With respect you could test the patience of a saint, and I'm certainly no saint.

I already indicated that we don't know some of the numbers in the figures I provided earlier - looks like you're trying to turn round the questions I asked earlier which you didn't reply to.

Anyway, no need for tit for tat.

You are still totally missing the point about the practicalities of what you are suggesting - you are assuming 100% effective quarantine and you can't outline how to do that (because it's impossible) - so your statement of 100% virus free and 100% mitigated is nonsense.

My numbers are not hypothetical, at least the starting figures - but we already established you are unable to grasp this.

You have convinced me that I can't even convince you that you don't even understand the extent of the things you don't understand - you can count that as a victory if you like.

Out of interest, what do you do for a living?

Feel free to have the final word on this but I'm out.

10 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

Thank you for the reply appreciate your cousin’s work in the situation 

I think a few more questions should be answered before we (the public) start demanding tests and the likelihood of putting more people at risk taking them 

the results will only file statistics 

while I tend to agree with you I think there may be something to learn from the approach in Germany - but there appear to be other factors contributing to their lower death rate per capita (which has nothing or at least very little to do with testing) 👍

[Newbie to this]

31 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

With respect you could test the patience of a saint, and I'm certainly no saint.

I already indicated that we don't know some of the numbers in the figures I provided earlier - looks like you're trying to turn round the questions I asked earlier which you didn't reply to.

Anyway, no need for tit for tat.

You are still totally missing the point about the practicalities of what you are suggesting - you are assuming 100% effective quarantine and you can't outline how to do that (because it's impossible) - so your statement of 100% virus free and 100% mitigated is nonsense.

My numbers are not hypothetical, at least the starting figures - but we already established you are unable to grasp this.

You have convinced me that I can't even convince you that you don't even understand the extent of the things you don't understand - you can count that as a victory if you like.

Out of interest, what do you do for a living?

Feel free to have the final word on this but I'm out.

Again how very condescending of you!

Quarantine may not be 100% effective, but it is far more effective than not doing it at all. But we can say, that to be released from quarantine, they have to be clear of the virus, otherwise quarantine continues.

With regards to the numbers, they are hypothetical, unless you know how many of these people are carrying the virus.

It could be all, it could also be none. So hypothetical.

I can count being called thick as a victory, thanks for that.

What has what I do for a living, got to do with anything!

You jumped on me because of a comment I made, which was a reply to one you made. But of course I reverted to type, what type that is I'm unsure as you do not know me, but you assumed I was being anti-immigration. 

I was just pointing out that if repatriation is obligatory for any government that isn't a banana republic, then maybe all the other non banana republics can start repatriation of their citizens to reduce the burden on the UK. Even though it was your words I used to make that point, you took great offence, from what I can tell. But what do I know,I just reverted to 'type'

You then start pushing about the quarantine statement, which wasn't even me that brought it up originally, I just pointed out that in my opinion you missed that, that was what someone else was saying, and you thought they meant leave them where they are, when quite clearly to me they didn't. But what do I know I'm just an uneducated thicko. Sorry should add anti-immigration racist 'type' as well.

But hey ho, at least after being on the receiving end of numerous insults I can count it as a win.

And have the last say.

Edited April 11, 2020 by Newbie to this

[7daysinaweek]

1 hour ago, Old farrier said:

Quick questions  for you all 

how long from having a test until the results are available? 
where do you go between test and getting the results? 
How long are you contagious for after you first contract this virus ?

how do you identify a carrier?

if you’re testers were tested negative yesterday there’s no reason to assume that they are still negative today good chance they aren’t as there testing potential victims all day long 

1) 24-48 hours, deep throat and high nasal swab

2) self isolate

3) If you are symptomatic with fever you are classed as being invective as long as you have a fever greater than 37.8, if this persists after 7 days of self isolating you are still infective and shedding the virus and need to continue to self isolate until fever resolves.

4) you cannot if they are asymptomatic (carrier of the virus with no symptoms) That is why isolating for at risk groups and social distancing is important and hygiene measures. Can identify/suspect a possible individual who are symptomatic, fever, new continuous cough, shortness of breath being the most common presenting symptoms. Other symptoms experienced, headache, muscle pain, vomiting and diarrhoea.

5) Regarding staff testers who are clinically assessing Confirmed and suspected Covid 19 cases they cannot continue if they have onset of symptoms. These staff are kitted with full ppe and all NHS trusts have guidance in place to reduce the risks to staff and patients they are treating. Recommendations from these measures are to decrease staff exposure in high risk consultations to decrease viral loading risks to staff and patients alike.

 

I am currently working in a Covid 19 assessment pod, I tried to post a link to Mices ppe post where I had posted but could not, ? how. Here is the post to give you an idea of how patients are assessed in the community.

 

Mice had asked how thing were going and this was my reply.

 

I am doing everything I possibly can, I started in there 10 days ago and have sort of been seconded from my job and could be ongoing for the next 8-12 weeks then review.

The pod is one of several in the greater area,  gp's , walk in centers and all other primary care services, are not doing any face 2 face consultations with patients with primary/persistent temperature Covid 19 coronavirus symptoms. Gp's are doing all telephone triage/consultations and issue home advice with and or prescriptions. Any individual deemed to be clinically deteriorating that needs face 2 face clinical assessment review are referred to myself if felt they do not immediately need  to be admitted to hospital at time of the gp telephne triage.

The referrals come from gp's, nhs 111.

The process is I go into the pod in the morning, it is called a assessment pod but in reality it is a really posh clinical  portacabin with 5 rooms in it, air extraction, all the mod cons. I have one colleague only with me in the pod who is non clinical and do no face 2 face.

From one end the room 1 is the triage telephone computer room, this is where i get my referrals online and I ring the patients at home. I then give them a specific time slot to come into the pod for assessment, they are told to stay in the vehicle when they arrive. I then don all my ppe in room 2, my colleague rings the patient and tells them to make way straight int the pod were i bring them directly into the clinical assessment room 3. I endeavor to complete the consultation as efficiently as possible as to inform my decision making and decrease my risk of viral loading and risks to the patient. When finished I then de ppe. In room 4 we have a specialist onsite cleaning team who then clean down the pod clinical area and it can be put back into use 30 minutes post.

I shower when my shift has ended and change into normal clothes then it is home for me. I cannot go into any other clinical area of the trust or gp's or anywhere

Outcomes are:

I am happy for the patient to return home with advice and symptom management with or without any medicines I may prescribe and give them worsening symptom advice.

Or

Patient condition severe and warrants hospital admission for care and further investigations in which case we have a process for individuals to be transported 999 etc. 

Just to give you a small insight into how our nhs is trying to support everyone in this difficult and challenging time.

Hope all my fellow PWer's and families are keeping well.

 

Edited April 11, 2020 by 7daysinaweek

[Old farrier]

9 minutes ago, 7daysinaweek said:

1) 24-48 hours, deep throat and high nasal swab

2) self isolate

3) If you are symptomatic with fever you are classed as being invective as long as you have a fever greater than 37.8, if this persists after 7 days of self isolating you are still infective and shedding the virus and need to continue to self isolate until fever resolves.

4) you cannot if they are asymptomatic (carrier of the virus with no symptoms) That is why isolating for at risk groups and social distancing is important and hygiene measures. Can identify/suspect a possible individual who are symptomatic, fever, new continuous cough, shortness of breath being the most common presenting symptoms. Other symptoms experienced, headache, muscle pain, vomiting and diarrhoea.

5) Regarding staff testers who are clinically assessing Confirmed and suspected Covid 19 cases they cannot continue if they have onset of symptoms. These staff are kitted with full ppe and all NHS trusts have guidance in place to reduce the risks to staff and patients they are treating. Recommendations from these measures are to decrease staff exposure in high risk consultations to decrease viral loading risks to staff and patients alike.

atb

7diaw

 

Thank you for the detailed reply 👍

[7daysinaweek]

2 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

Thank you for the detailed reply 👍

I have just added some more information that you may find interesting.

[Raja Clavata]

9 minutes ago, 7daysinaweek said:

1) 24-48 hours, deep throat and high nasal swab

2) self isolate

3) If you are symptomatic with fever you are classed as being invective as long as you have a fever greater than 37.8, if this persists after 7 days of self isolating you are still infective and shedding the virus and need to continue to self isolate until fever resolves.

4) you cannot if they are asymptomatic (carrier of the virus with no symptoms) That is why isolating for at risk groups and social distancing is important and hygiene measures. Can identify/suspect a possible individual who are symptomatic, fever, new continuous cough, shortness of breath being the most common presenting symptoms. Other symptoms experienced, headache, muscle pain, vomiting and diarrhoea.

5) Regarding staff testers who are clinically assessing Confirmed and suspected Covid 19 cases they cannot continue if they have onset of symptoms. These staff are kitted with full ppe and all NHS trusts have guidance in place to reduce the risks to staff and patients they are treating. Recommendations from these measures are to decrease staff exposure in high risk consultations to decrease viral loading risks to staff and patients alike.

 

I am currently working in a Covid 19 assessment pod, I tried to post a link to Mices ppe post where I had posted but could not, ? how. Here is the post to give you an idea of how patients are assessed in the community.

 

Mice had asked how thing were going and this was my reply.

 

I am doing everything I possibly can, I started in there 10 days ago and have sort of been seconded from my job and could be ongoing for the next 8-12 weeks then review.

The pod is one of several in the greater area,  gp's , walk in centers and all other primary care services, are not doing any face 2 face consultations with patients with primary/persistent temperature Covid 19 coronavirus symptoms. Gp's are doing all telephone triage/consultations and issue home advice with and or prescriptions. Any individual deemed to be clinically deteriorating that needs face 2 face clinical assessment review are referred to myself if felt they do not immediately need  to be admitted to hospital at time of the gp telephne triage.

The referrals come from gp's, nhs 111.

The process is I go into the pod in the morning, it is called a assessment pod but in reality it is a really posh clinical  portacabin with 5 rooms in it, air extraction, all the mod cons. I have one colleague only with me in the pod who is non clinical and do no face 2 face.

From one end the room 1 is the triage telephone computer room, this is where i get my referrals online and I ring the patients at home. I then give them a specific time slot to come into the pod for assessment, they are told to stay in the vehicle when they arrive. I then don all my ppe in room 2, my colleague rings the patient and tells them to make way straight int the pod were i bring them directly into the clinical assessment room 3. I endeavor to complete the consultation as efficiently as possible as to inform my decision making and decrease my risk of viral loading and risks to the patient. When finished I then de ppe. In room 4 we have a specialist onsite cleaning team who then clean down the pod clinical area and it can be put back into use 30 minutes post.

I shower when my shift has ended and change into normal clothes then it is home for me. I cannot go into any other clinical area of the trust or gp's or anywhere

Outcomes are:

I am happy for the patient to return home with advice and symptom management with or without any medicines I may prescribe and give them worsening symptom advice.

Or

Patient condition severe and warrants hospital admission for care and further investigations in which case we have a process for individuals to be transported 999 etc. 

Just to give you a small insight into how our nhs is trying to support everyone in this difficult and challenging time.

Hope all my fellow PWer's and families are keeping well.

 

That's very insightful, thanks for this and sincerely, for the work you and your colleagues are doing to overcome this crisis! 👍

Somehow words do not seem adequate.

[AVB]

What ‘civilised’ countries are putting people in quarantine? I am not aware of any but happy to be corrected. A friend of mine recently flew to Australia (end of March iirc) and was simply told to self isolate for 14 days. 

[7daysinaweek]

9 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

That's very insightful, thanks for this and sincerely, for the work you and your colleagues are doing to overcome this crisis! 👍

Somehow words do not seem adequate.

👍

[millrace]

21 minutes ago, AVB said:

What ‘civilised’ countries are putting people in quarantine? I am not aware of any but happy to be corrected. A friend of mine recently flew to Australia (end of March iirc) and was simply told to self isolate for 14 days. 

From 28th March all arrivals to Australia must quarantine/isolate at approved hotel/facility

source.....Gov.uk travel advice

[Newbie to this]

53 minutes ago, AVB said:

What ‘civilised’ countries are putting people in quarantine? I am not aware of any but happy to be corrected. A friend of mine recently flew to Australia (end of March iirc) and was simply told to self isolate for 14 days. 

Urm we did, were the people flown back from Wuhan not put in quarantine. 

[Mice!]

16 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

Urm we did, were the people flown back from Wuhan not put in quarantine. 

You mean all the people on the coaches being driven from airports,  people have short memories. 

1 hour ago, 7daysinaweek said:

I have just added some more information that you may find interesting.

Top man 👏👏