copper or lead, that's the question

[Walker570]

I had some copper coated #6 shot given me by a friend to test in my 410 he also gave me a few FOB 410s which had #9s in, so in order to do a comparative test I carefully removed the top card from the roll over cases emptied the shot and refilled with copper plated #6s in one and lead #7s in the other (didn't have any lead 6s) then very carefully replaced the top cards without disturbing the original turnover.  Today was the first time I had chance to run a test so I set up a large sheet of corrogated card and some white paper on top big enough to shoot both patterns side by side.  In short, I fired both cartridges at a measured 35yrds....quite a long way when you put a tape on it ....  checked the two and as is said , couldn't hit a dustbin lid at two paces, I used a dustbin lide to draw a circle around the centre of each pattern.  Thats 22inch circle.   I then marked them up and counted the number in each circle.  76 for the lead #7s and  86 for the #6  copper coated.

I think a partridge in either pattern would not be felling too well but I felt the copper plated came out on top considering they where sixes, so less in the cartridge than the sevens in the lead.  The lead did spray shot about over a wider area, the copper did stay well in a 30 inch circle and just looked more consistent.

Not scientific I know but tends to lean me to now loading copper coated for the future....................... when it comes that is

This was with the full choke in my Yilditz O/U which is what I normally shoot on driven days

Edited May 2, 2020 by Walker570

[Scully]

Is copper coated acceptable as non toxic? Isn't it still lead? A genuine question. I recall when it was first mooted lead were banned, I was quite upbeat when someone came up with copper coated shot, until I was informed by my RFD that it wouldn't solve anything as it's still lead. 

Very impressive patterns I must say. 

[Walker570]

Need to try some copper with my fibre wads now.  I still believe it will be classed as lead and as the idea is to prevent the deaths of wildfowl then ingesting it would still be not so good.

 

[lancer425]

The copper Coated lead will help stop  fusing  and will improve %, If its heavier thicker plating like the heavy nickel plating its even better, To improve it some more higher antimony content lead with plating, is the ultimate you can get with lead shot.

The plating besides stooping fusing pairing  , it reduced deformity distortion and picking up flats. It all helps and improves the %.

I dont know enough about .410 to comment much further, but i know that short wad column on 2.5 inch will help pattern % but at a reduced payload, so the advantage gained in shorter column length is somewhat negated.

I feel your compromised with lead, and if i were going to use lead in a .410 i would go small shot 71/2 and smaller  .

My experience directly with .410 is very limited and has been just two guns in my life both full choked . And with these full chokes the bigger shot size 4s gave better as in more usable patterns, to use 6s even in 3 inch i felt results with lead would be better with a more open bore say 3/4 or 1/2. But all individual guns/ barrels can behave differently. Have you ever compared your upper to your lower barrel with same choke tube / load and did you notice any difference.

Hard non tox like TSS HW15 etc or even steel will give improved % and in the first two mentioned more FT/ LBs per pellet.

Interesting things .410s. I am re kindling my passion for pigeon shooting with the .410. Its the only practical option given the price of ammo / components these days. and a 3/8 oz of steel 2.8mm £40 + Vat for 28KGS will load a lot of 3/8 oz steels . And @£1 a piece to my hawking mate its woth me bothering to go again. . 410 is the way ahead with the 21 gram 20ga in a close second. the 28s powder charge puts it in an uncomfortable middle ground where it is not as good as 20ga, but not as economical as .410.

SP3 the small powder charge TPS wad and 3/8 of cheap steel. .410 for me looks very tempting despite the few yards lost, over decoys should be tolerable i would have thought.

Small shot charges in TSS .410 , i think would be the way to go for longer game bird shooting or waterfowl. Its making the .410 very useful and making bigger bored loads of TSS look nunessasary in many situations.

 

 

34 minutes ago, Walker570 said:

Need to try some copper with my fibre wads now.  I still believe it will be classed as lead and as the idea is to prevent the deaths of wildfowl then ingesting it would still be not so good.

 

It is still lead, only pure copper is classed as non lead because it is.  You have missed the boat on this one though, its not eassy to find anymore first FOB and rotweil stopped selling BBs then even siarm stoped selling first the 3s then the 6s. has not been any since september. Not sure if it will come back post Coronavirus. but certainly off the radar ex works right now. Go TSS young man.

[grahamch]

4 hours ago, Scully said:

Is copper coated acceptable as non toxic? Isn't it still lead? A genuine question. I recall when it was first mooted lead were banned, I was quite upbeat when someone came up with copper coated shot, until I was informed by my RFD that it wouldn't solve anything as it's still lead. 

Very impressive patterns I must say. 

Nope still lead shot with a few microns of copper plating, more of a marketing gimic me thinks 

[sitsinhedges]

I would want to shoot far more than one pattern to come to a solid conclusion. 

[motty]

1 hour ago, lancer425 said:

The copper Coated lead will help stop  fusing  and will improve %, If its heavier thicker plating like the heavy nickel plating its even better, To improve it some more higher antimony content lead with plating, is the ultimate you can get with lead shot.

The plating besides stooping fusing pairing  , it reduced deformity distortion and picking up flats. It all helps and improves the %.

I dont know enough about .410 to comment much further, but i know that short wad column on 2.5 inch will help pattern % but at a reduced payload, so the advantage gained in shorter column length is somewhat negated.

I feel your compromised with lead, and if i were going to use lead in a .410 i would go small shot 71/2 and smaller  .

My experience directly with .410 is very limited and has been just two guns in my life both full choked . And with these full chokes the bigger shot size 4s gave better as in more usable patterns, to use 6s even in 3 inch i felt results with lead would be better with a more open bore say 3/4 or 1/2. But all individual guns/ barrels can behave differently. Have you ever compared your upper to your lower barrel with same choke tube / load and did you notice any difference.

Hard non tox like TSS HW15 etc or even steel will give improved % and in the first two mentioned more FT/ LBs per pellet.

Interesting things .410s. I am re kindling my passion for pigeon shooting with the .410. Its the only practical option given the price of ammo / components these days. and a 3/8 oz of steel 2.8mm £40 + Vat for 28KGS will load a lot of 3/8 oz steels . And @£1 a piece to my hawking mate its woth me bothering to go again. . 410 is the way ahead with the 21 gram 20ga in a close second. the 28s powder charge puts it in an uncomfortable middle ground where it is not as good as 20ga, but not as economical as .410.

SP3 the small powder charge TPS wad and 3/8 of cheap steel. .410 for me looks very tempting despite the few yards lost, over decoys should be tolerable i would have thought.

Small shot charges in TSS .410 , i think would be the way to go for longer game bird shooting or waterfowl. Its making the .410 very useful and making bigger bored loads of TSS look nunessasary in many situations.

 

 

It is still lead, only pure copper is classed as non lead because it is.  You have missed the boat on this one though, its not eassy to find anymore first FOB and rotweil stopped selling BBs then even siarm stoped selling first the 3s then the 6s. has not been any since september. Not sure if it will come back post Coronavirus. but certainly off the radar ex works right now. Go TSS young man.

I am surprised your "hawking mate" is still a mate, charging £1 a pigeon!

[lancer425]

12 minutes ago, motty said:

I am surprised your "hawking mate" is still a mate, charging £1 a pigeon!

He is happy paying that for his gosshawks he pays a few same rate. Can not remember dealers name now but he was paying same or similar money  for them now or was before this virus . People are still going to need food, and would rather feed pigeons than frozen chicks.

What they fetch lead 10p 30p a piece. Its just not practical. >410 is possibly a go reloaded . but bought ammo with no scrap lead dropped shot or some other big cash reducer. Its expensive without your able to sell into a hawker with steel shot birds.

Whats 12 bore now last i got was the LA jockers £150 a 100 be more than that mow.   If i ever were to go back to serrious pigeon shooting again"doubt i will bother" i will go .410 and Steel. as i said with SP3 powder. the s7 at £40 = vat for 28kilo is not beatable not even scrap lead and drop shot will beat that when heating it up is taken into account. Unless you got free lead your not going to get near that.  Look at powder CSB5s the cheapes. but 20+ grains a 12ga, .410 SP3 more money but 10/ 13 grains and super good meetering it being ball powder. Yep .410 i think its the future. Your opinion may vary.

Edited May 2, 2020 by lancer425

[motty]

42 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

He is happy paying that for his gosshawks he pays a few same rate. Can not remember dealers name now but he was paying same or similar money  for them now or was before this virus . People are still going to need food, and would rather feed pigeons than frozen chicks.

What they fetch lead 10p 30p a piece. Its just not practical. >410 is possibly a go reloaded . but bought ammo with no scrap lead dropped shot or some other big cash reducer. Its expensive without your able to sell into a hawker with steel shot birds.

Whats 12 bore now last i got was the LA jockers £150 a 100 be more than that mow.   If i ever were to go back to serrious pigeon shooting again"doubt i will bother" i will go .410 and Steel. as i said with SP3 powder. the s7 at £40 = vat for 28kilo is not beatable not even scrap lead and drop shot will beat that when heating it up is taken into account. Unless you got free lead your not going to get near that.  Look at powder CSB5s the cheapes. but 20+ grains a 12ga, .410 SP3 more money but 10/ 13 grains and super good meetering it being ball powder. Yep .410 i think its the future. Your opinion may vary.

Well, my freezers are full of steel shot pigeons. I will accept much less than £1, so if you want, you can make yourself some money! 😂

[lancer425]

27 minutes ago, motty said:

Well, my freezers are full of steel shot pigeons. I will accept much less than £1, so if you want, you can make yourself some money! 😂

Not bothered myself, i get to move all i get with no trouble, i can get 400 in my freezers. i just take them when full.

But i can get the name and location of a dealer, a chap i used to know sold thousands to back in the day. He AFAIK is still on the same routene. £1. I know few who have a hawker or few hawkers they keep going.

Another thought, if you look on facebook there is a steel shot only group with its sole point in moveing steel shot pigeons into hawkers. I looked a year or so ago, but prices were less, but still way more than what you get typicaly. I not took any to a dealler but was told 10p to 30p is all your ever going to get for them at deallers. but you probably know more accurately than me what they are worth in the normal meat trade.

 

[motty]

2 hours ago, lancer425 said:

Not bothered myself, i get to move all i get with no trouble, i can get 400 in my freezers. i just take them when full.

But i can get the name and location of a dealer, a chap i used to know sold thousands to back in the day. He AFAIK is still on the same routene. £1. I know few who have a hawker or few hawkers they keep going.

Another thought, if you look on facebook there is a steel shot only group with its sole point in moveing steel shot pigeons into hawkers. I looked a year or so ago, but prices were less, but still way more than what you get typicaly. I not took any to a dealler but was told 10p to 30p is all your ever going to get for them at deallers. but you probably know more accurately than me what they are worth in the normal meat

Pm sent.

[lancer425]

17 minutes ago, motty said:

Pm sent.

[NoBodyImportant]

Interesting,  what is the cost difference between copper coated and plain lead? 

[Walker570]

2 hours ago, NoBodyImportant said:

Interesting,  what is the cost difference between copper coated and plain lead? 

I have not found that out yet but assume it would be more expensive.  No problem if it does the job better. As said above, need to run a couple of more patterns to be certain.

Problem is I have already loaded about 300 #7 lead for the up and coming season.  A few boxes of the copper coated would be a good idea then to shoot exclusively on a day and see if they kill any better and that really is the crunch question covering the additional cost.

[lancer425]

One other aspect of .410, is to help patterns try Buffering Lead or bismuth loads. Think you would see real benefits in your performance like light and day obvious.

[Walker570]

Never thought of buffering. Yes, that would be interesting. What would I use, like ground rice or something ?

[wymberley]

21 hours ago, grahamch said:

Nope still lead shot with a few microns of copper plating, more of a marketing gimic me thinks 

 

20 hours ago, sitsinhedges said:

I would want to shoot far more than one pattern to come to a solid conclusion. 

I don't know. I'm not too sure about one but agree with the other. Occasionally on PW we hear that, "I don't care about percentages, it's pellets that kill". Fair comment,  but so too is 'percentages kill efficiently'. If you hit something with two pellets of a similar material and size then if one has a higher velocity than the other then that is the one that will do the most damage. Obvious.

If we assume that all pellets leaving the muzzle have the same velocity, then all things being equal there is but one one main reason why the shotgun does what it does - pellet distortion. Distorted pellets will not fly in a straight line and will lose velocity faster than those not so severely affected and both aspects are dependent upon the level of distortion which will affect what we know as the pattern. Obvious.

Unfortunately for us, there are other factors in play. Why for example do two identically loaded cartridges of different makes perform differently from the same barrel. However, this is of no real consequence. Pattern and energy kill. If you pattern a gun and the result is such that it conforms to the known criteria for range and density in relation to the degree of barrel choke - or as near as damnit - then in view of the fact that many and varied attempts over many decades have been made to alter those criteria and with the exception of those which have come up against the law of diminishing return have failed - that's pretty much as good as it's going to get with regards to the pellet material in use - in our case lead. What that percentage figure is telling us is that if you can achieve something close to the specified figure then that pattern reflects the minimum amout of distortion and the greatest velocity that we have a right to expect. Therefore, the acid test for the copper wash is that if it can better the existing parameters.

[sitsinhedges]

1 hour ago, Walker570 said:

Never thought of buffering. Yes, that would be interesting. What would I use, like ground rice or something ?

Be careful there. Pressures might go thru the roof.

[Walker570]

Hah!! Yes and the 410 is a prime case on pressures.

[dipper]

Might just handle 6 better than smaller shot.Might be worth trying a little less chokes and slow it down a touch.

 

 

[Walker570]

l shells I have loaded with the copper coated repeat the same patterns then I think I am going to stick with that. It could not be much better.   Adding additional material just makes loading a bigger chore.