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hodge911

Small rant (just me )

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8 minutes ago, London Best said:

My limited experience of the field trial world is that it is a group of people that take it in turns to give each other prizes.


Without even considering field trials, should you not be looking to breed dogs that are very good workers, with no faults?
 

Because at the moment I am very regularly seeing people breeding from dogs which are so so workers and have numerous faults, hard mouth, making noise (non-stop) and other things. Whilst the owners tell me over and over how fantastic they are and they have pups available and to go on their dedicated Facebook pages for a look. I surely can’t be the only person seeing this? 

It is then surely no surprise that more and more people are getting dogs that are noisy or hard mouthed, because these are the dogs they are breeding from without any thought 🤷‍♂️ 
 

The J regs as prescribed by the KC is a good (and basic enough) requirement for a good hunting/shooting dog. 
 

There are people out there who aren’t interested in trials, and they are breeding decent hunting dogs to a good standard. It’s just for everyone of them there’s a lot of others who are breeding from their family pet to “carry on the lines” and if they had a good hard look at their dog they’d be better off buying one in. 
 

 


Re issues in field trials: 


It is said to be corrupt in some areas ... I went to a trial last year to carry game so got to stand next to the judges, you basically are stood side by side with the judge watching every dog properly, not stood out of view in the gallery. 
 

Two other young lads were there doing the same, both like me had never seen a trial before. 
 

All 3 of us just before the end picked what we thought were the best 2 dogs. We both thought they were very good in every regard and hunting machines (as a spaniel should be), much better than the other competitions. 
 

The judges called a run off, and the two dogs that three complete novices could even see were a league above the rest were called to run off for 1st place. They obviously took 1st and the loser 2nd. 
 


It’s easy to sit there and say how it’s corrupt it is but when 3 novices can pick the best dogs easily how can someone then turn around and say “they only won cos of who they know!”. 
 

There is absolutely favouritism and that sort going on, same as any sport that’s down to interpretation sadly. We are starting to see judges who are knowing for this being weeded out... the trials they are judging are finding that they can’t get enough people entering to run.

There are also moves within the societies to make all judges and guns appointed a much clearer and fair process. 
 

 


 

 

I just think a trial is a good and mostly independent way to judge a dogs working ability. 
 

Many many people will say “my dog would wipe the floor with a trial dog”. When you tell them ok then, stick it in a trial, you’d easily win, they soon shut up because they know they’d be put out.


 

And I’m not just wingeing about others breeding their dogs willy nilly like a hypocrite. I myself have two bitches at my folks that did a bit of rough shooting and picked some ducks but they were never more than barely part trained because back then they were family pets and I didn’t know what I was doing, but I never bred either as I didn’t consider them to be really hard worked dogs that would stand out against others. 
 

My current dog is Very well bred and I won’t use him at stud unless he can really prove himself in the field (by at least winning a novice trial most likely). 
 


 

 

 

 

I thought the whole point of breeding was to get animals that will really enhance the true quality of the breed. Breeding animals because you can get £2,000-£3,000 a pup and you don’t care if it introduces faults for generations to come is madness. 
 

Hold your breeders to a high standard because if you don’t in years to come you’ll find it harder and harder to get decent working stuff. 

 

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I hear what you say and agree that breeding from problematic parents is wrong - only for financial gains. 
 

All I was saying is that a flashy pedigree against one that isn’t, won’t give you a great dog. 
My father in law has a ftch x ftch springer bitch and she is an absolute loon. She
will hunt a 40 acre field on her own.... 

Is it his fault - probably

Is she bred too hot - probably. 

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1 hour ago, WelshAndy said:

I hear what you say and agree that breeding from problematic parents is wrong - only for financial gains. 
 

All I was saying is that a flashy pedigree against one that isn’t, won’t give you a great dog. 
My father in law has a ftch x ftch springer bitch and she is an absolute loon. She
will hunt a 40 acre field on her own.... 

Is it his fault - probably

Is she bred too hot - probably. 


Yes completely agree mate 👍🏻 
 

Breeding is absolutely no guarantee at all! Plenty of FTCH x FTCH pups out there that won’t ever come close to being a FTCH or even win a novice. 

 

 

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Some good and interesting points made. Those of us with experience and good contacts have opportunities to see good dogs and know who we would go to for our next pup. The difficulty is that if you are a novice there is only the breeders word for it. We need to encourage more novices to seek advice from experienced dog people and support them on their journey with that first dog.

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1 hour ago, Dave at kelton said:

Some good and interesting points made. Those of us with experience and good contacts have opportunities to see good dogs and know who we would go to for our next pup. The difficulty is that if you are a novice there is only the breeders word for it. We need to encourage more novices to seek advice from experienced dog people and support them on their journey with that first dog.

 

Absolutely mate ... just out of interest Dave have you found any truth in the saying "Don't get a dog with too much Red, it'll be too hot for a novice to handle". 

I have found my heavily FT bred springer very calm and easy in the house, but he's been in from day 1 and taught to switch off and ignored at times, often now takes himself off to have a nap on his own. 

 

We have all seen some dogs who are total live wires ... not always from FT stock either. My old one at my mums which was mostly a pet was a hot head, the whining did my head in and I bought her from a "shooting dog to shooting dog" type breeding. Has a hard mouth and squeeked/whined like hell, never really able to switch off. A right pain to have around at times but still a nice little loving dog (haven't met a spaniel that isn't). 

 

 

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11 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

I think it’s about tipping the odds, that’s just my personal view. 

I agree with this. Obviously there's no guarantee that a pup coming off a top notch lineage will turn out better than one that comes from a less exalted pedigree, but overall the odds are in favour of it. But the best thing - regardless of what's in the pedigree book -  is a) to see at least one parent working, and b) even better  - see an older half-brother or sister of the pup working as well. Some dogs just seem to throw good pups, even when their pedigree isn't great -and  vice versa, so if a brother or sister is already working well the odds are even more in your favour. 

That said, unless you have aspirations to trial the dog or have shed-loads of work for it, it probably doesn't make much difference. In fact, a dog that's a bit less driven might make a better all around companion.

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

 

Absolutely mate ... just out of interest Dave have you found any truth in the saying "Don't get a dog with too much Red, it'll be too hot for a novice to handle". 

I have found my heavily FT bred springer very calm and easy in the house, but he's been in from day 1 and taught to switch off and ignored at times, often now takes himself off to have a nap on his own. 

 

We have all seen some dogs who are total live wires ... not always from FT stock either. My old one at my mums which was mostly a pet was a hot head, the whining did my head in and I bought her from a "shooting dog to shooting dog" type breeding. Has a hard mouth and squeeked/whined like hell, never really able to switch off. A right pain to have around at times but still a nice little loving dog (haven't met a spaniel that isn't). 

 

 

I have had yellow labs in all shades for 30 years and springers before that. I have not found that the darker yellow is any hotter than any  other. I have a champagne dog at present that is red hot but he has just been taught to relax so we can turn the drive on and of and that’s the trick. Frankly a lot of the FT dogs are being bred too hot for novices whether yellow black or red. When choosing I want to see some red in the pedigree but not to much. I have mates who don’t trial but pick up with me who have great dark red dogs and who I would happily take pups from as they have calm temperaments. My preference is darker yellow as it suits me better for wildfowling so my latest 11 week old is just that but I was equally prepared to take a light yellow from the litter. When asked why only yellow my stock answer is “ Gentlemen prefer blondes,” unless I am in danger of offending a particularly attractive brunette gun.😂

B8729272-A4CD-402D-9C47-1D69DD4D0989.jpeg

Edited by Dave at kelton
Correct ommission

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Posted (edited)
On 22/06/2020 at 09:38, London Best said:

My limited experience of the field trial world is that it is a group of people that take it in turns to give each other prizes.

..and you are spot on there.  I had a friend who had a superb working GSP, it would wipe the eye of any dog I knew including my lab Muffin and he was good. He went a a couple of trials and said it was so closed shop he walked away and never went back.

Edited by Walker570

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@Walker570 The purpose of a HPR hunting in a field trial is to entertain the judges not find game 🤣. I’ve had some funny experiences when other dogs have been lost out of view for a period and the judges eulogise that “he covered the ground beautifully” etc. As a gun that is not much good to me to find birds half a mile away and missing the Moor directly ahead.

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In all seriousness I know quite a few A panel judges and they are all very good and knowledgeable people. We are blinded by our own dog’s brilliance to spot its flaws. One A panel judge told me he would rather hunt over my dog any day than his own as his covered so much ground it was almost impossible to use whilst mine was ruthlessly methodical and solid. Whilst another told me my dog was the most natural HPR for retrieving she’d seen in her 50 odd years. I think he’s great, but would it win a FT? Not a chance, it has so many other small faults that it would no doubt be beaten by much better dogs on the day. For me he’s great and I would feel cheated but in all honesty the best dog on the day wins.

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You might have a dog that’s an outstanding retriever that will wipe any dogs eye, but it’s not solely a retrieving competition. 
 

LOk at the J regs, they tell you what’s required. It’s the dog does can do it all, to a high standard. 
 

My dog marks better than almost any spaniel I have seen and is a hell of a retriever at times... last season he took a line on a runner going through 40-50 yards of wall to wall bramble, fighting through it he returned with the bird in his mouth still alive, he was so soft mouthed 😮 ... the two field trial lads I was with were amazed what a retrieve it was!! 
 

Do I think he would have won a trial at that point? Absolutely not! His hunting wasn’t all that... he wouldn’t have gone into that bramble if he hadn’t seen bird drop into it and have a strong scent trail to follow.

 

However I did pick up on his weaknesses and have been working on improving them... his hunting is getting a lot better. 
 

Will try and run him in a novice this year :) let’s see how he goes. 

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11 hours ago, Walker570 said:

..and you are spot on there.  I had a friend who had a superb working GSP, it would wipe the eye of any dog I knew including my lab Muffin and he was good. He went a a couple of trials and said it was so closed shop he walked away and never went back.

The trouble with trials is that the person who is judging next month is competing this month, and vice versa in a comparatively small circle. So the judge on the day often will not notice (turns a blind eye to) the competitors small faults, knowing that competitor will be judging him in a future trial.

Once someone becomes a judge they should not be allowed to compete again.

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1 hour ago, London Best said:

The trouble with trials is that the person who is judging next month is competing this month, and vice versa in a comparatively small circle. So the judge on the day often will not notice (turns a blind eye to) the competitors small faults, knowing that competitor will be judging him in a future trial.

Once someone becomes a judge they should not be allowed to compete again.


People become a judge through their love of the sport ... if you told them judges couldn’t compete again, you wouldn’t have any judges. 

 

There are also issues with judges having enough experience. Field triallers are currently pushing to ensure that judges can’t be judging trials unless they have competed within a certain time frame so they are still relevant and up to date. 
 

 

I think you also have to consider that there are a LOT of people who think their dog is fantastic, the apple of their eye, they run in a trial and have a half decent run, dog doesn’t really do much wrong... then when they don’t win they shout about it being fixed and how their dog should be the winner etc. 
 

As I’ve said, there are huge numbers of people with dogs who claim “my dog would wipe the floor with a FT dog” yet when asked to run in a trial aren’t so vocal 🤷‍♂️

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you dont have to pay anything to end up with a good dog i got my lab sky when she was 14 months full pedigree for free she was advertised for free in a local paper she had a very deep bark and it scared the couple's daughter's kids  sky had only ever heard gas guns she had no gun training or any training  i never trained her to do anything  she was just a natural at retrieving rabbits geese Pigeon etc  even when i had the rifle out she would stop beside me when i put the safety off  i had her till she was 14 1/2 years  old and still wish she was still here  

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3 hours ago, London Best said:

The trouble with trials is that the person who is judging next month is competing this month, and vice versa in a comparatively small circle. So the judge on the day often will not notice (turns a blind eye to) the competitors small faults, knowing that competitor will be judging him in a future trial.

Once someone becomes a judge they should not be allowed to compete again.

As my friend said...Closed Shop.

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1 hour ago, Walker570 said:

As my friend said...Closed Shop.

 


Come on now, If your friend had won he’d be saying how brilliant trials are and how it proves how great his dog was 😂🤣 

What did he expect? To go to his first ever trial and beat the top handlers? 
 

It is a sport where a complete novice can buy a dog, train it up to standard, win a novice and the next week you could be running in trials against the top men in the world. 
 

It’s the equivalent of starting the football season at your local village 5 a side, winning 1 game and playing against Manchester United the week after 😂

 

Those professionals don’t do it for a joke or w day out like some novices seem to do. I’ve seen plenty people will put in for a run ‘for a dog out’ or too enjoy the experience’... a good trialler wont enter his dog until he knows it’s ready. 
 

It’s their job and entire life, their dogs are out being shot over 3-4 days a week on land that has a density of game that most can only dream of. 

It’s easy to turn up and say how they’re all cheating and it’s all fixed, when your losing, but say how brilliant it is when you win. 
 

There will always be favouritism in the sport, one judge prefers one type of work or style over another. Some judges favouritism will be intentional (and a bit cheeky) and others unconscious. 
 

However the vast majority are simply people who enjoy good dog work and are in it for good reason. 

If it’s as fixed as you say ... how come there are constantly new handlers coming in year after year with no connection to the apparent big names that are winning trials? 
 

I have made lots of friends from going to events and dog training, plenty of them new to the sport like myself with no big connections, and yet many of them are succeeding. 
 

A woman I know down in Pembrokeshire bought her first ever dog, let alone her first gundog ... a cocker... trained it to a good good standard, ran it and has made it up to a FTCH in just a few years. 
 

Was it Richard Biggs that won the championship in only his second year of trialling ever? 
 

If it’s so fixed how can these people who were complete no names walk in with their home trained dogs and win these trials? 
 

I’m not naive enough to think there’s no cheating or favouritism going on... but if you only look at the select few bad apples and generalise that this is representative of the entire sport then all you do is miss out on the opportunity. 
 

 

Just like you can’t keep a good man down... a good dog will rise to the top. 

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Nah. He knew what he was dealing with and went just to sus out the situation and initially was not going to take part, however he did apply for a place numerous times but never got acknowledged.  He was a smart cookie and knew full well what he was dealing with.

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10 hours ago, London Best said:

The trouble with trials is that the person who is judging next month is competing this month, and vice versa in a comparatively small circle. So the judge on the day often will not notice (turns a blind eye to) the competitors small faults, knowing that competitor will be judging him in a future trial.

Once someone becomes a judge they should not be allowed to compete again.

My friend who is an A Panel judge doesn’t compete for that very reason....

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45 minutes ago, WalkedUp said:

My friend who is an A Panel judge doesn’t compete for that very reason....

He doesn’t compete because he doesn’t want people to accuse him of favouritism? 
 

4 hours ago, Walker570 said:

Nah. He knew what he was dealing with and went just to sus out the situation and initially was not going to take part, however he did apply for a place numerous times but never got acknowledged.  He was a smart cookie and knew full well what he was dealing with.


He applied for a place but never got acknowledged? Do you mean he entered but didn’t even get a run? 
 

So your mate has declared that every single field trial out there is bent, when he’s never even run in one? Because he didn’t get a draw from 1 certain club/ trial? 🤷‍♂️

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I have always had working dog breeds from a nipper training sheep dogs in grandads shadow  the same dogs flushed pheasant and retrieved however would never walk with you and looked upon the shot gun as a thunderstorm / beating stick  with fear     has springer cocker cross a blistering dog worked to exhaustion then labs which leads me on to trials as hadn't handled retriever's went for a look at a trials session to understand what its all about and came away disgruntled as all dogs tail down afraid to move and came straight back fast       I train my dogs to take direction on the way back as well     suppose / ice  /  electric fence / barbed wire / send it 10 yrds along to a gate / style /  keep the dog safe /        before trained my first black lab up from keepers stock   ( trials are  a different world )  she   put so many lost /runners in the bag after the trial boys  did their best       one even told me my dog was out of control when she took off and came back minutes later with a dead in the air runner  they couldn't find      a working dog you put in the right place using the wind  and let it work  (ie shut up its nose is on scent )   a trial dog  is guide by numbers out of view of the handler a shivering wreck awaiting a whooping   I even heard one handler say go back 2 ft rather than use the wind         working dog are  still the right money        an accident / designer mongrel  is stupid money         a pup you can nurture to your way of working without knowing its being trained  a gift      a yearling you have to un do bad manners unruly behaviour disobedience      sadly like military training break and rebuild to the way you want it hard on the dog and you  for a few days ten minutes training at a time   I have the tee-shirt   but worth it for all parties    a year old handful a few hundred with pedigree       in training you put the consistent effort in you will be rewarded  with any animal     horse  cows  sheep  bull   dogs  goat pigs sheep chickens ducks  quail etc    ( all  and I mean farm animals are trained    )and the best stockmen are quiet  the best dogs nobody knows their name       I have watch Alsatians  sheep dogs and great Danes and jack Russel     king Charles spaniels    German pointers  English pointers   red  setters   dash hounds spinonys   work in the shooting field   each work differently however the end result is the same      a game dinner and a top day out     

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13 hours ago, Saltings said:

I have always had working dog breeds from a nipper training sheep dogs in grandads shadow  the same dogs flushed pheasant and retrieved however would never walk with you and looked upon the shot gun as a thunderstorm / beating stick  with fear     has springer cocker cross a blistering dog worked to exhaustion then labs which leads me on to trials as hadn't handled retriever's went for a look at a trials session to understand what its all about and came away disgruntled as all dogs tail down afraid to move and came straight back fast       I train my dogs to take direction on the way back as well     suppose / ice  /  electric fence / barbed wire / send it 10 yrds along to a gate / style /  keep the dog safe /        before trained my first black lab up from keepers stock   ( trials are  a different world )  she   put so many lost /runners in the bag after the trial boys  did their best       one even told me my dog was out of control when she took off and came back minutes later with a dead in the air runner  they couldn't find      a working dog you put in the right place using the wind  and let it work  (ie shut up its nose is on scent )   a trial dog  is guide by numbers out of view of the handler a shivering wreck awaiting a whooping   I even heard one handler say go back 2 ft rather than use the wind         working dog are  still the right money        an accident / designer mongrel  is stupid money         a pup you can nurture to your way of working without knowing its being trained  a gift      a yearling you have to un do bad manners unruly behaviour disobedience      sadly like military training break and rebuild to the way you want it hard on the dog and you  for a few days ten minutes training at a time   I have the tee-shirt   but worth it for all parties    a year old handful a few hundred with pedigree       in training you put the consistent effort in you will be rewarded  with any animal     horse  cows  sheep  bull   dogs  goat pigs sheep chickens ducks  quail etc    ( all  and I mean farm animals are trained    )and the best stockmen are quiet  the best dogs nobody knows their name       I have watch Alsatians  sheep dogs and great Danes and jack Russel     king Charles spaniels    German pointers  English pointers   red  setters   dash hounds spinonys   work in the shooting field   each work differently however the end result is the same      a game dinner and a top day out     

Your point on using the wind is well made.Any good experienced dog will do just that if you shut up and let it. I notice it particularly in one of my labs just now. Send him back on a line and when he gets to the hunt area he will move off the line to get the wind in his face. Undoubtedly that would be a fail in trialling terms but it’s just what I want from a picking up dog. Half the battle is knowing when to shut up and let your dog do its job and the dog to have confidence to work without constant guidance.

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1 minute ago, Dave at kelton said:

Your point on using the wind is well made.Any good experienced dog will do just that if you shut up and let it. I notice it particularly in one of my labs just now. Send him back on a line and when he gets to the hunt area he will move off the line to get the wind in his face. Undoubtedly that would be a fail in trialling terms but it’s just what I want from a picking up dog. Half the battle is knowing when to shut up and let your dog do its job and the dog to have confidence to work without constant guidance.

Excuse my ignorance but why would a dog fail for doing this in a trail?

I do training sessions with my labs after dark to they hear the thud of the dummy and learn where that is. 
As a wildfowler one needs a dog to be able to think for itself. 

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57 minutes ago, WelshAndy said:

Excuse my ignorance but why would a dog fail for doing this in a trail?

I do training sessions with my labs after dark to they hear the thud of the dummy and learn where that is. 
As a wildfowler one needs a dog to be able to think for itself. 


They wouldn’t!

... again it’s just more talk about how a “trial dog” can’t think for itself and has to be handled onto a retrieve 

Ive got the J regs in my hand as I type. 
 

Retrievers - credit points - just two of them include ‘nose’ and ‘natural game finding ability’ ... so a dog that moved off the line to use its nose, in order to naturally find game is showing exactly what you want. 
 

A dog that is sent, find and picks the game with absolutely no whistle and no handling will ALWAYS score higher than a hand that has to be stopped and handled over and over. 
 

 

Also in the J regs it says: 

Major Faults - noisy or inappropriate handling. 
 

 

 

So not only is it not true that the dog would be put out or penalised for going off the line and using the wind to naturally find the game ... it’s in fact the complete opposite. Over-handling the dog is considered a major and eliminating fault! 

 

This just proves the example of people who don’t run in trials making claims about how trials are run or how trial dogs are different from shooting dogs, when in fact it’s just complete nonsense.

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15 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:


They wouldn’t!

... again it’s just more talk about how a “trial dog” can’t think for itself and has to be handled onto a retrieve 

Ive got the J regs in my hand as I type. 
 

Retrievers - credit points - just two of them include ‘nose’ and ‘natural game finding ability’ ... so a dog that moved off the line to use its nose, in order to naturally find game is showing exactly what you want. 
 

A dog that is sent, find and picks the game with absolutely no whistle and no handling will ALWAYS score higher than a hand that has to be stopped and handled over and over. 
 

 

Also in the J regs it says: 

Major Faults - noisy or inappropriate handling. 
 

 

 

So not only is it not true that the dog would be put out or penalised for going off the line and using the wind to naturally find the game ... it’s in fact the complete opposite. Over-handling the dog is considered a major and eliminating fault! 

 

This just proves the example of people who don’t run in trials making claims about how trials are run or how trial dogs are different from shooting dogs, when in fact it’s just complete nonsense.

Thank you for clearing that up 👍🏻

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2 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:


They wouldn’t!

... again it’s just more talk about how a “trial dog” can’t think for itself and has to be handled onto a retrieve 

Ive got the J regs in my hand as I type. 
 

Retrievers - credit points - just two of them include ‘nose’ and ‘natural game finding ability’ ... so a dog that moved off the line to use its nose, in order to naturally find game is showing exactly what you want. 
 

A dog that is sent, find and picks the game with absolutely no whistle and no handling will ALWAYS score higher than a hand that has to be stopped and handled over and over. 
 

 

Also in the J regs it says: 

Major Faults - noisy or inappropriate handling. 
 

 

 

So not only is it not true that the dog would be put out or penalised for going off the line and using the wind to naturally find the game ... it’s in fact the complete opposite. Over-handling the dog is considered a major and eliminating fault! 

 

This just proves the example of people who don’t run in trials making claims about how trials are run or how trial dogs are different from shooting dogs, when in fact it’s just complete nonsense.

Thank you I have clearly been misinformed having been told the dog had to take the direct line it was set on to the fall.

On another point why do I see a number of triallers who will keep their trial dogs back from sweeping and seem to have a separate team for this purpose. When using their trialling dogs they want to stand where they can send an individual for a direct fall that they or the dog has marked. I am not trying to be provocative but be educated because, as I have said before I do not trial as I have neither time, money nor, am I prepared to take the stress.

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