Eureka

[steve s×s]

So does everyone believe that waterfowl (ducks) and all game birds + waders ect do not know the difference between lead and other small items of grit ( weight, texture, taste) not only this but food, grains, insect eggs, oil seed rape very shot like, This is just not possible, please someone tell me (show me) if I am wrong, thanks 

[scarecrow243]

lead shot sinks deep into silt ie mud flats  birds do not dig deep enough to pick the pellets up  so all you hear is total nonsence

[steve s×s]

1 hour ago, scarecrow243 said:

lead shot sinks deep into silt ie mud flats  birds do not dig deep enough to pick the pellets up  so all you hear is total nonsence

Thank christ for that, so why o why are we even going through with this fiasco, if a numty like me has worked it out what the hell is going on, can't someone with half a brain do a simple experiment with say bismuth shot put in a grit tray or in wheat or barely, flaming do something to beat these tree huggers

[scarecrow243]

they fed mallard ducks with corn and lead shot to see if the outcome was fatal is was not this was years ago i wish i could find the info to show these so called bird savers ps i am sure it was something to do with them the lead testing on the ducks

[steve s×s]

Just MHO but I think we are being eroded from within 

[stuartyboy]

Problem is that lead has a bad image with the public, rightly or wrongly. As conservationalists first, shooters second, we have to be seen as acting in the best interests of the countryside and to an extent, our quarry. 

While lead has been widely accepted to be toxic, it’s going to be hard to argue to the non shooting public that it’s use by shooters is acceptable, especially when there are other alternatives. 

The only way to fight the restricted use of lead is to prove it’s safe beyond doubt and get that message across nationwide. Which isn’t going to happen.

[clangerman]

who needs tree huggers our OWN organisations done a U turn and sold us out on lead let’s have the blame where it belongs 

[steve s×s]

Lead apart, I think far worse is nasty plastic, not that long ago cartridges were completely degradable and perfectly usable in all calibres, would this not be the way to go (ho this would be extremely expensive £££) no it means cartridge makers would have to adjust, the continental ones would simply not do it I know this as they are not accountable to GB, 

[scotslad]

Lead can be and IS ingested by wildfowl. 

That is pretty much fact not a lot of point in even denying that.

 

How often in UK context it's an issue I don't know.

I done my dissertation n it 20+ yes ago, even then plenty of studies showing they can ingest it and it becomes stuck in the buzzard as won't erode the way normal grit or seeds would.

From memory I'm sure some big studies in OZ with magpie geese? ( Memory a bit fuzzy with being pickled at uni) and they were found to be almost actively selecting shot as the shot/pellet was the same size as there staple diet.

 

I would be amazed if a wader was ever found with lead ingested and the same for any other game bird.

This complete surrender by basc with absolutely no evidence or scientific reason for it s a complete disgrace and handled even worse.

I was a strong supporter of basc for a very long time ( 30 odd years) but last 5 or 10 years gave them benefit of doubt over a number of very dubious decisions.

But I'll never ever be a member again completely lost the plot and couldnae organise a party in a brewery

[Scully]

13 minutes ago, scotslad said:

Lead can be and IS ingested by wildfowl. 

That is pretty much fact not a lot of point in even denying that.

 

How often in UK context it's an issue I don't know.

I done my dissertation n it 20+ yes ago, even then plenty of studies showing they can ingest it and it becomes stuck in the buzzard as won't erode the way normal grit or seeds would.

From memory I'm sure some big studies in OZ with magpie geese? ( Memory a bit fuzzy with being pickled at uni) and they were found to be almost actively selecting shot as the shot/pellet was the same size as there staple diet.

 

I would be amazed if a wader was ever found with lead ingested and the same for any other game bird.

This complete surrender by basc with absolutely no evidence or scientific reason for it s a complete disgrace and handled even worse.

I was a strong supporter of basc for a very long time ( 30 odd years) but last 5 or 10 years gave them benefit of doubt over a number of very dubious decisions.

But I'll never ever be a member again completely lost the plot and couldnae organise a party in a brewery

Did your dissertation include the ‘study’ which included the forced feeding of lead shot directly into the gizzard of Mallard? 

[steve s×s]

If these birds are so dum  as to what they pick up in there beaks  how do they differentuate between food or grit And all other forms of detritus and ****, come on now help me out here this is our pastime going down the pan. 

[London Best]

28 minutes ago, steve s×s said:

If these birds are so dum  as to what they pick up in there beaks  how do they differentuate between food or grit And all other forms of detritus and ****, come on now help me out here this is our pastime going down the pan. 

The **** to which you refer is what duck feed on when on the water, before they filter the more lumpy bits from the **** through the sides of their bills.

ps dum is spelled dumb.

[steve s×s]

4 minutes ago, London Best said:

The **** to which you refer is what duck feed on when on the water, before they filter the more lumpy bits from the **** through the sides of their bills.

ps dum is spelled dumb.

Told you I was a numty🤪

[London Best]

Only joking with you, Steve.

Next time you shoot a duck, have a look inside it’s bill at the **** filtration system.
If they pick up shot with the grit and whatever they are eating from the mud when they swallow it the grit and shot stays in the gizzard, designed to grind food down to start the digestion process. The grit is supposed to break down eventually and pass through but apparently the shot doesn’t do this and slowly poisons the duck.

I think that’s basically right? If not someone will be along with possibly a more correct version.

 

[steve s×s]

London Best, your a hive of information, no disrespect but iam 60 something been shooting _ fishing ect from infant school and do know a little of what's going on but still great full for your interest 😊

[matone]

It`s not about the birds ,it`s about us! They want rid of us and will pursue every ruse that they can to achieve that end.

[Norfolk wildfowler]

9 hours ago, steve s×s said:

So does everyone believe that waterfowl (ducks) and all game birds + waders ect do not know the difference between lead and other small items of grit ( weight, texture, taste) not only this but food, grains, insect eggs, oil seed rape very shot like, This is just not possible, please someone tell me (show me) if I am wrong, thanks 

I can tell you now waterfowl cannot tell the difference between lead and grit. If you do not belive it get a few mallard, place a mixed dish of grit and corn and give it a few weeks. By then most of the mallard will be dead, from lead poisoning. Could you tell the difference between lead by touch in the dark when most wild duck feed ?

6 hours ago, steve s×s said:

Thank christ for that, so why o why are we even going through with this fiasco, if a numty like me has worked it out what the hell is going on, can't someone with half a brain do a simple experiment with say bismuth shot put in a grit tray or in wheat or barely, flaming do something to beat these tree huggers

Its been done  many times.

 

Edited June 28, 2020 by Norfolk wildfowler

[Norfolk wildfowler]

8 hours ago, scarecrow243 said:

lead shot sinks deep into silt ie mud flats  birds do not dig deep enough to pick the pellets up  so all you hear is total nonsence

But what happens to the lead shot that falls on firm surfaces on for example gravel pits. I have handled dozens of tufted duck and pochard while duck ringing that have been suffering from  lead poisoning.

 

[Norfolk wildfowler]

2 hours ago, Scully said:

Did your dissertation include the ‘study’ which included the forced feeding of lead shot directly into the gizzard of Mallard? 

Most of the studies  were done with the mallard picking the lead from a separate dish of water and with grit available. To my knowledge only one test was done force feeding the duck and has been disregarded as unsafe data. Lead poisoning is far more common than most fowlers realise. There is no reason to even think of shooting led at waterfowl these days. Get a gun that will handle steel and there will no problem. Steel works very well at waterfowl, pheasants and pigeons. I have shot thousands of pigeon with steel and found my killing average is better with steel than lead. And there  have been fiber wad steel cartridges  available for years.

2 hours ago, steve s×s said:

If these birds are so dum  as to what they pick up in there beaks  how do they differentuate between food or grit And all other forms of detritus and ****, come on now help me out here this is our pastime going down the pan. 

No use steel or bismuth.

 

[Norfolk wildfowler]

6 hours ago, steve s×s said:

Thank christ for that, so why o why are we even going through with this fiasco, if a numty like me has worked it out what the hell is going on, can't someone with half a brain do a simple experiment with say bismuth shot put in a grit tray or in wheat or barely, flaming do something to beat these tree huggers

Google Waterfowl poisoning and you will find plenty of info. But here is a sample https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13280-019-01159-0

[Scully]

10 hours ago, Norfolk wildfowler said:

Most of the studies  were done with the mallard picking the lead from a separate dish of water and with grit available. To my knowledge only one test was done force feeding the duck and has been disregarded as unsafe data. Lead poisoning is far more common than most fowlers realise. There is no reason to even think of shooting led at waterfowl these days. Get a gun that will handle steel and there will no problem. Steel works very well at waterfowl, pheasants and pigeons. I have shot thousands of pigeon with steel and found my killing average is better with steel than lead. And there  have been fiber wad steel cartridges  available for years.

 

 

It may be regarded as ‘unsafe data’ but it didn’t stop BASC from linking to it in this very forum , as part of evidence for the lethality of ingested lead shot on wildfowl during the lead shot debate when shifty Swifty chaired the LAG. 
I have no problems with steel shot and all my guns are capable of using it, proved for it or not. 
Would your link refer to Deborah Pain of the Wildfowl and Wetlands Trust by any chance? So that’ll be a totally unbiased and agenda free approach then won’t it? 

Edited June 29, 2020 by Scully

[steve s×s]

12 minutes ago, Scully said:

It may be regarded as ‘unsafe data’ but it didn’t stop BASC from linking to it in this very forum , as part of evidence for the lethality of ingested lead shot on wildfowl during the lead shot debate when shifty Swifty chaired the LAG. 
I have no problems with steel shot and all my guns are capable of using it, proved for it or not. 
Would your link refer to Deborah Pain of the Wildfowl and Wetlands Trust by any chance? So that’ll be a totally unbiased and agenda free approach then won’t it? 

Nice shot Scully, just below the water line 👍

[cardigun]

We used to have a farm pond, about 1/2 an acre, on which we kept a pinioned pair of all of the European species. These were fed in the shallows with corn, which they dabbled for .The pond had been shot over for years before we started using it , and a lot of lead shot must have fallen into it, because every year we lost some of the diving ducks.  Tufted ducks mostly, as they could get down to the silt layers where the old lead shot lay.  The first few times we found them dead, we took them to Slimbridge  and had the put over an "X ray" device, which showed the lead in their Gizzards.  The dabbling ducks didn't have the ability to reach the deeper lead deposits.

[scarecrow243]

put it this way go to a tidal river put steel shot bismuth shot lead shot in 1lb  piles  on the silt  come back after the tide goes out the lead shot will sink deeper than the other shot  its all about money buy dearer cartridges new guns etc etc etc

[lancer425]

Two decades and counting. and the lead shot waterfowl debate still rages. It has to be a record. Never has so much fuss been made over something so trivial as a shot media. just move on 1/3 of my life watching such debate is growing old.