Lead free shotgun cartridges

[rbrowning2]

8 hours ago, jords said:

The info here is quite comforting.. so a massive Thankyou to you all that have taken your time to reply to me.. I’ll be abit more specific.. I have been looking at a used AYA no.2 side by side.. I can pick up a good one for around £550-£1100 depending on the year and condition.. I’ve looked at others and got my heart set on an AYA. I’ve just heard so much about this steel shot & the now known “scaremongering” behind it.. as I mentioned I am relatively new to to the side by side world.. I have always wanted one. But got used to a U/O first For a  while which carries the nitro proof stamp & clearly states on the barrels “steel shot”.. again there is so much information out there regarding this awesome sport.. so it’s quite hard to establish the ******** & the facts with so many opinions voiced on the internet. With the kind of AYA in my budget range I just presumed it would be too old to have been catered for the nitro proofing of steel shot.. it p****** me off abit more than it should, which is why I had to ask on here.. just sat there & thought to myself “perfect timing” .. I want a side by side & now will be rendered obsolete! GREAAAT!!! You get my point I’m sure.. 

the wealth of knowledge on here is fantastic so a massive Thankyou to you all for your inputs! Really put me in the picture! I will continue to take it all on board & hopefully lead shot won’t be banned.. (for at least a decade anyway) I’ve also read from outraged shooters that the ballistic properties of steel is still an on going problem in terms of achieving a clean kill & also a shortage of shot range compared to lead shot.. 

 

im all ears if anybody wishes to correct what I have read if it’s wrong! 
 

thanks again guys 

 

jords 

Buy it and enjoy it, it is only a voluntary ban for live quarry shooting only, and if wild justice get their way game shooting and general licence shooting as we know it could be finished before any legal ban on lead shot.

 

 

[Dave at kelton]

9 hours ago, jords said:

The info here is quite comforting.. so a massive Thankyou to you all that have taken your time to reply to me.. I’ll be abit more specific.. I have been looking at a used AYA no.2 side by side.. I can pick up a good one for around £550-£1100 depending on the year and condition.. I’ve looked at others and got my heart set on an AYA. I’ve just heard so much about this steel shot & the now known “scaremongering” behind it.. as I mentioned I am relatively new to to the side by side world.. I have always wanted one. But got used to a U/O first For a  while which carries the nitro proof stamp & clearly states on the barrels “steel shot”.. again there is so much information out there regarding this awesome sport.. so it’s quite hard to establish the ******** & the facts with so many opinions voiced on the internet. With the kind of AYA in my budget range I just presumed it would be too old to have been catered for the nitro proofing of steel shot.. it p****** me off abit more than it should, which is why I had to ask on here.. just sat there & thought to myself “perfect timing” .. I want a side by side & now will be rendered obsolete! GREAAAT!!! You get my point I’m sure.. 

the wealth of knowledge on here is fantastic so a massive Thankyou to you all for your inputs! Really put me in the picture! I will continue to take it all on board & hopefully lead shot won’t be banned.. (for at least a decade anyway) I’ve also read from outraged shooters that the ballistic properties of steel is still an on going problem in terms of achieving a clean kill & also a shortage of shot range compared to lead shot.. 

 

im all ears if anybody wishes to correct what I have read if it’s wrong! 
 

thanks again guys 

 

jords 

Good Luck and  No 2’s can be picked up at the bottom of the price range at auction So it is worth keeping an eye on Holts, Southams, Mitchell’s etc.

[jords]

Very much appreciated thanks gents! 
 

jords 

[dodgy dave]

20 hours ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

Hello, I was on TWA in South Oxfordshire, no mini diggers back then, 🙄

 

 

all good work for the working man to do

[London Best]

Jords, be assured an AYA no.2 will be Spanish nitro proved for 70 mm cartridges and is therefore perfectly suitable and safe to shoot with Standard Steel cartridges.

And a very nice gun as well!

[enfieldspares]

Any owner of an AyA is in good company. Nicholas Soames uses a pair of them having replaced the pair of William Evans guns he was given as a wedding present.

[Terry2016]

15 hours ago, Cannon said:

The GB steel cartridges I have come with two warnings on the box. The first is about the increased chance of ricochets, and the second states that the cartridge must not be used to shoot game past 35 yards. Not exactly a suitable alternative as Terry would have us believe. There's a long way to go to reassure shooters of the suitability of lead alternatives. Maybe there should have been a consultation with the very people who use cartridges for hunting instead of committing to a 5 year transition period with absolutely no idea how it was going to pan out.

Canon, it not what i am leading you to believe it is fact. 

Firstly - steel ricochet is not a concern... lead will also ricochet. so an unsafe shot is an unsafe shot. 

I have been shooting with steel for many years. as do many wildfowlers on this forum and trust me it kills adequately and at range. 

I think the purpose of the transition is to give the shooters who use these cartridges time to find ammunition that suits and for the manufacturers to develop further ammunition. 

It s better than an immediate ban isn't it... what would we all do then...

[Old farrier]

Just now, Terry2016 said:

Canon, it not what i am leading you to believe it is fact. 

Firstly - steel ricochet is not a concern... lead will also ricochet. so an unsafe shot is an unsafe shot. 

I have been shooting with steel for many years. as do many wildfowlers on this forum and trust me it kills adequately and at range. 

I think the purpose of the transition is to give the shooters who use these cartridges time to find ammunition that suits and for the manufacturers to develop further ammunition. 

It s better than an immediate ban isn't it... what would we all do then...

And many Wildfowlers use heavier guns and aftermarket External chokes mostly with plastic wads/shotcups 

 

 

[Terry2016]

15 hours ago, jords said:

The info here is quite comforting.. so a massive Thankyou to you all that have taken your time to reply to me.. I’ll be abit more specific.. I have been looking at a used AYA no.2 side by side.. I can pick up a good one for around £550-£1100 depending on the year and condition.. I’ve looked at others and got my heart set on an AYA. I’ve just heard so much about this steel shot & the now known “scaremongering” behind it.. as I mentioned I am relatively new to to the side by side world.. I have always wanted one. But got used to a U/O first For a  while which carries the nitro proof stamp & clearly states on the barrels “steel shot”.. again there is so much information out there regarding this awesome sport.. so it’s quite hard to establish the ******** & the facts with so many opinions voiced on the internet. With the kind of AYA in my budget range I just presumed it would be too old to have been catered for the nitro proofing of steel shot.. it p****** me off abit more than it should, which is why I had to ask on here.. just sat there & thought to myself “perfect timing” .. I want a side by side & now will be rendered obsolete! GREAAAT!!! You get my point I’m sure.. 

the wealth of knowledge on here is fantastic so a massive Thankyou to you all for your inputs! Really put me in the picture! I will continue to take it all on board & hopefully lead shot won’t be banned.. (for at least a decade anyway) I’ve also read from outraged shooters that the ballistic properties of steel is still an on going problem in terms of achieving a clean kill & also a shortage of shot range compared to lead shot.. 

 

im all ears if anybody wishes to correct what I have read if it’s wrong! 
 

thanks again guys 

 

jords 

Jords, 

The Aya you are looking at will be nitro proof so it will shot steel no problem, check the chamber length and chokes.

The ridiculous statement that steel does not kill goes against my grain, as a wildfowler with many friends who are wildfowlers i can say that steel kills fine!

if its good enough for geese it will be good for any other quarry, in some places like denmark they shoot deer with steel from shotguns, ok they use a larger shot like SG's but it will kill. 

Do not be put off by the scaremongering-  I use old english SxS also dated 1900.. and they do not have a problem shooting steel.

Best Wishes

Terry

Edited August 9, 2020 by Terry2016

[Terry2016]

4 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

And many Wildfowlers use heavier guns and aftermarket External chokes mostly with plastic wads/shotcups 

 

 

Heavier guns no... I know some wildflowers who use 20s and 28s...

Eternal after market chokes some... however the majority do not.

Plastic wads - now yes, however the biodegradable wad is a shotcup so is said to perform the same as plastic which is considered better than fibre. When they are available in suitable cartridge sizes for 3" and 3.5" then most would swap... Wildfowlers as a rule are very aware of plastic wads..and the issue they cause hence many clubs do litter pics.

To add the new Gambore precision steel has the new "quad seal " with shot cup and apparently its a game changer... 

https://gamebore.com/uk/cartridge/game/12g-dark-storm-precision-steel-biowad

[motty]

15 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

The info is very inconsistent. 
 

I have a 2 3/4” chamber Spanish Master Side by Side. It’s choked 1/2 and FULL. 
 

I have a slab of GB super steel 32g 3’s. 
 

Some 2 3/4” carts with size 3 shot can apparently be used through non steel proof guns but these ones for some reason count as HP steel.
 

If I had picked up the same cartridge in size 4 apparently they would have been fine. 

Another brand in the same size and weight, 32g 3’s are ok? Or not ok? 
 

It’s quite confusing, to the point I have bought a HP steel proof Browning Maxus with 3 1/2 chamber. 

 

It is always up to the individual what they deem suitable to put in their guns. I have used (and seen many others use) cartridges in a lot of guns that the "experts" say should not be used. I know no-one that has ever experienced a problem with putting HP steel through their non steèl proofed guns. I would have no issue putting 3s through any choke, provided the gun hasn't got wafer thin muzzles.

I have said several times before that I own three 10 bores. None of them have steel proof. I have put some big, fast steel loads through them all. They show no obvious signs of wear or damage.

My mate has recently put some F steel (5.5mm) through extended full chokes. No damage occurred.

[Cannon]

4 minutes ago, Terry2016 said:

Canon, it not what i am leading you to believe it is fact. 

Firstly - steel ricochet is not a concern... lead will also ricochet. so an unsafe shot is an unsafe shot. 

I have been shooting with steel for many years. as do many wildfowlers on this forum and trust me it kills adequately and at range. 

I think the purpose of the transition is to give the shooters who use these cartridges time to find ammunition that suits and for the manufacturers to develop further ammunition. 

It s better than an immediate ban isn't it... what would we all do then...

The point a lot of us are trying to make is that there seems to be absolutely no hard evidence to support the eradication of lead shot. It just seems to be made up statistics and guesswork that many are taking as gospel when it clearly isn't. Where are the carcasses of the 100,000 birds that died of lead poisoning? I've never seen or heard of one never mind 100,000. Lead is a natural element that comes from the earth, whereas steel is a synthetic man made material. Have you seen the effects that rusting steel has on trees and wood? The reason for the transition is because the shooting organisations who are supposed to represent shooters have had the wool pulled over their eyes with made up figures and wishy washy reports written by ill educated environmentalists. It's a response based purely on emotion and political point scoring.

[motty]

6 hours ago, rbrowning2 said:

Yes you can insure a shotgun against damage, the six million dollar question is would they pay out for damage caused by using a shot type that the gun was never designed for or proofed for?  

all these comments that, so and so says not a problem just use steel shot, will they pay if you gun gets damaged by steel shoot, we have been shooting lead shot through thousands of different types of shotguns over hundreds of years, the same cannot be said with steel shot and even with the, now not to be used thick non-biodegradable plastic wads, guns get damaged by steel as a quick search of the web will show.

Most of the pictures on the internet of guns damaged by steel shot are bull/fake/erroneous.

[rbrowning2]

10 minutes ago, Terry2016 said:

To add the new Gambore precision steel has the new "quad seal " with shot cup and apparently its a game changer... 

https://gamebore.com/uk/cartridge/game/12g-dark-storm-precision-steel-biowad

Building on the Quad Seal™ design, the Bio Wad™ is a new full cup wad utilising the same cutting-edge material which is 100% environmentally safe.

Environmentally safe is not necessary bio-degradable, just that it can be recycled by putting in the recycling bin.

Yet to see a statement from gamebore that explains exactly how biodegradable theses wads really are.

3 minutes ago, motty said:

Most of the pictures on the internet of guns damaged by steel shot are bull/fake/erroneous.

And you know this for a fact how?

[motty]

1 minute ago, rbrowning2 said:

Building on the Quad Seal™ design, the Bio Wad™ is a new full cup wad utilising the same cutting-edge material which is 100% environmentally safe.

Environmentally safe is not necessary bio-degradable, just that it can be recycled by putting in the recycling bin.

Yet to see a statement from gamebore that explains exactly how biodegradable theses wads really are.

And you know this for a fact how?

Post some of the pictures and let us see.

[Old farrier]

7 minutes ago, motty said:

It is always up to the individual what they deem suitable to put in their guns. I have used (and seen many others use) cartridges in a lot of guns that the "experts" say should not be used. I know no-one that has ever experienced a problem with putting HP steel through their non steèl proofed guns. I would have no issue putting 3s through any choke, provided the gun hasn't got wafer thin muzzles.

I have said several times before that I own three 10 bores. None of them have steel proof. I have put some big, fast steel loads through them all. They show no obvious signs of wear or damage.

My mate has recently put some F steel (5.5mm) through extended full chokes. No damage occurred.

Great respect for your experience and ability however you must be aware that external extended chokes perform in a different manner to fixed chokes 

they are able to flex and are basically a sacrificial addition to the gun a throwaway item 

 

[Terry2016]

3 minutes ago, Cannon said:

The point a lot of us are trying to make is that there seems to be absolutely no hard evidence to support the eradication of lead shot. It just seems to be made up statistics and guesswork that many are taking as gospel when it clearly isn't. Where are the carcasses of the 100,000 birds that died of lead poisoning? I've never seen or heard of one never mind 100,000. Lead is a natural element that comes from the earth, whereas steel is a synthetic man made material. Have you seen the effects that rusting steel has on trees and wood? The reason for the transition is because the shooting organisations who are supposed to represent shooters have had the wool pulled over their eyes with made up figures and wishy washy reports written by ill educated environmentalists. It's a response based purely on emotion and political point scoring.

The GWCT publish the evidence of bird lead ingestion, they support shooting. 

https://www.gwct.org.uk/policy/briefings/lead-ammunition/

Lead is toxic, oxidisation (rust) that happens to steel is not toxic. trees and wood ? is that relevant ?unless you are rough shooting you shouldn't be shooting in to trees! 

Political scoring, agreed . public perception agreed. for the benefit of wildlife and humans agreed. 

Sounds positive does it not ?

 

[rbrowning2]

gamebore again, so pre 1954 look to have the gun reproofed.
Standard Steel
Standard Steel ammunition can be used in any shotgun (other than Damascus/twist barrelled guns), in good order bearing any London or Birmingham proof symbols 1954 onwards. For pre 1954 shotguns guidance will be needed from the British Proof Authority. The shotgun must be chambered for the case length of the ammunition as a minimum. Longer chamber lengths can be used with shorter ammunition.

 

Edited August 9, 2020 by rbrowning2

[motty]

1 minute ago, Old farrier said:

Great respect for your experience and ability however you must be aware that external extended chokes perform in a different manner to fixed chokes 

they are able to flex and are basically a sacrificial addition to the gun a throwaway item 

 

I agree they are different. I probably wouldn't entertain using such large shot through my guns (Perhaps excepting my 10 bore with .705 Terror, a choke which is said to be almost indestructible), but i have used 4.3mm in my fixed full choke kestrel s/s 10.

[Terry2016]

14 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

Building on the Quad Seal™ design, the Bio Wad™ is a new full cup wad utilising the same cutting-edge material which is 100% environmentally safe.

Environmentally safe is not necessary bio-degradable, just that it can be recycled by putting in the recycling bin.

Yet to see a statement from gamebore that explains exactly how biodegradable theses wads really are.

And you know this for a fact how?

https://gamebore.com/uk/cartridge/game/12g-dark-storm-precision-steel-biowad

Look at the video the wads are biodegradable... in 24hrs ...... 

https://player.vimeo.com/video/435748326

And I am with Motty the pictures are false made up by people who have no clue ... if you see my previous post on this topic one video is old english guns shooting steel cartridges without wads ... and guess what no barrel damage ....... 

Edited August 9, 2020 by Terry2016

[rbrowning2]

7 minutes ago, Terry2016 said:

https://gamebore.com/uk/cartridge/game/12g-dark-storm-precision-steel-biowad

Look at the video the wads are biodegradable... 

And I am with Motty the pictures are false made up by people who have no clue ... if you see my previous post on this topic one video is old english guns shooting steel cartridges without wads ... and guess what no barrel damage ....... 

Thanks for pointing to the the video, look to be the same or very similar to the Eley wads dissolve in water.

regret I do not share your view that steel shot does not or will not damage a gun.

Edited August 9, 2020 by rbrowning2

[Terry2016]

6 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

Thanks for pointing to the the video, look to be the same or very similar to the Eley wads dissolve in water.

regret I do not share your view that steel shot does not or will not damage a gun.

No problem.  

Shot steel for years... no issues with any of my guns.. i can only speak from experience.. and of course the fact that all gunsmiths and makers are stating that its fine....

 

[Cannon]

7 minutes ago, Terry2016 said:

The GWCT publish the evidence of bird lead ingestion, they support shooting. 

https://www.gwct.org.uk/policy/briefings/lead-ammunition/

Lead is toxic, oxidisation (rust) that happens to steel is not toxic. trees and wood ? is that relevant ?unless you are rough shooting you shouldn't be shooting in to trees! 

Political scoring, agreed . public perception agreed. for the benefit of wildlife and humans agreed. 

Sounds positive does it not ?

 

Doesn't sound positive at all. I've just read that report and it backs up exactly what I said in my last post. It's mostly speculation. Claiming that thousands of birds die of lead poisoning but there's no proof because the bodies are never found? Are they serious? According to the report many of the birds are eaten by predatory animals. Where are the thousands of foxes that have died as a result of lead poisoning? What about the rest of the predators? They're probably hiding somewhere too. That report cannot be taken seriously at all.

[Old farrier]

28 minutes ago, Terry2016 said:

No problem.  

Shot steel for years... no issues with any of my guns.. i can only speak from experience.. and of course the fact that all gunsmiths and makers are stating that its fine....

 

Would you like to tell us the average amount of cartridges you fire on a day game shooting and the gun that you would generally use the steel cartridges with?

[McSpredder]

4 hours ago, motty said:

Most of the pictures on the internet of guns damaged by steel shot are bull/fake/erroneous.

4 hours ago, Terry2016 said:

And I am with Motty the pictures are false made up by people who have no clue ...

Is there actual evidence that those pictures are false?   Does a person need special training or qualifications in order to distinguish between real pictures and false ones, or is anybody entitled to pronounce "Fake news, fake news", in the manner of a well known politician?

4 hours ago, Terry2016 said:

Firstly - steel ricochet is not a concern... lead will also ricochet

If you are suggesting that hard shot (eg steel) will not ricochet more than softer shot (eg lead), how would you reconcile that with all evidence relating to coefficient of restitution, a concept that has been taught in school science classes for a very long time and is employed in some types of hardness testing instruments?