Pigeons compared to clays

[Jim Neal]

On 25/08/2021 at 08:57, barbel said:

pigeons you can wait then when you scratch a itch, one fly's over

Ain't that true! I've lost count of the number of pigeons that have flown ove me whilst I've got the wrong 'weapon' in my hand!

Also, the bus stop trick is uncanny.  Being right-handed, I've learned to always put a cigarette in the left corner of my mouth before lighting it.  The amount of birds I've shot with a freshly lit fag hanging out my mouth is unreal.  I'm afraid to give up smoking in case my returns dwindle!

[wymberley]

On 25/08/2021 at 17:45, Vince Green said:

Under all those feathers the body size of a pigeon is much less than a pheasant. Probably close to a quarter.. Thats why, pattern density is everything, I always used 7s 

There are a lot of holes in the pattern  bigger than a pigeon's body at 40yds with 6s Try it for yourself

 

The great advantage with clays is that when you miss you can repeat it over and over again till you get it right

Yep. The vulnerable area of a cock pheasant is 41 sq ins and the hen, 31. For a woodpigeon, it's 16.

[Vince Green]

6 minutes ago, wymberley said:

Yep. The vulnerable area of a cock pheasant is 41 sq ins and the hen, 31. For a woodpigeon, it's 16.

Thanks for that, and some areas are less vunerable than others. It doesn't eliminate the possibility of a lightly pricked bird from a single stray pellet. You can knock a lot of feathers off a pigeon and still watch it fly off

Edited August 27, 2021 by Vince Green

[Shotkam]

On 24/11/2020 at 13:16, Ultrastu said:

Does nobody feel it unethical to shoot at a bird where we only have say a 20 % chance of bringing it down .  5 /1 cartridge ratio . 

I'd argue that you haven't missed the bird at all just peppered it with a few low energy pellets and watch it fly onwards  , to what ever fate becomes it later .

I know it sounds a bit holier than thou .but I strive when decoying to at least have a 2/1 cart to bird ratio at the end of the day .

I count my carts and if the number is getting a bit too high as the day goes on I try at least to rain in my ranges to around 30 yds this (funnily enough) does the trick and i can go 1/1 for a good 10 / 15 birds before i fuff a shot or 2  .

In Rifle shooting we always strive to be as humane as possible .why is shotgun shooting seemingly exempt .? 

 

Anyone who has spent time on a pattern plate will soon realise that in reality much of what is said about is about loss of energy is just wrong.

Even at 50yards many cartridge are absolutely pancaked and no gamebird let alone a weakly Pigeon is going to survive that.

Pigeon shooting - remember at least 50% of the time you will be missing because of line rather than lead.

[wymberley]

On 23/11/2020 at 16:24, old'un said:

Try some 28g 7.5 (UK 7s) felt wad, you will be surprised at how well they kill at range, occasionally I pluck a pigeon to see how many pellets have hit the bird, the other day I took a long crosser, on pacing it out it was around 50 yards, on plucking the bird in the field I was surprised to find it was hit by 6 pellets through ¼ choke.

Funnily enough that's how a shotgun works. In order to consistently kill (as far as it's reasonable to achieve) two large separate studies concluded that on average some 6 pellet potential strikes are necessary. Therefore, that figure can be expected on occasion. Unfortunately, for consistency, the given range, choke and cartridge as specified is well out of order.

I'm with Ultrastu on this one. 

18 minutes ago, Shotkam said:

Anyone who has spent time on a pattern plate will soon realise that in reality much of what is said about is about loss of energy is just wrong.

Even at 50yards many cartridge are absolutely pancaked and no gamebird let alone a weakly Pigeon is going to survive that.

Pigeon shooting - remember at least 50% of the time you will be missing because of line rather than lead.

What is pancaked, please?

What has a pattern plate got to do with energy, please?

[old'un]

1 hour ago, Shotkam said:

Anyone who has spent time on a pattern plate will soon realise that in reality much of what is said about is about loss of energy is just wrong.

Even at 50yards many cartridge are absolutely pancaked and no gamebird let alone a weakly Pigeon is going to survive that.

Pigeon shooting - remember at least 50% of the time you will be missing because of line rather than lead.

I always thought that most birds were missed behind, not enough lead.

[Shotkam]

1 hour ago, wymberley said:

Funnily enough that's how a shotgun works. In order to consistently kill (as far as it's reasonable to achieve) two large separate studies concluded that on average some 6 pellet potential strikes are necessary. Therefore, that figure can be expected on occasion. Unfortunately, for consistency, the given range, choke and cartridge as specified is well out of order.

I'm with Ultrastu on this one. 

What is pancaked, please?

What has a pattern plate got to do with energy, please?

When the shot hits the plate at a certain velocity the shot deforms from a sphere to a flat disc.

The level to which the shot is 'pancaked' is a very good indication of the level of energy the shot has retained when it strikes the pattern plate.

I have an interest in ballistics and do a lot of shooting so I can apply pattern plate results into the field.

Gel blocks are another accurate way of determining the energy in a pellet / bullet also. 

[old'un]

2 hours ago, wymberley said:

Funnily enough that's how a shotgun works. In order to consistently kill (as far as it's reasonable to achieve) two large separate studies concluded that on average some 6 pellet potential strikes are necessary. Therefore, that figure can be expected on occasion. Unfortunately, for consistency, the given range, choke and cartridge as specified is well out of order.

I'm with Ultrastu on this one.

and at what range is this 6 pellet potential strike and what shot size?

[wymberley]

41 minutes ago, Shotkam said:

When the shot hits the plate at a certain velocity the shot deforms from a sphere to a flat disc.

The level to which the shot is 'pancaked' is a very good indication of the level of energy the shot has retained when it strikes the pattern plate.

I have an interest in ballistics and do a lot of shooting so I can apply pattern plate results into the field.

Gel blocks are another accurate way of determining the energy in a pellet / bullet also. 

Many thanks for taking the time to reply - I lost my steel plate years ago and haven't a clue where it went so have used paper ever since. Assuming one can get sufficient pattern density at 50 yards, what would be the terminal thickness of a bog standard No 7 at that distance having a terminal energy of c0.7 ftlbs 

[wymberley]

29 minutes ago, old'un said:

and at what range is this 6 pellet potential strike and what shot size?

Damn, here we go again - I forgot to hit the Submit Reply bar :

At what would be your maximum range in conjunction with your choice of shot size, load weight and choke. Shotgun performance suffers from the laws of diminishing returns. Obviously, when it comes to the actual shooting the theory may well need adjusting to ones' specific needs. As I rarely, if ever, push things to the limit, I prefer to settle for a marginally lower average pellet count.

[Shotkam]

1 hour ago, old'un said:

and at what range is this 6 pellet potential strike and what shot size?

Experienced shooters on here will know that with the right gun cartridge combination it does not take 6 pellet strikes to kill a bird.

1 pellet in any of the vital organs will kill the bird.

Of course 1 pellet in a random place on the bird is not going to be humane.

I use No.5 for everything when I can and put the shot in the correct place and it does all anyone could ask, keeping sufficient energy out to those longer distances.

Shoot within your capabilities - for some that may be 30 yards and others could be competent repeatedly at 60 yards. 

[Shotkam]

1 hour ago, wymberley said:

Many thanks for taking the time to reply - I lost my steel plate years ago and haven't a clue where it went so have used paper ever since. Assuming one can get sufficient pattern density at 50 yards, what would be the terminal thickness of a bog standard No 7 at that distance having a terminal energy of c0.7 ftlbs 

I wouldn't be shooting at 50 yards with No.7, there is insufficient energy for clean kills on strong gamebirds, but pigeons with correct cartridge gun combination, if you are selective with your shots you are looking at max. 40 yards for consistency. .

[wymberley]

One picture......... 40 yards Imp Cyl 1&1/8oz 6&1/2 shot

[old'un]

41 minutes ago, wymberley said:

One picture......... 40 yards Imp Cyl 1&1/8oz 6&1/2 shot

Little lost with that picture, what size is the big circle? And has it had 6 cartridges fired at it?

[wymberley]

12 minutes ago, old'un said:

Little lost with that picture, what size is the big circle? And has it had 6 cartridges fired at it?

Yes, it's the conventional pattern test 30" and has taken 6 rounds. With the exception of energy, I'm sure someone will be able to give you all the info that just that one picture is telling us. The small circles are the proverbial 5"

Edited August 28, 2021 by wymberley

[Shotkam]

2 hours ago, wymberley said:

One picture......... 40 yards Imp Cyl 1&1/8oz 6&1/2 shot

What a fantastic idea - never seen a photo like that myself and I plan to follow your idea if you don't mind !

Is the average correct as written on the photo - after 6 shots some are 4 and one is 62 average !!! ?

2 hours ago, wymberley said:

One picture......... 40 yards Imp Cyl 1&1/8oz 6&1/2 shot

How did you delete the shot that hit outside the small circles from the photo ? Thanks

[wymberley]

46 minutes ago, Shotkam said:

What a fantastic idea - never seen a photo like that myself and I plan to follow your idea if you don't mind !

Is the average correct as written on the photo - after 6 shots some are 4 and one is 62 average !!! ?

How did you delete the shot that hit outside the small circles from the photo ? Thanks

Where there are two figures in a small circle, the second is preceded by a decimal point.

They started life as photo's which I enlarged and then laid on some paper and having already copied the circles I lined everything up and got busy with a 'pin' then marked the pricks. but ignored those pellets which fell outside of the circles for clarity. Also, it was easier for the printers.

At the time I didn't quite know what I was seeing, but Dr Roger Giblin bought a copy of my work and he did. This was at the time when the NTS was kicking off and there were serious studies going on into the performance of lead shot so that a fairer comparison with the new NTS could be had. In effect this work made a mockery to an extent of what we'd always been told, read and believed. More than 30 years later there are still those who believe that 3 pellets plus 10% for stringing with the full30" being effective is the case. Just one picture reflects otherwise on both counts.

[Stonepark]

On 27/08/2021 at 12:24, wymberley said:

Yep. The vulnerable area of a cock pheasant is 41 sq ins and the hen, 31. For a woodpigeon, it's 16.

Your 'vulnerables' are a lot bigger than mine....

 

I use 10, 9 and 5 respectively.

Edited August 28, 2021 by Stonepark

[Shotkam]

38 minutes ago, wymberley said:

Where there are two figures in a small circle, the second is preceded by a decimal point.

They started life as photo's which I enlarged and then laid on some paper and having already copied the circles I lined everything up and got busy with a 'pin' then marked the pricks. but ignored those pellets which fell outside of the circles for clarity. Also, it was easier for the printers.

At the time I didn't quite know what I was seeing, but Dr Roger Giblin bought a copy of my work and he did. This was at the time when the NTS was kicking off and there were serious studies going on into the performance of lead shot so that a fairer comparison with the new NTS could be had. In effect this work made a mockery to an extent of what we'd always been told, read and believed. More than 30 years later there are still those who believe that 3 pellets plus 10% for stringing with the full30" being effective is the case. Just one picture reflects otherwise on both counts.

That's really interesting.

When I pattern cartridges I jus normally use paper, then I can lay side by side with other test shots and compare.

Everything is 20 guage with open chokes as that pans out to be the best choice for all round shooting, be it a 20 yard decoyed pigeon or a 50 yard driven pheasant, using different loads of course.

 

 

[wymberley]

10 minutes ago, Stonepark said:

Your 'vulnerables' are a lot bigger than mine....

 

I use 10, 9 and 5 respectively.

Are your vulnerables vitals?

[Stonepark]

Just now, wymberley said:

Are your vulnerables vitals?

Correct..... brain pan, spine down to wings and heart & the major arteries.

Effectively those areas giving an almost instant kill.

 

Lungs, liver, rear of spine are excluded as are bone breaks in wings etc

[mgsontour]

On 22/11/2020 at 21:00, Ultrastu said:

50 yds is too far away to kill a pigeon .

There isnt enough lead on target or enough energy .

Clays require only a few hits at low energy to break .

40 yds is my maximum on pige and crows .

The energy and pattern fail considerably after this .

I tell people roughly the same as you and the younger ones think I'm stupid until I ask them. . . .  how high is that tree  - to which they ain't got a clue!