AstraZeneca vaccine

[JohnfromUK]

19 minutes ago, stuartc44 said:

Why would would you put your child forward for testing anything until it's been fully approved for adults? It's possible risks of long term problems that are the issue.

I have no suitable children, so it is a rhetorical question, but whilst the Covid risk to healthy children is very low, the risk to children with certain underlying and other medical conditions is not so low - therefore it is important to get a vaccine (if only for the 'at risk' children) if possible.

The risks of long term problems not just low - but are virtually zero.  If I had children - they would get a vaccine - just as I always had flu vaccines annually from the age of 8, polio vaccine, TB vaccine, various vaccines to go overseas etc.  (I am too old to have had the measles and mumps one - and had real measles and mumps instead, but would much rather have had the vaccine).

[stuartc44]

The risks are not low enough for the UK medicenes regulator to give full approval are they? They will wait until they have more information to base their decision on. Unless you know more than they do.

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, stuartc44 said:

The risks are not low enough for the UK medicenes regulator to give full approval are they?

The risks are low enough for them to have given the present level of approval.  I suspect the 'full' approval is more a matter of following procedures, dotting 'i's' and crossing 't's' etc., but I don't know.  I certainly don't know more than they do and simply follow the official NHS and Dept of Health (not to mention their international equivalents) advice - specifically that the vaccine is safe to have.

[stuartc44]

I think you'll find it involves continuing trials and collection of data.

[JohnfromUK]

3 minutes ago, stuartc44 said:

I think you'll find it involves continuing trials and collection of data.

So far therefore we now have about 25 million AZ cases - with a very small handful of blood clots and some 'minor' illnesses.  And we have saved maybe a few thousand lives compared to not giving the approval.  A good result in my book, VERY good.

[ordnance]

11 hours ago, Cannon said:

Bit rich coming from the king of cut and paste

It wasn't a criticism it was a question for serrac, so why don't you keep your nose out unless you can answer it for him, or have something useful to  contribute to the thread.   PS In case you didn't notice its about vaccines. 

 

Edited April 5, 2021 by ordnance

[discobob]

On 01/04/2021 at 20:02, enfieldspares said:

I'm sixty-three I grew up seeing poor unfortunates with stump arms because the then UK Government told their mothers thalidomide was safe.

My brother was affected - although not that severly - just on his hands and wrists.

On 23/03/2021 at 17:52, ditchman said:

vaccines and reactions are strange...........i had just the normal stuff with C-19.....including a numb top lip....felt really off colour for a few days which i controlled with paracetamol....which were a life saver........

many years ago i had a booster jab for yellow fever....within 1/2 an hour i thought i was going to die....i was so ill and felt pain in all my bones and body and was soooo nausious.....it was something i wouldnt wish on my worst enermy...........this went on for 3 hours and the wife was close to calling 999...........then in the space of 20 mins ...i went back to feeling totally normal......

reactions like this do happen..........(it was banter in the old days to believe the worse reaction you had the better protected you were....dont know if there is any truth in that )

think you were being very proactive....and at least both of you have peace of mind

Yellow fever is grown in an egg I believe - you may be allergic to it. I had an egg allergy appear on my medical record from nowhere - so prior to my having the jab needed for deployments I had to spend two days in hospital hooked up to a drip so they could test me!!

[serrac]

On 04/04/2021 at 23:26, ordnance said:

Did you cut and paste that, or do we have a expert on vaccines and immunology on the forum 

My own wording...

The subject of the first sentence is pretty well common knowledge to anyone who has read anything about how the vaccine works. The second is my own speculation about a potential outcome.

 

On 05/04/2021 at 07:33, oowee said:

Your DNA is continually subject to change throughout your life as a consequence with your interaction with the environment and as a result of time. It's more likely that your DNAbe altered by a virus developed by nature specifically to attack your metabolism, rather than by vacinne developed to protect it. 

Very true, but my post was in response to claims that this absolutely could never happen from the vaccine.  The relative risk does not become part of the discussion until and unless that point were conceded.  I'm not holding my breath 😊
It's a purely academic discussion anyway - it either will or will not happen and our opinions on the matter won't change things either way.

 

On 05/04/2021 at 09:19, oscarsdad said:

And your risk of a blood clot from the AZ vaccine is < 0.00000167%, so Covid is 10,000 times more likely to kill you that the jab is to cause a blot clot (which probably wouldn’t kill you). 

That would be great if blood clots were all we had to worry about.  I'm far more concerned about Antibody Dependent Immune Enhancement which could make symptoms much worse for vaccinated individuals.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41564-020-00789-5

On 05/04/2021 at 10:00, JohnfromUK said:

No vaccine 100% works, but that is not the main issue. 

The main issue is that the more cases there are in either vaccinated or un-vaccinated people, the more variants/mutations will arise - and sooner or later one of those will risk the whole thing starting out all over again - and no one wants that.  Therefore the best route is for everyone (who is medically suitable) should have the vaccine as soon as possible.  It isn't rocket science - it is plain common sense.

Immunization of chickens for Marek's disease would be a perfect scenario from your point of view but this has lead to increasingly more virulent strains of the virus.

https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1002198

The covid vaccines in existence are not claimed to prevent transmission of the virus so potentially fall into the category of "leaky" viruses which is a prerequisite for the above scenario.

Edited April 6, 2021 by serrac
duplicate response

[ordnance]

Quote

That would be great if blood clots were all we had to worry about.  I'm far more concerned about Antibody Dependent Immune Enhancement which could make symptoms much worse for vaccinated individuals.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41564-020-00789-5

Have symptoms being worse in vaccinated individuals ? 

 

Edited April 6, 2021 by ordnance

[serrac]

48 minutes ago, ordnance said:

Have symptoms being worse in vaccinated individuals ? 

 

Why would there be any symptoms in vaccinated individuals? 😀

4 minutes ago, serrac said:

Why would there be any symptoms in vaccinated individuals? 😀

But there is precedent for the pathological process

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-rsv-shot-idUSTRE4BM4SH20081223

[ordnance]

2 hours ago, serrac said:

Why would there be any symptoms in vaccinated individuals? 😀

But there is precedent for the pathological process

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-rsv-shot-idUSTRE4BM4SH20081223

Have there being any cases of Antibody Dependent Immune Enhancement, among people that have received the CV19 vaccine ?

Edited April 6, 2021 by ordnance

[bruno22rf]

Might be of interest, might not, but as a transplant patient (immuno suppressed) having now received 2 doses of the AZ vaccine, my latest blood results have shown no changes whatsoever in any field, my platelets remain unchanged and no other tested field has displayed any variation beyond normal fluctuatin levels. My immuno levels are as before (3 months ago) and the only drop has been in Vitamin D which, according to my consultant, is par for the course with the age of my transplant.

[ordnance]

38 minutes ago, bruno22rf said:

Might be of interest, might not, but as a transplant patient (immuno suppressed) having now received 2 doses of the AZ vaccine, my latest blood results have shown no changes whatsoever in any field, my platelets remain unchanged and no other tested field has displayed any variation beyond normal fluctuatin levels. My immuno levels are as before (3 months ago) and the only drop has been in Vitamin D which, according to my consultant, is par for the course with the age of my transplant.

Good to know 👍

[serrac]

1 hour ago, ordnance said:

Good to know 👍

Indeed

[serrac]

3 hours ago, ordnance said:

Have there being any cases of Antibody Dependent Immune Enhancement, among people that have received the CV19 vaccine ?

That's an interesting question and impossible to answer at this point given the expected outcome of ADE would be very severe covid symptoms resulting in death.  The vaccine has so far been targeted at the groups most at risk of this same outcome and it would be virtually impossible to differentiate the ADE from "natural" Covid cases.  Even if ADE cases were identified I would not expect to see any information published about them since that would likely be the death knell for the covid vaccine program.

There are however statistical analyses of government figures which suggest an increase in the death rate among vaccinated groups. 

https://www.ukcolumn.org/article/why-there-correlation-between-vaccine-rollout-and-increased-covid–19-mortality

If so, ADE might be a factor.  However known instances of ADE typically surfaced when the subject was challenged by the virus some time after vaccination and it's questionable whether enough time had elapsed to allow for that in these cases.  If there were in fact additional deaths due to the vaccine there was possibly a more direct effect in play than ADE.

The real tell would be an atypical emergence of severe covid cases among vaccinated individuals in groups previously considered to be at low risk - especially if the prevalence was significantly higher than among unvaccinated members of the same demographic.  Again I would not expect accurate information about this to be publicized through official channels and no doubt other explanations for the spiraling death rate would be put forward instead.

[Mungler]

I’m turning into my old man.

Today I felt compelled to email points of view at the BBC.

 

 

[oscarsdad]

9 minutes ago, serrac said:

That's an interesting question and impossible to answer at this point given the expected outcome of ADE would be very severe covid symptoms resulting in death.  The vaccine has so far been targeted at the groups most at risk of this same outcome and it would be virtually impossible to differentiate the ADE from "natural" Covid cases.  Even if ADE cases were identified I would not expect to see any information published about them since that would likely be the death knell for the covid vaccine program.

There are however statistical analyses of government figures which suggest an increase in the death rate among vaccinated groups. 

https://www.ukcolumn.org/article/why-there-correlation-between-vaccine-rollout-and-increased-covid–19-mortality

If so, ADE might be a factor.  However known instances of ADE typically surfaced when the subject was challenged by the virus some time after vaccination and it's questionable whether enough time had elapsed to allow for that in these cases.  If there were in fact additional deaths due to the vaccine there was possibly a more direct effect in play than ADE.

The real tell would be an atypical emergence of severe covid cases among vaccinated individuals in groups previously considered to be at low risk - especially if the prevalence was significantly higher than among unvaccinated members of the same demographic.  Again I would not expect accurate information about this to be publicized through official channels and no doubt other explanations for the spiraling death rate would be put forward instead.

With respect, what a load of antivax pseudoscience conspiracy nonsense. 
 

using a very clear anti-vaccine / anti lockdown website as a reliable reference source is pointless. I can create a website and fill it with rubbish articles to back up any argument. 
 

Your logic is sound - if mortality increased in groups with low vulnerability who had been vaccinated compared to their unvaccinated peers that yes, vaccines clearly are causing issues. Trials have so far proven that both the AZ and the Pfizer jabs are near as dammit 100% effective at preventing death from Covid-19. I don’t know what today’s global number of vaccinated people is, but millions have now been jabbed, likely saving tens of thousands of lives - we are skirting around a potential link to blood clotting in a tiny tiny number of people - just to be on the safe side. There’s no conspiracy-why would there be? Who is going to gain from vaccinated people dying or being ill? No one. 

[ordnance]

12 minutes ago, serrac said:

That's an interesting question and impossible to answer at this point given the expected outcome of ADE would be very severe covid symptoms resulting in death.  The vaccine has so far been targeted at the groups most at risk of this same outcome and it would be virtually impossible to differentiate the ADE from "natural" Covid cases.  Even if ADE cases were identified I would not expect to see any information published about them since that would likely be the death knell for the covid vaccine program.

There are however statistical analyses of government figures which suggest an increase in the death rate among vaccinated groups. 

https://www.ukcolumn.org/article/why-there-correlation-between-vaccine-rollout-and-increased-covid–19-mortality

If so, ADE might be a factor.  However known instances of ADE typically surfaced when the subject was challenged by the virus some time after vaccination and it's questionable whether enough time had elapsed to allow for that in these cases.  If there were in fact additional deaths due to the vaccine there was possibly a more direct effect in play than ADE.

The real tell would be an atypical emergence of severe covid cases among vaccinated individuals in groups previously considered to be at low risk - especially if the prevalence was significantly higher than among unvaccinated members of the same demographic.  Again I would not expect accurate information about this to be publicized through official channels and no doubt other explanations for the spiraling death rate would be put forward instead.

Is there not a possibility of ADE with all vaccines, including the ones we have being given from childhood.   PS You would need to give me a better source than UK column.

The UK Column is an alternative multimedia news website and associated British news pamphlet that was launched in January 2006. UK Column is headquartered in Plymouth in South West England. Mike Robinson is editor of the UK Column and Brian Gerrish is the Author/Editor/Owner of the UK Column Newspaper. Further, Brian Gerrish has appeared on US conspiracy theorist Alex Jones show.

During the Coronavirus pandemic of 2020, they frequently published misinformation such as Lockdown Deaths, Not Covid Deaths. In this article, they state “COVID-19 has been circulating for at least a year and yet there was no notable increase in unseasonable mortality anywhere until Lockdown regimes were imposed between late February and late March 2020.” This statement is false as lockdowns have saved numerous lives. They have also promoted anti-mask propaganda with this statement “Masks are utterly useless. There is no evidence base for their effectiveness, whatsoever. Paper masks and fabric masks are simply virtue signalling. They’re not even worn effectively most of the time.” This also is not true. In general, the UK Column is not a credible source of information that routinely publishes right-wing conspiracy theories.

[Sako7mm]

Just a thought, anyone worked out how many tinfoil hats serrac could have made in the time he’s spent spouting ****?

[serrac]

10 hours ago, oscarsdad said:

With respect, what a load of antivax pseudoscience conspiracy nonsense.

That's not an argument...
Please provide a reasoned critique of the article so we can all develop our critical thinking skills.

No need to create a website you can paste your flawed logic here...

[serrac]

10 hours ago, ordnance said:

Is there not a possibility of ADE with all vaccines, including the ones we have being given from childhood.   PS You would need to give me a better source than UK column.

ADE is specific to coronaviruses and a few others - it's one reason we don't have a vaccine for the common cold.

I've noticed you tend to just attack the source when presented with concepts that challenge your status-quo.
The article was sourced by UK Column from an external blog - I wouldn't expect any site you would consider a "better source" to publish it for fear of being branded "not a credible source of information".

Why don't you get together with Oscarsdad and give us critique of the article - I'm genuinely interested in where you think its logic goes wrong.

 

 

[serrac]

7 hours ago, Sako7mm said:

Just a thought, anyone worked out how many tinfoil hats serrac could have made in the time he’s spent spouting ****?

You've yet to demonstrate you have the mental tools to engage in this conversation.
Critique my logic please!

[serrac]

10 hours ago, oscarsdad said:

There’s no conspiracy-why would there be? Who is going to gain from vaccinated people dying or being ill? No one. 

Turn that around, who's political and scientific careers would go up in smoke if it was ever admitted harm was caused to a large number of people by an experimental therapy which had been virtually forced on them by the powers that be?

Liability? nah, no-one needs to worry about that.

[Sako7mm]

2 hours ago, serrac said:

You've yet to demonstrate you have the mental tools to engage in this conversation.
Critique my logic please!

Talking of tools, here you are again. Yawn.

[serrac]

1 hour ago, Sako7mm said:

Talking of tools, here you are again. Yawn.

I rest my case, nothing to see here... 🥳