Dominic Cummings Enq'

[udderlyoffroad]

8 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

There are a pile of reasons;

• We are 'probably' more honest in our reporting than many - indeed there are those who claim that many many of our reported deaths from Covid are not Covid, but the usual thing that happens to the elderly, possibly slightly hastened.  It is actually very unlikely we do have "the worst Covid record on the planet", but I agree it is not a good record in some ways.
• We have a old - and not very healthy population - living in some cases in many generation to a house ways - which encourages spread.
• The UK is and always has been an international hub with a vast number of travellers from all over the globe.
• We have a climate and culture that encourages indoor gatherings where respiratory bugs spread easily.

Well said; we are also the fattest nation in Europe - and obesity is a helluva factor in surviving any virus that attacks the respiratory system.

One suspects this 'of/with COVID' toll was deliberately generously counted by the government in order to frighten the populace into compliance.

Keep in mind that pandemics notwithstanding, we didn't exactly have the best post-mortem/cause of death recording system in the world to begin with; successive governments have woefully underfunded the coroner's courts, because investing in that doesn't generate photo ops the same way opening hospital wards does (or shouldn't!).

Even now, 'hospital admissions' for COVID are still counted as a positive test, regardless of why the patient was admitted.

So, I don't know where @toxo was getting his 'fact' from, but I'd be interested to hear it.

 

1 hour ago, toxo said:

But shooting the messenger won't help getting to the reason why so many people have died unnecessarily.

Nobody is shooting the messenger, DC has said what he's said before a commons committee.  Getting to the reason, as you call it, is what the public inquiry is for, which has yet to take place.

To my mind, who said what to whom when via WhatsApp, is a bit of a distraction from the important things, viz. the  policy decisions that were taken and why.  Cabinet minutes and SAGE minutes, not angry texts.

What DC is doing is nothing more than getting his excuses in early before the main event.  I've said it before, but remember Chris Whitty answers press questions as though he's talking to a QC at the inquiry, not a journalist.  I.e. "<poor modelling presented as fact>....This is not a prediction"

[toxo]

On 18/06/2021 at 14:52, udderlyoffroad said:

Well said; we are also the fattest nation in Europe - and obesity is a helluva factor in surviving any virus that attacks the respiratory system.

One suspects this 'of/with COVID' toll was deliberately generously counted by the government in order to frighten the populace into compliance.

Keep in mind that pandemics notwithstanding, we didn't exactly have the best post-mortem/cause of death recording system in the world to begin with; successive governments have woefully underfunded the coroner's courts, because investing in that doesn't generate photo ops the same way opening hospital wards does (or shouldn't!).

Even now, 'hospital admissions' for COVID are still counted as a positive test, regardless of why the patient was admitted.

So, I don't know where @toxo was getting his 'fact' from, but I'd be interested to hear it.

 

Nobody is shooting the messenger, DC has said what he's said before a commons committee.  Getting to the reason, as you call it, is what the public inquiry is for, which has yet to take place.

To my mind, who said what to whom when via WhatsApp, is a bit of a distraction from the important things, viz. the  policy decisions that were taken and why.  Cabinet minutes and SAGE minutes, not angry texts.

What DC is doing is nothing more than getting his excuses in early before the main event.  I've said it before, but remember Chris Whitty answers press questions as though he's talking to a QC at the inquiry, not a journalist.  I.e. "<poor modelling presented as fact>....This is not a prediction"

I strongly suggest you read this thread again.

I don't get the modern trend of cherry picking bits of a thread/file/conversation to suit ones argument.

Does it matter if something is misquoted on a forum? If some of the death figures might be the flu or pneumonia?

We're supposed to be one of the richest countries in the world and certainly one of the most democratic. With the right politicians and policies we should have one of the best records instead of one of the worst.

But you guys carry on making excuses and no lessons will ever be learned. As it is there's no accountability. There are no contact phone numbers on any website any more, why? Because it takes time and profits to talk to people rather than an automated message and when you are lucky enough to speak to an actual person and they don't have the answers they just hang up on you because what happens if they do? Nothing happens. If the phone rings for 20 mins because they're on an extended lunch break what happens? Nothing happens. There is no accountability any more and it's going on in the top levels of government just the same as everywhere else and people making excuses for em are just making things worse.

[udderlyoffroad]

13 hours ago, toxo said:

I don't get the modern trend of cherry picking bits of a thread/file/conversation to suit ones argument.

As opposed to...what.  I've re-read your posts again; you seem to be railing against the ineffectiveness of our healthcare system as a whole.  As am I, if you read my posts.  I think it's nothing short of completely scandalous that the NHS has effectively become the National Covid Service.  No other developed nation has reacted like this.

The NHS had terrible performance compared to other developed nations to begin with, so I guess it shouldn't be too surprising.

13 hours ago, toxo said:

Does it matter if something is misquoted on a forum? If some of the death figures might be the flu or pneumonia?

Yes.  Yes it very much does.  Nobody is restricting civil liberties because of 'flu or pneumonia.

 

13 hours ago, toxo said:

We're supposed to be one of the richest countries in the world and certainly one of the most democratic. With the right politicians and policies we should have one of the best records instead of one of the worst.

The inescapable fact is, if the NHS was such a good way of doing things, other countries would do the same.  The fact no other nation on earth runs such a healthcare system should tell you something.

 

13 hours ago, toxo said:

But you guys carry on making excuses and no lessons will ever be learned. As it is there's no accountability.

Bo**ocks!  Massive, hairy, sweaty bo**coks!

It's called a judge-lead inquiry.  With the legal power to compel people to give evidence.  That's how things are done in this country.  It may not be perfect, but that is how things are done here. 

As I said, cummings spouting invective is just him getting the excuses in early.  It is a sideshow from the main event.

13 hours ago, toxo said:

There are no contact phone numbers on any website any more, why? Because it takes time and profits to talk to people rather than an automated message and when you are lucky enough to speak to an actual person and they don't have the answers they just hang up on you because what happens if they do? Nothing happens. If the phone rings for 20 mins because they're on an extended lunch break what happens? Nothing happens. There is no accountability any more and it's going on in the top levels of government just the same as everywhere else and people making excuses for em are just making things worse.

What nonsense.  I'm making excuses for nobody, I want the illiberal a-holes masquerading as conservatives - but also the vast army of senior civil servants and especially SAGE - held to account before a judge-led inquiry.

To address your frankly poor attempt at drawing equivalence with private companies, if I have to phone a company for any normal interaction I would seek to have with them, I consider them to have failed already.  Any transaction I conduct I should be able to perform quickly and smoothly online.  There are exceptions to this of course, but whenever somebody on here suggests 'ringing round' companies, I have to suppress an "ok, boomer" type sarcastic response.

[toxo]

20 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

As opposed to...what.  I've re-read your posts again; you seem to be railing against the ineffectiveness of our healthcare system as a whole.  As am I, if you read my posts.  I think it's nothing short of completely scandalous that the NHS has effectively become the National Covid Service.  No other developed nation has reacted like this.

Don't put words into my mouth, I said nothing of the sort. Our NHS was the the best in the world by a country mile until modern conservatism started messing about with it. Covid strategy is dictated by the Government not the NHS and if the NHS doesn't have the means to do it's job properly it's their fault??? Utter ****.

The NHS had terrible performance compared to other developed nations to begin with, so I guess it shouldn't be too surprising.

Yes.  Yes it very much does.  Nobody is restricting civil liberties because of 'flu or pneumonia.

Once again your cherry picking out of context to suit yourself proves my point. The "flu or pneumonia" comment was made because some were using those figures to deflect from Covid deaths.

 

The inescapable fact is, if the NHS was such a good way of doing things, other countries would do the same.  The fact no other nation on earth runs such a healthcare system should tell you something.

 

Bo**ocks!  Massive, hairy, sweaty bo**coks!

It's called a judge-lead inquiry.  With the legal power to compel people to give evidence.  That's how things are done in this country.  It may not be perfect, but that is how things are done here. 

As I said, cummings spouting invective is just him getting the excuses in early.  It is a sideshow from the main event.

Wrong word and how do you know that what he's said isn't the absolute truth? I've got a feeling that it won't be DC looking for excuses.

What nonsense.  I'm making excuses for nobody, I want the illiberal a-holes masquerading as conservatives - but also the vast army of senior civil servants and especially SAGE - held to account before a judge-led inquiry.

To address your frankly poor attempt at drawing equivalence with private companies, if I have to phone a company for any normal interaction I would seek to have with them,

That point seems to have gone over your head. In order for you to have "any normal interaction" requires that someone on the other end of the phone answers it does it not?

I consider them to have failed already.  Any transaction I conduct I should be able to perform quickly and smoothly online.  There are exceptions to this of course, but whenever somebody on here suggests 'ringing round' companies, I have to suppress an "ok, boomer" type sarcastic response.

 

[udderlyoffroad]

7 minutes ago, toxo said:

Don't put words into my mouth, I said nothing of the sort. Our NHS was the the best in the world by a country mile until modern conservatism started messing about with it.

You can't seriously believe that? 

Look at any other developed nation in the world - waiting lists are essentially unheard of.  Our Cancer survival rates are embarrassing. 

And yet we paraded our healthcare system as some kind of shining light at the 2012 Olympics opening ceremony.  The rest of the world just smiled and nodded politely.  "We also have nurses and hospitals, you know."

And you should really look up Private Finance Initiative, and how New Labour absolutely shafted the NHS with it.

I notice you completely ignored my point about how nobody else in the world copied the NHS system?

 

1 hour ago, toxo said:

Covid strategy is dictated by the Government not the NHS and if the NHS doesn't have the means to do it's job properly it's their fault??? Utter ****.

I'd bet good money that there's a lot of tail wagging the dog going on. Look at how NHS England is unable to make GPs see patients.  Funnily enough, we'll likely find out following the inquiry.  You know, the one where nobody is held accountable?

As you're correcting my English;  Its job, not it's.

And as for lack of resources. hmmm.  The NHS receives billons per week.  Pandemics notwithstanding, I just cannot agree that the NHS' problem is lack of money.  Other developed nations do far better, often with less per capita.

 

1 hour ago, toxo said:

Wrong word and how do you know that what he's said isn't the absolute truth? I've got a feeling that it won't be DC looking for excuses.

Invective: noun insulting, abusive, or highly critical language.

Right word.  What do you think the 'absolute truth' is?  Once again, a parliamentary committee speaking to DC isn't the forum to get to the bottom of the government's response to a pandemic, the inquiry is.

 

1 hour ago, toxo said:

Once again your cherry picking out of context to suit yourself proves my point. The "flu or pneumonia" comment was made because some were using those figures to deflect from Covid deaths.

You say deflect, I say could have an influence on, or be relevant to the discussion.  You can't seriously believe that  suddenly having 0 recorded flu deaths, yet 130k of/with Covid deaths, are somehow unrelated and don't merit further investigation?  Or is it just a case of 'evil toreees bad, look at all the deaths, their fault' - because that's just incredibly intellectually lazy, and definitely not the way to hold anyone accountable.

 

1 hour ago, toxo said:

That point seems to have gone over your head. In order for you to have "any normal interaction" requires that someone on the other end of the phone answers it does it not?

My point seems to have soared over your dome too - I have a choice of companies and who I give my business to - as do you.  I barely get a choice of government.

But I really don't see the lack of phone numbers as any sort of trend that equates to lack of accountability - after all electronic communications leaves a 'paper trail'.

By the way, bit of unsolicited life advice - I'd strongly urge you to keep your communications with different organs of the state - HMRC, the local authority, etc, strictly written and never to phone them anyway.  That way you can hold them accountable far more easily.

[toxo]

1 hour ago, udderlyoffroad said:

You can't seriously believe that? 

I certainly do! But then again I'm probably older than you and can remember when it was good.

Look at any other developed nation in the world - waiting lists are essentially unheard of.

Prove that.

Our Cancer survival rates are embarrassing. 

No argument there.

And yet we paraded our healthcare system as some kind of shining light at the 2012 Olympics opening ceremony.  The rest of the world just smiled and nodded politely.  "We also have nurses and hospitals, you know."

And you should really look up Private Finance Initiative, and how New Labour absolutely shafted the NHS with it.

Oh! So Governments DO have a bearing on the way the NHS is run?

I notice you completely ignored my point about how nobody else in the world copied the NHS system?

 

I'd bet good money that there's a lot of tail wagging the dog going on. Look at how NHS England is unable to make GPs see patients.  Funnily enough, we'll likely find out following the inquiry.  You know, the one where nobody is held accountable?

As you're correcting my English;  Its job, not it's.

I stand corrected.

And as for lack of resources. hmmm.  The NHS receives billons per week.  Pandemics notwithstanding, I just cannot agree that the NHS' problem is lack of money.  Other developed nations do far better, often with less per capita.

Prove that.

 

Invective: noun insulting, abusive, or highly critical language.

Right word.  What do you think the 'absolute truth' is?  Once again, a parliamentary committee speaking to DC isn't the forum to get to the bottom of the government's response to a pandemic, the inquiry is.

 

You say deflect, I say could have an influence on, or be relevant to the discussion.  You can't seriously believe that  suddenly having 0 recorded flu deaths, yet 130k of/with Covid deaths, are somehow unrelated and don't merit further investigation? 

Once again you put words in my mouth. I said nothing of the sort. Again, what I did say seems to have gone over your head.

Some on here are maintaining the Covid death numbers are not so bad because they include deaths from other causes as well. That may or may not be true, I'm not qualified nor privy to the numbers to say. My point was to point out the stupidity of trying to deflect from the overwhelming Corvid numbers with such an argument.

 

Or is it just a case of 'evil toreees bad, look at all the deaths, their fault'

What are you saying? The Tories had nothing to do with it?

 

- because that's just incredibly intellectually lazy,

Maybe so but true nonetheles.

and definitely not the way to hold anyone accountable.

 

My point seems to have soared over your dome too - I have a choice of companies and who I give my business to - as do you.  I barely get a choice of government.

But I really don't see the lack of phone numbers as any sort of trend that equates to lack of accountability

Again you take out of context. Again, I come from a time when not answering the phone immediately had consequences. When putting the phone down on a conversation had consequences. When it was unheard of to not be punctual.

When you take accountability out of a civilised country, that country is on the way to hell in a handcart.

- after all electronic communications leaves a 'paper trail'.

By the way, bit of unsolicited life advice - I'd strongly urge you to keep your communications with different organs of the state - HMRC, the local authority, etc, strictly written and never to phone them anyway.  That way you can hold them accountable far more easily.

Thanks but no thanks.

 

[udderlyoffroad]

When was this period when it was 'good'?  Or is there some rose-tinted spectacles being donned here?  Or (more likely IMHO) the days before the internet when it was difficult to research and compare such things.  So it was only 'good' based on one reference point.

You still have roundly ignored my point that if the NHS was such a good system, other nations would have copied the approach.  The fact that they haven't should tell you something.

And I can't prove the absence of something.

24 minutes ago, toxo said:

That may or may not be true, I'm not qualified nor privy to the numbers to say. My point was to point out the stupidity of trying to deflect from the overwhelming Corvid numbers with such an argument.

QED.  If you don't know the numbers, you can't very well say that other factors aren't an influence. 

The famous example of a road traffic accident counting as a covid death, as the poor unfortunate soul had tested positive a few days previously; nobody even knows the magnitude of this mis-recording.

 

25 minutes ago, toxo said:

- because that's just incredibly intellectually lazy,

Maybe so but true nonetheles.

Post hoc, ergo propter hoc

 

26 minutes ago, toxo said:

Again you take out of context. Again, I come from a time when not answering the phone immediately had consequences. When putting the phone down on a conversation had consequences. When it was unheard of to not be punctual.

When you take accountability out of a civilised country, that country is on the way to hell in a handcart.

I still haven't seen a convincing argument that companies being less responsive to phone queries somehow equates to a lack of accountability.  It might be symptomatic of a greater problem, but it really isn't a straight line relationship.

As for unheard of not to be punctual, come on, pull the other one?  When was this?  And how would you know anyway?  The only way of accurately knowing the time was the pips on Radio 4 (or the Home Service to you) or phoning(!) the speaking clock.

The only people with a accurate idea of the time was the railway system in its various guises, as they had synchronised clocks, and look at how they did in terms of punctuality.

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, udderlyoffroad said:

As for unheard of not to be punctual, come on, pull the other one?  When was this?  And how would you know anyway?  The only way of accurately knowing the time was the pips on Radio 4 (or the Home Service to you) or phoning(!) the speaking clock.

By my calculations Toxo is around 160 years old 😄

[toxo]

4 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

When was this period when it was 'good'?  Or is there some rose-tinted spectacles being donned here?  Or (more likely IMHO) the days before the internet when it was difficult to research and compare such things.  So it was only 'good' based on one reference point.

You still have roundly ignored my point that if the NHS was such a good system, other nations would have copied the approach.  The fact that they haven't should tell you something.

And I can't prove the absence of something.

QED.  If you don't know the numbers, you can't very well say that other factors aren't an influence. 

The famous example of a road traffic accident counting as a covid death, as the poor unfortunate soul had tested positive a few days previously; nobody even knows the magnitude of this mis-recording.

 

Post hoc, ergo propter hoc

 

I still haven't seen a convincing argument that companies being less responsive to phone queries somehow equates to a lack of accountability.  It might be symptomatic of a greater problem, but it really isn't a straight line relationship.

As for unheard of not to be punctual, come on, pull the other one?  When was this?  And how would you know anyway?  The only way of accurately knowing the time was the pips on Radio 4 (or the Home Service to you) or phoning(!) the speaking clock.

The only people with a accurate idea of the time was the railway system in its various guises, as they had synchronised clocks, and look at how they did in terms of punctuality.

You've obviously never heard of a wristwatch.

[toxo]

3 hours ago, Rewulf said:

By my calculations Toxo is around 160 years old 😄

You might very well be right. Well at least I wasn't born yesterday.

This thing about age is actually relevant. Time was when I would get in my car to go somewhere and if the car in front wasn't going fast enough I just pulled out to overtake him. If I couldn't do it immediately I might have to wait 30 seconds when there would be an empty road on the other side and then I would overtake. Driving was a joy.

Contrast that with todays motorist who gets in his car and pulls out into the convoy. That motorist has never been taught how to overtake let alone get the opportunity to do so. In fact it probably would never enter his head to do so.

Now tell me, how am I gonna have a meaningful debate with such a motorist about driving in the UK?

[39TDS]

14 minutes ago, toxo said:

You've obviously never heard of a wristwatch.

I can remember the olden days when most folk had a wristwatch (but definitely not everybody).

When it came to brew time or lunchtime in a group of 6 people you would get 4 different times with a 10 minute range, one of the group wouldn't have a watch and the other had forgot to wind it.

[Rewulf]

40 minutes ago, toxo said:

Contrast that with todays motorist who gets in his car and pulls out into the convoy. That motorist has never been taught how to overtake let alone get the opportunity to do so. In fact it probably would never enter his head to do so.

Err, not sure what roads you drive on , but I can assure you people overtake ..a lot.. recklessly , and no , no one taught them how to do that.

40 minutes ago, toxo said:

Now tell me, how am I gonna have a meaningful debate with such a motorist about driving in the UK?

To be honest , I thought we were talking about the evil Cummings goblin ?

You know , the one who had the ear of high lord of covid death , Boris.
Who heads up the government you blame entirely for 'excess' covid mortality ?

Dont let your hatred of everything tory , cloud the real figures, and the real issues.
We didnt have  disproportionate deaths, compared to some countries, and thats with the government massaging the figures to try  and scare us into obeying lockdowns.
We have an NHS , yes, does it work how it should ? No. It could but its management and hallowed status make it impossible to reform.

Check out the per capita deaths from covid over the past year, we are way down the list, so your misinformed claim of 'we have the worst covid record on the planet? ' holds no water, whatsoever.

[Raja Clavata]

Cummings is proving he's not as smart as he thinks he is by trying to give Boris enough rope to hang Hancock with when what he should really be trying to do is give Boris enough rope to hang himself with.

I don't like the bloke but I can't deny he is pointing out facts about the herd immunity which are matters of public record, public record which the likes of P. Patel as well as some on here who seem completely oblivious / in denial of indisputable fact.

[udderlyoffroad]

6 hours ago, toxo said:

You've obviously never heard of a wristwatch.

Gad, so that’s what that thing on my wrist is, here’s me thinking I had a novelty ticking bracelet.

But tell me, you seem unable to even acknowledge, far less actually respond to, my point that the NHS is such a wonderful concept, it’s been copied, let’s see, none-ce the world over.

You’ve now moved onto “driving isn’t what it used to be”, and unironically used the phrase “going to hell in a handcart”. Did….did I trigger some kind of Pavlovian response when I somewhat rashly used the cliché “ok, boomer” earlier?

Anyway, Mickey’s hand and Goofy’s tail are both pointing towards 12, so I think it’s passed my bedtime. 

 

[oldypigeonpopper]

On 26/05/2021 at 11:02, ditchman said:

dont really like political topics on PW............but im stumped about the above

personally i detest him....but

is what he is saying ..true...and he is doing it for the love of his country and he really cares.........

or

is he doing it cause he is embittered and twisted at being dumped out of 10 Downing street...because he embarrassed the govt with his jaunt during lockdown and his aggresive manner and control he was exserting over the cabinate.......so they got rid of him

politics is a dirty buisness....im not interested in what goes on ...im just interested in the correct outcome........

wonder how this is going to end....or will it keep on following Boris like a bad smell  ??

Hello, seems like he's up to no good again ?? Did not quite catch the news report last night, did anyone see what this was about ?

[JohnfromUK]

Just now, oldypigeonpopper said:

Hello, seems like he's up to no good again ?? Did not quite catch the news report last night, did anyone see what this was about ?

I think he was doing an 'I'll answer any questions" session - which I assume to be on a (paid to view) platform called 'substack' - to which I don't subscribe.  https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jun/21/boris-johnson-a-pundit-who-stumbled-into-politics-says-dominic-cummings

Well, I guess his answers are rather meaningless as his memories rather seem to differ from those of others.  As the Royal expression goes, "recollections may vary ........"

[oldypigeonpopper]

52 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

I think he was doing an 'I'll answer any questions" session - which I assume to be on a (paid to view) platform called 'substack' - to which I don't subscribe.  https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jun/21/boris-johnson-a-pundit-who-stumbled-into-politics-says-dominic-cummings

Well, I guess his answers are rather meaningless as his memories rather seem to differ from those of others.  As the Royal expression goes, "recollections may vary ........"

Hello, ah that was it, so he thinks Boris stumbled into politics 🤔, where does that leave Cummings now ? how the mighty fall will be his next rant 🤔😁 that's worth a tenner 😀

Edited June 22, 2021 by oldypigeonpopper