How to get a better pattern with a fixed choke gun?

[Stonepark]

5 hours ago, Scully said:

Those darned variables! 🙂

Indeed, shotgun patterns obey the law of percentages and random distribution, hence why I like a min of 150 pellets in a 30 inch circle for pheasants as this ensures statistically that 99% of birds would be killed outright if in the pattern (the remaining 1% being wounded, whilst at 120 pellets 95% are killed and 5% wounded, whilst at 90 pellets 75% are killed outright but 25% are wounded etc etc.

 

That's not to say lower pellet numbers can't kill by chance or disable and bring a bird down, but the number of wounded and pricked birds is not acceptable to me personally.

[8 shot]

I watched Dave Carrie pattern a Gamebore Steel load in #4 shot at 40yrd and that didn’t look to bad. Maybe #3 shot are way to low on the pellet count 

[Charliedog]

I am surprised i have managed to kill anything cleanly having never shot at a plate or counted pellets, I  have no doubt it may make some difference and many find it an interesting hobby but i can also assure anybody else, any decent 30g 6 or 32g 5 through 3/8 chokes will kill birds dead out to sensible range if used effectively

[Stonepark]

28 minutes ago, Charliedog said:

I am surprised i have managed to kill anything cleanly having never shot at a plate or counted pellets, I  have no doubt it may make some difference and many find it an interesting hobby but i can also assure anybody else, any decent 30g 6 or 32g 5 through 3/8 chokes will kill birds dead out to sensible range if used effectively

You are quite correct, both those loads are more than adequate for a pheasant out to 40 yards, 45 at a push.

 

Problem with IO's setup is either gun or cartridges or both are not performing to an acceptable standard.

[wymberley]

2 hours ago, Stonepark said:

Indeed, shotgun patterns obey the law of percentages and random distribution, hence why I like a min of 150 pellets in a 30 inch circle for pheasants as this ensures statistically that 99% of birds would be killed outright if in the pattern (the remaining 1% being wounded, whilst at 120 pellets 95% are killed and 5% wounded, whilst at 90 pellets 75% are killed outright but 25% are wounded etc etc.

 

That's not to say lower pellet numbers can't kill by chance or disable and bring a bird down, but the number of wounded and pricked birds is not acceptable to me personally.

Funny thing choke. What happens if Gauss, Journee and Lowry got it right? 150 pellets from a bog standard 32g of No 6 is 50% or an IC choke pattern for the 30" circle. I think we can accept that Gauss did, so let's assume for a minute that our other two Names also got it right. Splitting our 30" into a 20" circle and a 20 to 30" ring we have  314 and 393 sq ins areas respectively. For pheasant, targeting hens as well as cocks, means that with a vulnerable area of some 31sq ins and the generally accepted need for a 6 pellet strike on average per bird of which we're talking 12 in the outer ring, some 72 strikes are required. With a IC pattern the 20/20 to 30 split is 26.5 and 23.5 respectively. This means that IC just makes full use of the 30" (393 divided by 31 times 6 equals 72ish equals 23.5%). In this example whenever the 30" pattern falls below 50% - either because of more open choke or because of extended ranges -  the effective pattern area will reduce. This will happen across the board except that the figures will change -  apart from the percentage relationship (on average, as ever with a shotgun) of the 20 circle to the 20 to 30 ring for any given overall 30" percentage. 

Edited November 22, 2021 by wymberley

[Shotkam]

21 hours ago, Stonepark said:

If you flip the image of the pheasant left to right, keeping the impacts as is, the pheasant would have flown on and likely died some hours later........ as there would have been no hits to any vital areas or bones to drop it immediately.

With a pattern as poor as this, 50% of the birds would be injured and flown on or runners, needing picked by dogs.... most of the pellets hitting this bird hit feathers or flesh wounds, only the chance grouping of three in chest, two in head and one in RHS wing bone would have brought it down, all the other pellets are ineffective.

Additionally, if you are off by 12 inches in any direction, the bird is only getting hit by one pellet or two at best, so you would have to be laser accurate to even get the result above, so could add another 25% of pricked birds, giving a total of 75% of non-lethal hits.

Tom Roster's CONSEP tests reccommends a minimum of 90-95 large pellets in a 30 inch circle to bring down a pheasant, which is below the tradition English number of 120 pellets of smaller shot, relying more on pattern to kill, whihc even then is comfortably exceeded by the so called traditional loading of 32g No6 which has 215 pellets at 30m in the 30 inch circle.

I am assuming it is the cartridges (more particulary the Ecowad) rather than the teague choke which are poor as at half choke you should be getting 130 to 140 pellets in the pattern at 30m.

 

 

I am amazed that a large percentage of people still choose to disregard the science that you have on many occasions taken the time and trouble to lay down for all to see.

The information you offer is priceless and to ignore it just demonstrates how delusional the human mind can become.

Anyway, there are many on here who appreciate your efforts, so thankyou. 

[Old farrier]

1 hour ago, wymberley said:

Funny thing choke. What happens if Gauss, Journee and Lowry got it right? 150 pellets from a bog standard 32g of No 6 is 50% or an IC choke pattern for the 30" circle. I think we can accept that Gauss did, so let's assume for a minute that our other two Names also got it right. Splitting our 30" into a 20" circle and a 20 to 30" ring we have  314 and 393 sq ins areas respectively. For pheasant, targeting hens as well as cocks, means that with a vulnerable area of some 31sq ins and the generally accepted need for a 6 pellet strike on average per bird of which we're talking 12 in the outer ring, some 72 strikes are required. With a IC pattern the 20/20 to 30 split is 26.5 and 23.5 respectively. This means that IC just makes full use of the 30" (393 divided by 31 times 6 equals 72ish equals 23.5%). In this example whenever the 30" pattern falls below 50% - either because of more open choke or because of extended ranges -  the effective pattern area will reduce. This will happen across the board except that the figures will change -  apart from the percentage relationship (on average, as ever with a shotgun) of the 20 circle to the 20 to 30 ring for any given overall 30" percentage. 

It’s all fine and thanks for the information 

however it’s for lead and there’s no mention of the powder load/ type or wad or how the barrel is bored 

it’s now virtually obsolete with steel or any of the other non toxic shots available 

I would like to think you would need more steel pellets and less tss/hw to obtain the kills 

I understand the mathematics and appreciate the information however things are moving on 

note none of this helps the op to get a better pattern from his gun 

[wymberley]

18 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

It’s all fine and thanks for the information 

however it’s for lead and there’s no mention of the powder load/ type or wad or how the barrel is bored 

it’s now virtually obsolete with steel or any of the other non toxic shots available 

I would like to think you would need more steel pellets and less tss/hw to obtain the kills 

I understand the mathematics and appreciate the information however things are moving on 

note none of this helps the op to get a better pattern from his gun 

Fair comment, although it must be said that I'm in no desperate hurry to kill off lead. If I haven't already, I'll go when lead does. Still got at least 10 years with lead I fancy.

Pilots used to learn to fly on piston aircraft. Soldiers used to learn to shoot with iron sights. Before both moved on to the technical stuff. Some folk have a misinformed idea of choke. If you can get to grips with lead and understand how it works one may waste less time trying to achieve something that isn't going to happen and particularly so as as we know steel patterns tighter.

[Old farrier]

21 minutes ago, wymberley said:

Fair comment, although it must be said that I'm in no desperate hurry to kill off lead. If I haven't already, I'll go when lead does. Still got at least 10 years with lead I fancy.

Pilots used to learn to fly on piston aircraft. Soldiers used to learn to shoot with iron sights. Before both moved on to the technical stuff. Some folk have a misinformed idea of choke. If you can get to grips with lead and understand how it works one may waste less time trying to achieve something that isn't going to happen and particularly so as as we know steel patterns tighter.

I understand how lead works and feel your very optimistic thinking you have 10 years of it left I hope you are right 

however some shoots are moving towards non lead non plastic far faster and I’d rather keep ahead than play catch-up 

We arnt pilots or soldiers and we I hope have moved on I doubt any soldiers will be using a 303 with open sights and why would they when there’s far better available there armament constantly changing to match the other side each looking for better ways to kill each other 

[wymberley]

8 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

I understand how lead works and feel your very optimistic thinking you have 10 years of it left I hope you are right 

however some shoots are moving towards non lead non plastic far faster and I’d rather keep ahead than play catch-up 

We arnt pilots or soldiers and we I hope have moved on I doubt any soldiers will be using a 303 with open sights and why would they when there’s far better available there armament constantly changing to match the other side each looking for better ways to kill each other 

My “some folk” was nothing more specific than just that. My pilots and soldiers was simply examples regarding the advantages of understanding the basics and having a firm grounding before moving on to the complexities

[Agriv8]

In answer to original post.

I gave a 535 trap gun in one of my cabs was originally fixed chokes and went to teaque to have multi fitted and barrel honing and polishing done all before I bought it. The work was done to tune the barrels to work best with the 2 skeet chokes at close ranges. The work was expensive 10 to 12 years ago iirc 

the gun works just as well for sporting layout and when choked up a brilliant high bird gun.

my personal thoughts on steel is I can not find a steel shell that will give me the same range and pattern as a old faithful lead loads. So I either have to get closer to my target or leave them for another day ! 
 

I do have to state re pellets and kills mentioned on page 1 this is why we have the second barrel we all like to think we can have clean kill with a left and rights or over and under but unless we have a second gun line or picking team left and right are increasing the likley hood of prolonged suffering on our quarry a pricked bird with the second barrel. This is where a sportsman and a theorist shooter may disagree.

I guess I am Trying to say I would take a higher bird with my first than I would with the second the higher choked barrel usually first I also like a 32g 5 in my first barrel and a hard hitting 32 gram 6 ( pigeon extreme ) in my second . 

atb Agriv8

[Scully]

22 hours ago, Stonepark said:

Indeed, shotgun patterns obey the law of percentages and random distribution, hence why I like a min of 150 pellets in a 30 inch circle for pheasants as this ensures statistically that 99% of birds would be killed outright if in the pattern (the remaining 1% being wounded, whilst at 120 pellets 95% are killed and 5% wounded, whilst at 90 pellets 75% are killed outright but 25% are wounded etc etc.

 

That's not to say lower pellet numbers can't kill by chance or disable and bring a bird down, but the number of wounded and pricked birds is not acceptable to me personally.

No one likes to wound, but there’s a chance that every time you take a shot you will wound a bird ( because of variables )  but if it is your main concern then perhaps shooting isn’t for you? 

[wymberley]

33 minutes ago, Scully said:

No one likes to wound, but there’s a chance that every time you take a shot you will wound a bird ( because of variables )  but if it is your main concern then perhaps shooting isn’t for you? 

Whereas it is never possible to totally avoid the chance of wounding, but if it is NOT your main concern as a sportsman shooting for pleasure, then shooting is definitely not for you.

[Scully]

2 hours ago, wymberley said:

Whereas it is never possible to totally avoid the chance of wounding, but if it is NOT your main concern as a sportsman shooting for pleasure, then shooting is definitely not for you.

I take all practical means to ensure whatever I shoot doesn’t suffer unduly, but if it was my main priority then I wouldn’t shoot, because it happens unfortunately. It goes with the territory.
All the patterning and dissecting of cartridges and studying of velocities, choke patterns and terminal velocity won’t prevent anyone from wounding…..variables. 
I recall as a young lad I wounded a rabbit and could hear it squealing and squealing. I rushed to it feeling absolutely distraught, to end its suffering, telling it repeatedly how sorry I was, and vowing never to shoot anything again after I’d killed it and seen what I’d done! That vow lasted maybe a couple of days.🤷‍♂️

[Agriv8]

14 minutes ago, Scully said:

I take all practical means to ensure whatever I shoot doesn’t suffer unduly, but if it was my main priority then I wouldn’t shoot, because it happens unfortunately. It goes with the territory.
All the patterning and dissecting of cartridges and studying of velocities, choke patterns and terminal velocity won’t prevent anyone from wounding…..variables. 
I recall as a young lad I wounded a rabbit and could hear it squealing and squealing. I rushed to it feeling absolutely distraught, to end its suffering, telling it repeatedly how sorry I was, and vowing never to shoot anything again after I’d killed it and seen what I’d done! That vow lasted maybe a couple of days.🤷‍♂️

Scully think we were brought up at the same school of shooting I feel the same if a rat does to stop squirming after 5 seconds and will be given another cartridge! 
 

I am with you we are quite a modern thinking small shoot extend tight chokes are even discussed ( I even Stick the ShotKam on now and again ) dogs are allowed to pick while we shoot as any wounded will be quick brought to an owner and dealt with.

atb Agriv8 

 

[flippermaj]

Ok, I have done a bit more rough n ready pattern testing with improved results.

I managed to get 74 hits in the 30 " circle using the eley steel no 3 with the same barrel that I used before and only managed 35!

Out of curiosity I also tried the following all at 40 yards

1) Same AYA Yeoman and the open barrel 32 grm remington steel, only 58 hits in 30 inch circle

2) 32grm Eley steel through a quarter choked barrel on a AYA No 3  82 hits and a nice pattern

3) Gamebore 36grm steel through AYA no 3 quarter choke, a tight pattern and 120 hits.

 

So in conclusion the Eley Steel 32 grm load is just about okay through the open barrel of my AYA Yeoman with 74 hits at 40 yards