Croohur Posted November 27, 2021 Report Share Posted November 27, 2021 Hi all, My wife got gifted a basic enough Birmingham boxlock from a family friend. Its a Joseph Braddell & Sons of Belfast badged Birmingham made boxlock. Neither of us has a huge amount of experience with English side by sides, so I was wondering if anyone would have an idea who made it. A search through the web would indicate that other examples were possible made by Webley and Scott and Bentley and Playfair. I know through the basic proof marks that it was made in Birmingham between 1925-1954. It has a snap action forend fastener. Chokes are improved and approx. 3/4. The family friend thought that his grandparent used it to shoot ducks in Lough Neagh many years ago. Its a bit battered, but hasnt been used in nearly 40 years as it was in a safe and then was used by the owner as a back up gun that he never needed. Anyway, I was curious what some of the marks are - The stamp on the barrels in the second picture - an inspectors mark?? The initials WH?? the 13 over the 1? And the capital R under the crown I have no idea!! Hopefully some one can enlighten me. Thanks Few more. Have never seen a "break" in the rib like this. Its decorated with scroll work, but a bit messy. Is it a repair job? Or something else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aga man Posted November 27, 2021 Report Share Posted November 27, 2021 Looks very much like my my old Midland gun co. Has the same snap fore end and the action/ top lever looks the same. Can't be of any help with the rib or marks though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enfieldspares Posted November 27, 2021 Report Share Posted November 27, 2021 (edited) It is a very basic "trade" boxlock. And in my opinion all the better for it. It doesn't purport or pretend to be anything that it isn't. There is no superfluous (and cheaply and badly done) engraving just that very attractive fine lining to the action. Form follows function. My late father had exactly the same bought for him new in 1919 on his then twelfth birthday. Engraved where it is just as yours exactly the same. Likely made on the very same "trade" bench. The thing's simplicity of engraving gives it elegance. The fences the same. the safety catch the same shape, style and form and identical except his has Henry Clarke & Son of Leicester as the retailer. My father's was sold as an ejector being done so with a Westley (Richards) "box". I later had the Deeley Edge forend catch changed to an Anson rod type when the gun was restocked (the forend wood was split so I had it and the forend wood done then when the re-stock was done). The crown over "R" stands for a re-proof BTW. It is a nice gun. Enjoy it and thank you for posting the pictures. Here is my late father's own. a Henty Clarke as noted it its original case that it came in when bought: Edited November 27, 2021 by enfieldspares Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Croohur Posted November 27, 2021 Author Report Share Posted November 27, 2021 Thanks for that information. Much appreciated. Here are a few more photos. I've seen some that have Braddell engraved on the action. This one jus has it on the rib. There are decades of grime and scratches hiding what seems to be a nice piece of wood underneath. Can't wait to give it a good clean tomorrow and see what she looks like Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob85 Posted November 29, 2021 Report Share Posted November 29, 2021 Looks like a lovely gun, make sure you put a few pics of it up cleaned and tidied! Dealt with the braddells shop a few times, bought all my shotguns from them before they had the fire and closed down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Croohur Posted November 29, 2021 Author Report Share Posted November 29, 2021 Fired a few shots yesterday to see if it was sound. Gave the bores a good soak and cleaned out today. Unfortunately, what the cleaning showed some pitting in one of the barrels. The top picture shows the worst of the pitting. Have no experience of this situation. It looks bad to me, what would be anyone else's opinion? It could be from 60 years ago and possibly why it was sent for re-proof... Anyway won't be shooting until I can find someone who can have a proper look at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enfieldspares Posted November 29, 2021 Report Share Posted November 29, 2021 (edited) My Manufrance 16 bore had more pits in it that South Yorkshire! Now I for sure would NOT use steel shot in it but lead and/or bismuth should be fine subject to a check by a gunsmith that knows what they are about. What pits do need however is being kept cleaned out after you've used the gun as they can be little wells for hygroscopic powder residue. If there is enough wall thickness it could be lapped out but if the pits are deeper than the lapping all you've then done is spent money to make the whole length of the bores wider! If it has sentimental value you could have it sleeved and that can cost from £400 and up depending on who does it. If it were sleeved you've then the choice to re-proof at 65mm or re-proof at 70mm. I can't advise on that except to say the risk with 70mm is the thing then gets fed a died of 36 gram loads...which maybe isn't sensible. Edited November 29, 2021 by enfieldspares Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Croohur Posted November 29, 2021 Author Report Share Posted November 29, 2021 Of course the pitting is in the open choked barrel so walls are thinner. So lapping might not be an option. The bores near the chamber end are in much better shape. It's really the front trigger open barrel end that has the worst of it. Will definitely get someone to have a look, as it's a nice gun to shoot. Just needed to add a bit of LOP to stock and we were all good to go Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted November 29, 2021 Report Share Posted November 29, 2021 What a nice looking gun! If it was mine and that pitting was at the muzzle, I’d have the barrels chopped and multi choked, or just chopped. Bit of a beaut’! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Croohur Posted November 29, 2021 Author Report Share Posted November 29, 2021 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Scully said: What a nice looking gun! If it was mine and that pitting was at the muzzle, I’d have the barrels chopped and multi choked, or just chopped. Bit of a beaut’! Well they are 30" barrels and balanced slightly barrel heavy so that might be an option Edited November 29, 2021 by Croohur Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benbobailey Posted November 29, 2021 Report Share Posted November 29, 2021 Hello, I would not recommend firing the gun in its present condition. "Do you feel lucky"? Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ditchman Posted November 29, 2021 Report Share Posted November 29, 2021 what about sleeving if you like it that much ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Croohur Posted November 29, 2021 Author Report Share Posted November 29, 2021 36 minutes ago, ditchman said: what about sleeving if you like it that much ? I like it. I don't like it that much. I'm in Ireland. If anyone does sleeving here it will be at least twice as expensive as in the UK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benbobailey Posted November 29, 2021 Report Share Posted November 29, 2021 28 minutes ago, ditchman said: what about sleeving if you like it that much ? He would have to love the gun to go to the lengths of sleeving,( transfer fee, insurance fee , complete sleeving job, re black, submit for proof , return postage , etc etc etc) Approx £1000 plus cost and left with a gun with a value of under £100 (in my opinion).Although it would solve the safety issue but at what cost. Regards , Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunman Posted November 30, 2021 Report Share Posted November 30, 2021 The gun is not an economic proposition to do more than light bore of the barrels dependent on its current bore size and wall thickness. Sad but I have scrapped quite few guns in similar condition as not viable to sell or make good . Multi choking can only be done if there is sufficient wall thickness at the muzzle and if the rest of the barrels will be accepted for proof which they are much more strict about now than they used to be also bearing in mind it would summitted as or at the same pressures as a 2&3/4" chamber .You also have to take into account the soundness of the lumps and ribs as well as the joint . To be honest I doubt if you could get it sleeved for less than £1500 . Shouldn't say this but personally would just shoot it with light loads , but of course as an ex gunsmith I feel I must advise that the gun is potentially unsafe and should not be used . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enfieldspares Posted November 30, 2021 Report Share Posted November 30, 2021 (edited) 35 minutes ago, Gunman said: The gun is not an economic proposition to do more than light bore of the barrels dependent on its current bore size and wall thickness. Sad but I have scrapped quite few guns in similar condition as not viable to sell or make good . Yes. Unless it either has sentimental value or you can go back in a time machine and have it sleeved back in the 1960s then, as said, it will cost more than the market value of the gun in 2021 and which will probably only ever get worse. So if it is to be sleeved do it now or don't do it at all. If it has sentimental value then it is still quite cheap compared with the cost of a new mad boxlock non-ejector if such are now still made? the AyA No3 being one such BLNE. The only other possible idea might be to keep it to use it only as a .410 using those 12 Bore/.410 Chamber Adapters that Parker-Hale, Webley and others used to make for as the gun is a non-ejector these would work better in it that in any ejector gun. What also may be of concern is the gap or "hole" at the muzzle where the ribs meet. If that is a gap I'd have a slight worry always that water may or may not have gotten between the barrels and they may be rusted, unseen, under the ribs. Edited November 30, 2021 by enfieldspares Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Croohur Posted November 30, 2021 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2021 If I was a betting man, and having a feel of the worst of the pitting I would say that it would be safe to use with light loads. But I'm not a betting man and will take it to a gunsmith. It was gun that did have sentimental value to the original owner, who gifted it to my wife. I'd rather keep it and use it, as its a nice old boxlock and out of respect for the family friend. But it would not be worth putting much money into it, and I think the original owner would not want us to. I did some livht honing on the bores today, just to make sure there was no rust. The pitting does seem ancient, there wasn't any sign of rust. There is some slight pitting on the barrels, but it has been smoothed over and re-blued at some point, probably around the same time as it was re-proofed. Anyway, I've put it in the back of the gun cabinet and will ponder on it over December and Christmas and get it to a gunsmith in the New Year. Would be delighted to hear anymore input from people. I have no experience of older sxs at all. I have a Merkel Model 8 from the 1970's that is bombproof so am eager to hear people's thoughts. Cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
London Best Posted November 30, 2021 Report Share Posted November 30, 2021 Hull Comp X 21 gram fibre 7 1/2 and crack on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enfieldspares Posted November 30, 2021 Report Share Posted November 30, 2021 (edited) My honest and candid advice to the new owner? If the gun fits you (and after proceeding with caution and light loads) it kills pretty much 80% of what you shoot it at then have the work done. If it doesn't fit then it isn't worth it IMHO. Nor if it won't make memories for you. For me my late father's 12 Bore gun I pictured in this thread makes memories. His 20 Bore G E Lewis didn't even though it was the better, much better, gun. And cased too. One of Lewis's "light magnum" proved for the 1 ounce 20 Bore Alphamax 2 3/4" load. And as it didn't make memories it was sold. Twenty-five plus years ago. I don't regret that at all. A gun that both fits you and kills what it's levelled at is beyond price and well worth the re-sleeving. If it neither fits nor kills then pass it by or pass it on as money on sleeving is wasted. Edited November 30, 2021 by enfieldspares Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benbobailey Posted November 30, 2021 Report Share Posted November 30, 2021 Croohur, I'll stick with my original thoughts. I would not recommend firing a gun with barrels in that condition. More so since you have now stated about pitting on outside as well. Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Croohur Posted November 30, 2021 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2021 Just now, benbobailey said: Croohur, I'll stick with my original thoughts. I would not recommend firing a gun with barrels in that condition. More so since you have now stated about pitting on outside as well. Regards 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benbobailey Posted November 30, 2021 Report Share Posted November 30, 2021 35 minutes ago, Croohur said: 👍 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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