Putin announces 'military operation' in Ukraine.

[Gordon R]

You are a very odd individual with issues from where I sit.

[mchughcb]

Just now, Gordon R said:

mchughcb - I don't believe you can be fast tracked into NATO whilst there is a conflict going on. That would immediately bring NATO into a war with Russia.

I am unclear as to what twilight world you live in, but it seems a very bizarre and depressing place.

Imma in the Zelesnsky propaganda world. Slava Cocanium.

 

[Gordon R]

mchughcb - your grasp of logic is tenuous to be kind.

[mchughcb]

The black and white view of the virtuous world. In the real world its full of grey.

[old'un]

Looks like someone is doing ok out of this conflict.

 

Lada recorded a 20.1% jump in sales of its cars in September.

[Mungler]

8 minutes ago, old'un said:

Looks like someone is doing ok out of this conflict.

 

Lada recorded a 20.1% jump in sales of its cars in September.

You know why that is don't you? That's the Russian military death in service benefit right there.

 

27 minutes ago, mchughcb said:

The black and white view of the virtuous world. In the real world its full of grey.

You seem intent on victim blaming Ukraine in all this. It's not a good look.

 

In the meantime we are where we are and all this "what about Rwanda" nonsense is totally irrelevant. I vote we keep supporting Ukraine all the way to the Russian border and if Putin wants to escalate, well that's his choice and as the holder of an enormous nuclear stockpile, it's always been his choice.

The nuclear balance has always hung on ending the world not really working that well for anybody and if that even keeps a crackpot like North Korea under control what does it say about the master strategist (and your master) Mr. Putin?

I still reckon the Chinese will have a quiet word with Russia along the lines of "we've climbed the greasy global pole to the extent that we now near enough own the greasy pole. Your turning the world into glass really isn't working for us right now because we have more to lose than anyone / anywhere else. Please tread more carefully".

We will see.

Nice to see the Putin apologists still hard at work though.

 

[Rewulf]

39 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

With respect Rewulf, I think you are making my case for me. Ukraine might be the last straw that broke the camel's back, whereby the West drew a line in the sand. That might or might not be the case, but none of that justifies Putin's invasion.

Drawing lines in the sand is one thing, sanctions , arms sales , even training, all fair in love and war, but beyond that ?

Its interesting to note some of the rhetoric when it comes to the use of nukes, ranging from declarations of war to a meek acceptance that its a possible scenario.
Why is a nuke so much more of an obscenity than say , carpet bombing, Japanese and German cities were levelled by 1000 bomber raids , that were far more destructive than the first 2 nukes, yet they seemed perfectly acceptable as a method of waging war, some 'daisycutter' fuel air bombs used in Afghan and Vietnam had yields equivalent to small nukes.

I digress.
The point is , Ukraine had considerable US funding poured into it after 91, whereas other ex soviet bloc countries needed less so before they became 'westernised' , and dont get me wrong , nothing wrong with western values and culture, especially after the grey days of the USSR.
My belief , is the process to turn Ukraine into a western leaning/friendly state didnt happen quite fast enough for the powers that be, so more extreme measures had to be taken.
The results of which have been evident since 2014.
Interestingly, the Orange revolution of 2004/5 was like a rehearsal or a failed attempt to push regime change in Ukraine, but thats another story.
So this 'line in the sand' is a metaphorical nod towards something happening to change Ukraine , which through a set of (un)intended consequences lead from 91 to where we are now.
Putin didnt 'just' invade, so the west had to make an example, this is the result of a complex series of events, some scripted , some not.
We need to understand this , and try and fix the broken parts for peace, if not for Ukraines sake , but for everyones.
Because I dont think weve ever been closer to the abyss.

26 minutes ago, Mungler said:

I still reckon the Chinese will have a quiet word with Russia along the lines of "we've climbed the greasy global pole to the extent that we now near enough own the greasy pole. Your turning the world into glass really isn't working for us right now because we have more to lose than anyone / anywhere else. Please tread more carefully".

I know right , thats why theyre scrabbling to build more nukes as we speak, cos they dont want theyre profits hitting 🤪

https://www.armscontrol.org/act/2021-12/news/pentagon-sees-faster-chinese-nuclear-expansion

[Rewulf]

Opportunity 'knocks' 

 

[Mungler]

More random whataboutery.

Any attempt to ‘understand’ any of the half dozen stated nonsensical reasons for the ‘special military operation’ (that was in fact a wholesale invasion) is the apologists dream. There is no rational explanation, there was no direct threat to Russia and what about the much vaunted diplomacy that everyone else is expected to fully exhaust other than Russia.

Putin locked himself in his bunker for 2 years whilst covid went on, he took too many steroids for his medical conditions and he read too many history books about Peter the Great. That’s all we need to know.

Back in the here and now, having come this far and with success, what possible reason is there to back off supporting Ukraine now other than to appease a mad bully who this week may or may not be threatening to use nuclear bombs. Brilliant.

No one wants the end of the planet. However, perhaps you could spend your time on a Russian shooting forum trying to convince everyone there that Putin should really just leave the Ukraine and cut his substantial losses.

 

[Scully]

4 hours ago, old'un said:

Looks like someone is doing ok out of this conflict.

 

Lada recorded a 20.1% jump in sales of its cars in September.

Jump or jump start? 

[mchughcb]

2 hours ago, Mungler said:

More random whataboutery.

Any attempt to ‘understand’ any of the half dozen stated nonsensical reasons for the ‘special military operation’ (that was in fact a wholesale invasion) is the apologists dream. There is no rational explanation, there was no direct threat to Russia and what about the much vaunted diplomacy that everyone else is expected to fully exhaust other than Russia.

Putin locked himself in his bunker for 2 years whilst covid went on, he took too many steroids for his medical conditions and he read too many history books about Peter the Great. That’s all we need to know.

Back in the here and now, having come this far and with success, what possible reason is there to back off supporting Ukraine now other than to appease a mad bully who this week may or may not be threatening to use nuclear bombs. Brilliant.

No one wants the end of the planet. However, perhaps you could spend your time on a Russian shooting forum trying to convince everyone there that Putin should really just leave the Ukraine and cut his substantial losses.

 

The Bush Doctrine. You should read the three main points of it. Change the words Bush for Putin and there you have it in a nutshell.

" it's okay when we do it". Says the USA and NATO.

[Mungler]

32 minutes ago, mchughcb said:

The Bush Doctrine. You should read the three main points of it. Change the words Bush for Putin and there you have it in a nutshell.

" it's okay when we do it". Says the USA and NATO.

If I was a Russian conscript I really wouldn’t fancy it. It’s happening, the Russian war mongering invaders are being repelled and all Putin has left in the tanks is nuclear - but you still insist on seeing this through your pro-Russian spectacles and are not able to find a single criticism of Putin in all of this. That’s just mental. 

 

[Rewulf]

3 hours ago, Mungler said:

More random whataboutery.

Any attempt to ‘understand’ any of the half dozen stated nonsensical reasons for the ‘special military operation’ (that was in fact a wholesale invasion) is the apologists dream *snip*

Don't know why you bothered typing all that, it's about the 10th time you've said it 😂 just put it on a clipboard and paste it in every page or so. 

It's just boring, we all know Putin's not a nice man, evil perhaps, but if he's so mad and deranged through steroids or whatever, why doesn't someone pop a cap in his nut, and we can all live together like hippies again 😂

Talking of steroids, you need to have a word with Big Z about them, he's even managed to grow facial hair and develop a manly gruff voice, but his anger management therapist says he needs to come off them for a bit, as his testes are at risk. 

Anyway, we aren't bothered about a few nukes are we, do your worst sauron 🙊

[mchughcb]

20 minutes ago, Mungler said:

If I was a Russian conscript I really wouldn’t fancy it. It’s happening, the Russian war mongering invaders are being repelled and all Putin has left in the tanks is nuclear - but you still insist on seeing this through your pro-Russian spectacles and are not able to find a single criticism of Putin in all of this. That’s just mental. 

 

I don't like the hypocrisy of the press.

USA uses special military contractors in Iraq 

Russia uses mercenaries because it can't get enough soldiers to fight.

USA uses national guard in Iraq 

Russia uses reservists because it can't get enough soldiers to fight 

You demand that I be critical of Putin? Pffffft. The only I think he should do is an investigation of the Nordstream 2 explosions and present the evidence and findings.

[Mungler]

6 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Don't know why you bothered typing all that, it's about the 10th time you've said it 😂 just put it on a clipboard and paste it in every page or so. 

It's just boring, we all know Putin's not a nice man, evil perhaps, but if he's so mad and deranged through steroids or whatever, why doesn't someone pop a cap in his nut, and we can all live together like hippies again 😂

Talking of steroids, you need to have a word with Big Z about them, he's even managed to grow facial hair and develop a manly gruff voice, but his anger management therapist says he needs to come off them for a bit, as his testes are at risk. 

Anyway, we aren't bothered about a few nukes are we, do your worst sauron 🙊

So, it looks like Russia can’t re enforce, no one wants to go to Ukraine, most of the kit they thought they had they don’t have because of corruption and now the economic prediction is the collapse of the Russian economy as all the people leaving for the front leave jobs unfilled. It’s looking bad for Russia for an invasion and a war of their own making.

Converseley Ukraine moral, kit and on the ground support remains high and their territory gains grow.

So, at this juncture the shills bang on about understanding the reasons behind the Russian invasion and offer up an apology for Putin, dig up some prehistoric guff on Bush and we have more random YouTube stuff no one will watch this time about Nordstream and a conspiracy theory I’d guess (having not watched the clip). Why? No one cares. We’re all watching the Ukranians push the Russians out and want to know when they get to the border.

2 minutes ago, mchughcb said:

I don't like the hypocrisy of the press.

USA uses special military contractors in Iraq 

Russia uses mercenaries because it can't get enough soldiers to fight.

USA uses national guard in Iraq 

Russia uses reservists because it can't get enough soldiers to fight 

You demand that I be critical of Putin? Pffffft. The only I think he should do is an investigation of the Nordstream 2 explosions and present the evidence and findings.

Absolutely bonkers.

Thanks for the last paragraph and the confirmation. 

 

[Mungler]

3 minutes ago, mchughcb said:

You demand that I be critical of Putin? Pffffft. The only I think he should do is an investigation of the Nordstream 2 explosions and present the evidence and findings.

No threat to Russia, invades a neighbour and starts a war leading to enormous loss of life and economic ruin and you can’t find anything to criticise.

You’re a brainwashed Russian shill and you want us to take you seriously?

21 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

It's just boring, we all know Putin's not a nice man…

Awkward.

Apparently not 😆

[mchughcb]

I don't want you to take anything from me. You make up you own mind, abuse whoever you like. Makes no difference to me. I'm  all for free speech.

[Mungler]

6 hours ago, mchughcb said:

I don't want you to take anything from me. You make up you own mind, abuse whoever you like. Makes no difference to me. I'm  all for free speech.

I’m a big fan of free speech too but it’s not a wholesale protective blanket the way you may think it is.

If I said ‘that Ian Brady, lovely fella, misunderstood and I don’t believe all the evidence against him because I watched some conspiracy videos on the internet and I think he was framed and set up by the government / a global conspiracy / the lizard people’, whilst I may be entitled to hold that personal opinion no matter how utterly deluded, abhorrent and crackpot it may be, that does not make my own opinion factually correct nor would it stop other people judging me, chins on the floor and aghast at the deluded nonsense I was spouting most of which being demonstrably and factually incorrect.

Now swap out Ian Brady for Putin, and we end up where we are now.

[mchughcb]

Ian Brady and Putin? 

Whataboutery right there.

[Mungler]

22 minutes ago, mchughcb said:

Ian Brady and Putin? 

Whataboutery right there.

Simple enough example save that Putin has had way more people tortured and murdered.

You remain free to think what you wish and support whoever you want, and I remain free to pour scorn and mock you accordingly 😉

.

Edited October 5, 2022 by Mungler

[mchughcb]

Speaking of brutal NATO torture how is Gitmo these days.

[Mungler]

17 minutes ago, mchughcb said:

Speaking of brutal NATO torture how is Gitmo these days.

That’s your mental leap in this, where your mind jumps to to underpin and justify your thoughts and unerring support of Putin’s regime?

Whatever.

[mchughcb]

As yes, those British condemned to death as foreign mercs by the Ukrainians magically were released after the Russians stepped in for a prisoner swap after a few months. Certainly doing better than the foreign enemy combatants in Gitmo.

But somehow nobody wants Shamima Begum back. Seems pretty racist to me.

 

[Stonepark]

4 hours ago, Mungler said:

I’m a big fan of free speech too but it’s not a wholesale protective blanket the way you may think it is.

If I said ‘that Ian Brady, lovely fella, misunderstood and I don’t believe all the evidence against him because I watched some conspiracy videos on the internet and I think he was framed and set up by the government / a global conspiracy / the lizard people’, whilst I may be entitled to hold that personal opinion no matter how utterly deluded, abhorrent and crackpot it may be, that does not make my own opinion factually correct nor would it stop other people judging me, chins on the floor and aghast at the deluded nonsense I was spouting most of which being demonstrably and factually incorrect.

Now swap out Ian Brady for Putin, and we end up where we are now.

Ah, the straw man argument, classic.

Free speech is the right to speak, the choice is that the listener can refuse to partake. No one is forced to listen to or forced to act in a certain way from free speech, it is the act of presenting information and allowing the listener to make their own mind up.

Dissent through free speech devises the truth, control of speech by censorship leads to false narratives recent ones being human made global warming, COVID is natural, COVID vaccines are effective, Russia started the Ukraine war, there is more than 2 genders or sexes, iraq had wmd's, 5G is perfectly safe, renewables can totally replace fossil fuels in electricity production, masks prevent COVID transmission etc etc etc

People who are opposed to free speech and that means all free speech are  always acting in their own self interest, and, not truly interested in finding the truth as if their narrative was true they would not need censorship!

You only have to look at how the COVID and human based CO2 climate change narratives based on censorship are falling apart as reality provides the truth and those who were censored and considered conspiracy theorists and deniers are proving they are correct through science and evidence.

 

[mchughcb]

Seen it all before.  From Ferguson,  Fauci and our own Sutton. Throw in some Al Gore with Greta and I don't like the smell of what they are selling. Blair and Howard following Bush like sycophants costing their economies trillions for no value to their citizens that elected them.