Putin announces 'military operation' in Ukraine.

[Mice!]

15 hours ago, Gordon R said:

Whatever went on hundreds of years ago or 20 years ago, doesn't make Putin less of a warmonger than he is.

I haven't seen any mention of hundreds of years, but when it's happened in our adult lifetimes it makes it relevant. 

If we don't learn from history then we repeat the mistakes.

Putin was allowed to do the last two land grabs with very little said, only now is the West bothered. 

Putin being a warmonger has never been in doubt.

[henry d]

56 minutes ago, mchughcb said:

 If you want external observers what country...

Jumping to conclusions there mukkah, I (everyone?) want neutrality, possibly the UN?

1 hour ago, mchughcb said:

The post Henry D put up has pictures of militia going into vote.

Err, again you seem to be jumping to conclusions, it was the reporting that was the emphasis of it all, pictues and videos are all very well and good but are just a snapshot in time some reporting the truth others can be, and are, manipulated so caution is necessary to get an unbiased view of what actually happened. 

Seeya in a few hours as I am busy DIYing and decorating, I look forward to lots of videos and little critical thinking. 

[Rewulf]

3 minutes ago, henry d said:

neutrality, possibly the UN?

 

[mchughcb]

53 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

Got to love the videos, with happy smiling voters playing up to the camera. You would never know there is a war going on. 

If anyone is convinced by the videos, can I suggest you seek medical help.

I'm convinced that people are going to vote in a referendum for self determination after 8 years of bombing. Have you got any evidence to the contrary?

19 minutes ago, henry d said:

Jumping to conclusions there mukkah, I (everyone?) want neutrality, possibly the UN?

Err, again you seem to be jumping to conclusions, it was the reporting that was the emphasis of it all, pictues and videos are all very well and good but are just a snapshot in time some reporting the truth others can be, and are, manipulated so caution is necessary to get an unbiased view of what actually happened. 

Seeya in a few hours as I am busy DIYing and decorating, I look forward to lots of videos and little critical thinking. 

That quote should have been to mungler who wanted external observers.

So you post a picture from a news source that shows defence force lined up to vote. I post some videos of non mainstream journalists filming people voting. If you have any evidence of people being forced to vote against their will or voter fraud feel free to post it here.

[mchughcb]

12 hours ago, Mungler said:

Raking over where the West went wrong over two decades ago in the Middle East - all interesting stuff to note but not determinative or a precedent on how we must approach the situation to hand.

Save for the risk of the world being turned to glass, it’s still heading in the right direction for Ukraine who have done a great deal more than anyone ever reckoned for, particularly Putin.

I've been to ground zero at Hiroshima. Lovely place, bigger than the city I grew up in. I didn't see much glass there except in windows. 

 

[Mungler]

The BBC did an interesting on the ground piece covering the spontaneous gathering / rally outside the Kremlin in support of the war. Yes I know everyone likes to be rude about the BBC but I’ll take their news in front of Kremlin Today and everyday.

The people were absolutely scared. Firstly the reporters were viewed with suspicion and then the crowd opened up - they were state employees and had been bussed in under threat. Then there was an outpouring - no one there wanted the war and everyone was petrified that one of their own was going to get called up and sent to Ukraine to pointlessly die.

Anyway, the same people who organised that rally in support of the Kremlin’s war will be arranging the referendums. Brilliant. And given the Russian track record for a free, fair and democratic election / anything  we’re supposed to take the process and the result seriously? It’s insulting. 

[Rem260]

38 minutes ago, mchughcb said:

I've been to ground zero at Hiroshima. Lovely place, bigger than the city I grew up in. I didn't see much glass there except in windows. 

 

Where you there in 1945 then. From the pictures I have seen there wasn't much left at ground zero ?

[Dave-G]

I'm thinking those gullible 'yes' girls being filmed were heavily indoctrinated students.

 

[mchughcb]

17 minutes ago, Rem260 said:

Where you there in 1945 then. From the pictures I have seen there wasn't much left at ground zero ?

I was there in 1985. 40 years later. You can still visit ground zero and the museum.

Plenty of places to visit nuclear bomb sites. The British were letting off bombs in Australia not far from where I used to work. The program along with the missiles on the Gunbarrel highway was purely for attacking Moscow. Became too expensive so it was wound up.

6 minutes ago, Dave-G said:

I'm thinking those gullible 'yes' girls being filmed were heavily indoctrinated students.

 

Same girls that lived through this as children since 2014 and still living through it.

 

[Dave-G]

7 minutes ago, mchughcb said:

I was there in 1985. 40 years later. You can still visit ground zero and the museum.

Plenty of places to visit nuclear bomb sites. The British were letting off bombs in Australia not far from where I used to work. The program along with the missiles on the Gunbarrel highway was purely for attacking Moscow. Became too expensive so it was wound up.

Same girls that lived through this as children since 2014 and still living through it.

 

That's no good for us who don't speak Russian.

[mchughcb]

Just turn the auto generate subtitles on because its in Russian and French.

[timps]

8 hours ago, mchughcb said:

Are you saying that soldiers are forcing people at gunpoint to vote in the referendum? Sounds a bit silly to me. I would just let them to stay at home at get the soldiers to fill out the forms themselves save time and money.

NATO has been supplying training and arms for 8 years to Ukraine in its civil war. 

I don't remember Russia conducting military exercises in Ukraine but I certainly certainly remember NATO conducting exercises in a non NATO country with troops on the ground last year. A country that was already engaged in a civil war.

I’m not saying it but the news media is reporting it, I’m sorry I don’t have a random guy off YouTube video of it but there are countless MSM links to it, here are just 2.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-marches-farther-into-liberated-lands-separatist-calls-urgent-referendum-2022-09-19/

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63013356.amp

As to why they are doing it, you have your view I have mine, which is any armed fighters turning up to your door asking you to vote on whether what they are doing is right or not can never be deemed free or democratic.

Also training at the request of a sovereign nation and driving tanks into and annexing Crimea are two different things.

8 hours ago, mchughcb said:

Exactly, which is why NATO has been supporting Al Nusra (a declared terrorist organisation) against the Syrian Government in Syria because its okay when they do it.

If you need reminding it was the Russian's that broke 4 year siege of Aleppo with Al Nusra who was supported by NATO.

That’s a Straw man argument, if you want to start a thread about Syria then feel free but it has no bearing here. Hypocrisy only exists if the person you are debating with states that everything NATO does is correct. I haven’t gone through everything NATO does to draw that conclusion one way or the other. 
 

I spend a lot of time in Eastern Europe, I was very very near the Ukrainian border at the end of March this year taking to quite a few people about it, hence my interest in it. I have never been to Syria so I have no idea what they think so I would probably stay out of that debate anyway. But your statement brings nothing to this debate regarding my own personal views as I might actually agree with you on Syria or I might not, I don’t know enough about it to form a view as of this debate.

Edited September 24, 2022 by timps

[Rewulf]

11 minutes ago, timps said:

As to why they are doing it, you have your view I have mine, which is any armed fighters turning up to your door asking you to vote on whether what they are doing is right or not can never be deemed free or democratic.

I would have thought being a unarmed  Russian soldier going about occupied Ukraine wouldn't be the best idea? 

Here's my take on it, and before you send MI5 round to kick my doors off, I've already said these votes are going to be a sham, if only because a lot of people who live there have fled, amongst many other reasons. 

Here's a quote from your links. 

'KYIV, Sept 23 (Reuters) - Russia launched referendums on Friday aimed at annexing four occupied regions of Ukraine, drawing condemnation from Kyiv and Western nations who dismissed the votes as a sham and pledged not to recognise their results.' 

Now, in what manner would a yes vote to join Russia, ever be accepted by the West? If the votes were deemed free and fair, independently checked and verified, would we say, oh well, fair enough, that's Russian soil now? Of course not. 

The referendum is pointless, as the outcome is decided by Russia AND NATO  already, no matter what the result. 

The question is   how far are we prepared to escalate? 

P. S. 

On a very nice beach in Kefalonia right now, and I appear to surrounded by Russian draft dodgers 😂

 

 

[mchughcb]

58 minutes ago, timps said:

I’m not saying it but the news media is reporting it, I’m sorry I don’t have a random guy off YouTube video of it but there are countless MSM links to it, here are just 2.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-marches-farther-into-liberated-lands-separatist-calls-urgent-referendum-2022-09-19/

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63013356.amp

As to why they are doing it, you have your view I have mine, which is any armed fighters turning up to your door asking you to vote on whether what they are doing is right or not can never be deemed free or democratic.

Also training at the request of a sovereign nation and driving tanks into and annexing Crimea are two different things.

That’s a Straw man argument, if you want to start a thread about Syria then feel free but it has no bearing here. Hypocrisy only exists if the person you are debating with states that everything NATO does is correct. I haven’t gone through everything NATO does to draw that conclusion one way or the other. 
 

I spend a lot of time in Eastern Europe, I was very very near the Ukrainian border at the end of March this year taking to quite a few people about it, hence my interest in it. I have never been to Syria so I have no idea what they think so I would probably stay out of that debate anyway. But your statement brings nothing to this debate regarding my own personal views as I might actually agree with you on Syria or I might not, I don’t know enough about it to form a view as of this debate.

Depends how you interpret that news item. Firstly there are countries where it is compulsory to vote. Secondly there maybe apartments or villages where people cannot vote in person at the polling booths. The best people to help administer this is probably going to be the military given how much public services are run down. Normally during an election authorised volunteers do it but they may have needed help.

At the moment I'm not seeing any evidence that people are being forced to say yes under duress.

And it appears Kiev will reject the referendum. Not sure it really matters what they think as they reject them declaring a Republic so it hardly matters if the Republic holds a referendum to join the Federation.

[mchughcb]

1 hour ago, timps said:

 

I spend a lot of time in Eastern Europe, I was very very near the Ukrainian border at the end of March this year taking to quite a few people about it.

Ukraine is a big place. Which border were you at, talking to people?

 

 

[oowee]

3 hours ago, mchughcb said:

I'm convinced that people are going to vote in a referendum for self determination after 8 years of bombing. Have you got any evidence to the contrary?

That quote should have been to mungler who wanted external observers.

So you post a picture from a news source that shows defence force lined up to vote. I post some videos of non mainstream journalists filming people voting. If you have any evidence of people being forced to vote against their will or voter fraud feel free to post it here.

Does not matter who votes for what. We know the result. 

10 minutes ago, mchughcb said:

Depends how you interpret that news item. Firstly there are countries where it is compulsory to vote. Secondly there maybe apartments or villages where people cannot vote in person at the polling booths. The best people to help administer this is probably going to be the military given how much public services are run down. Normally during an election authorised volunteers do it but they may have needed help.

At the moment I'm not seeing any evidence that people are being forced to say yes under duress.

 

Probably left, been raped or killed locked up for torture or hiding in a cellar. Your not going to see them on camera. 

4 hours ago, Gordon R said:

Got to love the videos, with happy smiling voters playing up to the camera. You would never know there is a war going on. 

If anyone is convinced by the videos, can I suggest you seek medical help.

🤣🤣🤣

[timps]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

would have thought being a unarmed  Russian soldier going about occupied Ukraine wouldn't be the best idea? 

Why would that be? some on here would have you believe that the entire inhabitants of these occupied areas are totally pro Russian so why the need to protect themselves(yes I was being facetious).😜

So basically you agree with me that the vote is a sham which was my only point as some believe it to be the same level of democracy as the brexit vote

 

1 hour ago, mchughcb said:

Depends how you interpret that news item. Firstly there are countries where it is compulsory to vote. Secondly there maybe apartments or villages where people cannot vote in person at the polling booths. The best people to help administer this is probably going to be the military given how much public services are run down. Normally during an election authorised volunteers do it but they may have needed help.

At the moment I'm not seeing any evidence that people are being forced to say yes under duress.

Which is a view you are certainly entitled to, as is mine “that you have to answer verbally and the soldier marks the answer on the sheet and keeps it” is not democratic in any anyway, especially as the solider is a foreign solider of occupation who you are telling to leave by your no vote.

 

1 hour ago, mchughcb said:

Ukraine is a big place. Which border were you at, talking to people?

Not too sure why the position of the border matters, as I said it only sparked my interest in whats going on in the region not that it was the only view in the area as I’m fully aware there are different views.

It was the polish border, this last time in March I flew into Wrocław (quite a lot of Ukrainian refugees) then on Zagan (large US army base there) then to  Rzeszów (refugees) and a day in Krakow (refugees) to get the flight back. I certainly got a view from polish and Ukrainian nationals which was untied in the hatred of Putin’s Russia, and the locals were very interested on my view on it as it was early days back then.

 

[henry d]

1 hour ago, mchughcb said:

Depends how you interpret that news item.

It does indeed. Apparently they need more than 50% of people to vote or it is void, voter turn out is generally under 50% across the Ukraine hence the forced voting. 

1 hour ago, oowee said:

We know the result. 

Can we have a sweepstake, I'm going for 130% will vote to leave the Ukraine 😉

[mchughcb]

Im not so sure that the soldiers are Russian. I'd hazard a guess they are militia from the LPR or DPR. 

[henry d]

1 minute ago, mchughcb said:

Im not so sure that the soldiers are Russian. I'd hazard a guess they are militia from the LPR or DPR. 

And that makes what kind of difference?

[Mungler]

6 minutes ago, henry d said:

And that makes what kind of difference?

Henry that makes the vote hunky dorey of course 😆

Democracy in full effect. In years to come the history books will look back on this referendum as the definition and embodiment of a free and fair vote… ah yes, Putin and democracy, the two just go hand in hand. 

11 minutes ago, henry d said:

Can we have a sweepstake, I'm going for 130% will vote to leave the Ukraine 😉

That made me laugh. It also reminded me of the black adder episode where they win the local election when the existing standing candidate ‘accidentally brutally stabbed himself in the stomach while shaving’.

 

Edited September 24, 2022 by Mungler

[mchughcb]

It does if people keep quoting foreign fighters going to people's houses forcing them to vote under duress.

Or it looks to me it could be local militia who are expected to be armed in a conflict zone helping out people who can't get to polling booths in person because they don't have enough authorised volunteers.

What's next, the BBC will tell me the Russians are continually shelling the nuclear powerstation they control because they want to create a false flag event every day for the last 4 weeks?

 

[Mungler]

1 minute ago, mchughcb said:

It does if people keep quoting foreign fighters going to people's houses forcing them to vote under duress.

Or it looks to me it could be local militia who are expected to be armed in a conflict zone helping out people who can't get to polling booths in person because they don't have enough authorised volunteers.

What's next, the BBC will tell me the Russians are continually shelling the nuclear powerstation they control because they want to create a false flag event every day for the last 4 weeks?

 

You are absolutely crackers 😆😆

I see the words on the screen and I can’t believe that anyone can actually believe what you do. 

[mchughcb]

Scotland wants its independence but most voted no in Brexit. 

Donbass wants its independence and most are going to vote for Urexit.

 

Fair enough.

[Newbie to this]

1 minute ago, mchughcb said:

Scotland wants its independence

Does it.