Putin announces 'military operation' in Ukraine.

[mchughcb]

8 hours ago, timps said:

 

But it’s a random guy on YouTube so must be true.🤔😀

Just type in “Patrick Lancaster fact check”  in google gives you all you need to know, he’s  been involved with staged propaganda, family move to Russia and wild conspiracy theories rather than independent reporting.

I think he is the modern day Lord Haw Haw.

I’m no fan of the Main Stream Media but pretty much everything no matter what side by random people on YouTube sell to a specific audience.

This model of journalism needs subscribers and/or crowdfunding to make money.  The only way is to set your channel up is with confirmation bias in mind for either side pro or against Putin.   

If you upset your core subscribers with independent balanced thoughts then watch your channel tank.

People who don’t need it as their primary income can be more independent but their channels don’t get the publicity. 

No problems you start quoting unbiased journalism behind a pay wall and get done for copywrite.

You first.

[mchughcb]

7 hours ago, Mungler said:

The silent majority slowly step forward and back into the thread having had enough of 100+ pages of Russian aggression loving nonsense 😆

Patrick Lancaster as the final straw - that fella is the modern day equivalent of Lord Haw Haw and anyone who punts him as factual or objective needs their bumps felt.

Feel free to post any alternative views of the referendum process from any source you like. 

[timps]

16 minutes ago, mchughcb said:

No problems you start quoting unbiased journalism behind a pay wall and get done for copywrite.

You first.

I did but you don’t like MSM news so pointless posting again. 

[welsh1]

32 minutes ago, mchughcb said:

Feel free to post any alternative views of the referendum process from any source you like. 

It's not a referendum, it's a sham of Putin's making ,everyone knows what the result will be,if you think they are fair and unbiased without people being forced to follow Putin's line then more fool you.

 

Stop being Putin's lacky apologist.

He invaded another country, killing people of that country.

[mchughcb]

38 minutes ago, timps said:

I did but you don’t like MSM news so pointless posting again. 

MSN isn't behind a pay wall.

8 minutes ago, welsh1 said:

It's not a referendum, it's a sham of Putin's making ,everyone knows what the result will be,if you think they are fair and unbiased without people being forced to follow Putin's line then more fool you.

 

Stop being Putin's lacky apologist.

He invaded another country, killing people of that country.

I get that you think it's a sham I'm just asking for evidence.

[mchughcb]

Well Ukraine is calling out all those countries that supplied observers.

https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2022/09/24/7368938/

[welsh1]

7 minutes ago, mchughcb said:

 

I get that you think it's a sham I'm just asking for evidence.

I don't think it's a sham, everyone knows it's a sham putin has invaded another country, he has killed people in that country and intends to kill a lot more, and you think they will be free and fair referendum.

Stop supporting a man who is killing people in a country he has invaded.

 

[timps]

4 minutes ago, mchughcb said:

MSN isn't behind a pay wall.

So only news that’s behind a pay wall is unbiased?

I’ve gone for media that you can see for free or paid by advertisers. Is it perfect or totally unbiased? Probably not but piece them together and you get a good outlook. 
 

so who’s palms do I have to grease to get  totally unbiased news behind this pay wall? 

 

[mchughcb]

51 minutes ago, welsh1 said:

I don't think it's a sham, everyone knows it's a sham putin has invaded another country, he has killed people in that country and intends to kill a lot more, and you think they will be free and fair referendum.

Stop supporting a man who is killing people in a country he has invaded.

 

I'm not supporting anybody,  I don't even have relatives there. Do you support NATO fighting China over Taiwan? Because uncle Joe is sleep walking into that one.

[mchughcb]

55 minutes ago, timps said:

So only news that’s behind a pay wall is unbiased?

I’ve gone for media that you can see for free or paid by advertisers. Is it perfect or totally unbiased? Probably not but piece them together and you get a good outlook. 
 

so who’s palms do I have to grease to get  totally unbiased news behind this pay wall? 

 

Ask yourself what MSN reporters are on the front line in Eastern Ukraine. Since the start of this conflict the mainstream media were reporting live from lviv. They might as well have been reporting from Poland about what was actually happening on the ground in East. They would have been booted out Lviv the minute they strayed from the narrative. Including utter tripe like the ghost of Kiev or that the snake island regiment said **** you before being blown up, whereas they quietly surrendered. And were released.

[12gauge82]

4 hours ago, mchughcb said:

MSN isn't behind a pay wall.

I get that you think it's a sham I'm just asking for evidence.

That's a bit like asking for evidence the earth is round, Common sense will tell you when you take all the evidence together, it's obvious. 

Even if Putin was intending to hold fair elections (which I'm absolutely sure he's not), how many Ukrainians will put a cross next to becoming part of Russia again out of fear of a Russian soldier asking them the question. 

Who is going to independently verify putin isn't going to stitch it up? 

[Mungler]

Even Reuwolf has stepped back from this one. Not even he will push at the door of Putin’s referendum being fair and democratic 😆

All these free thinkers and yet they can’t see past their own alternative narrative which has become it’s very own rhetoric. 

 

[Newbie to this]

3 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

That's a bit like asking for evidence the earth is round, Common sense will tell you when you take all the evidence together, it's obvious. 

Even if Putin was intending to hold fair elections (which I'm absolutely sure he's not), how many Ukrainians will put a cross next to becoming part of Russia again out of fear of a Russian soldier asking them the question. 

Who is going to independently verify putin isn't going to stitch it up? 

How many Ukrainians are left in the area, 50%, 30%, hardly a fair referendum, even if the voting isn't coerced.

No fair referendums can be held, it's as simple as that.

[mchughcb]

The notion that some referendum must hold up to your ideals of procedures or otherwise the results are invalid is one way of looking at life. Another way is that two oblasts that have been bombed for 8 years because they refused to accept the coupe d' etat,  of their elected government and chose to revolt,  nor submit probably bodes probably means the majority will throw their lot in with Russia. The other two oblasts I'm not so sure.

[oowee]

1 minute ago, mchughcb said:

The notion that some referendum must hold up to your ideals of procedures or otherwise the results are invalid is one way of looking at life. Another way is that two oblasts that have been bombed for 8 years because they refused to accept the coupe d' etat,  of their elected government and chose to revolt,  nor submit probably bodes probably means the majority will throw their lot in with Russia. The other two oblasts I'm not so sure.

There is simply no justification for this war. Even the Russians in Russia want out. Get real. 

The biggest financial disaster of our life time. 

[timps]

8 hours ago, mchughcb said:

Ask yourself what MSN reporters are on the front line in Eastern Ukraine. Since the start of this conflict the mainstream media were reporting live from lviv. They might as well have been reporting from Poland about what was actually happening on the ground in East. They would have been booted out Lviv the minute they strayed from the narrative. Including utter tripe like the ghost of Kiev or that the snake island regiment said **** you before being blown up, whereas they quietly surrendered. And were released.

The above doesn’t answer my question.

Which pay wall news agency should I be using to be getting the independent truth then?

Strangely enough the MSM have reported that the snake island soldiers are alive correcting the original reports.

The exact same for the ghost of Kiev, MSM reporting the truth about it now.

That’s the point of independent news, they report retractions when original news is found to be inaccurate or wrong.

Does your pay wall news articles report retractions or is it all correct first time no fog of war to contend with ?

[Penelope]

On 23/09/2022 at 18:02, Gordon R said:

It is a bit like the woke brigade, who ignore current slavery or slavery before this country was involved. They select a period of history which suits their purpose. 

Same situation here. Mungler has argued his case on the present time - which I agree with, but some want to rewind a few years to put Russia in a better light. Whatever went on hundreds of years ago or 20 years ago, doesn't make Putin less of a warmonger than he is.

Don Lemmon recently got a good education on this.

[welsh1]

8 hours ago, mchughcb said:

I'm not supporting anybody,  I don't even have relatives there. Do you support NATO fighting China over Taiwan? Because uncle Joe is sleep walking into that one.

Has he invaded the country and been killing the local population?

Just so we are all clear, Russia has invaded a neighbor and has been slaughtering the population.

If you are in any way trying to justify Putin's actions then you are wrong.

[mchughcb]

1 hour ago, oowee said:

There is simply no justification for this war. Even the Russians in Russia want out. Get real. 

The biggest financial disaster of our life time. 

Well war is the last course of action when all forms of diplomacy have broken down. To say there is no justification, ignoring the events that lead to the current situation is very strange.

28 minutes ago, timps said:

The above doesn’t answer my question.

Which pay wall news agency should I be using to be getting the independent truth then?

Strangely enough the MSM have reported that the snake island soldiers are alive correcting the original reports.

The exact same for the ghost of Kiev, MSM reporting the truth about it now.

That’s the point of independent news, they report retractions when original news is found to be inaccurate or wrong.

Does your pay wall news articles report retractions or is it all correct first time no fog of war to contend with ?

I'm not going to tell you want mainstream non free articles that are ripped off somewhere else you should get. You make up your own mind. What I am saying is if you want the Economist or the FT you are going to have to pay for it. Would I think that their analysis and reporting is a slightly better standard that MSN, probably yes. Would I say MSN is slightly better than the Daily Record, possibly.

[mchughcb]

1 hour ago, Newbie to this said:

How many Ukrainians are left in the area, 50%, 30%, hardly a fair referendum, even if the voting isn't coerced.

No fair referendums can be held, it's as simple as that.

I'll need to check that information, are you quoting before 2014 or before March 2022 or before September 2022?

[welsh1]

2 minutes ago, mchughcb said:

Well war is the last course of action when all forms of diplomacy have broken down. To say there is no justification, ignoring the events that lead to the current situation is very strange.

There is absolutely no justification for Putin to invade Ukraine if you think there is then you are supporting a despotic regime with a mentally unhinged leader.

Again just to be clear, Russia has crossed an international land border into another country with no justification, he has slaughtered the people of that country and continues to kill and maim the people of Ukraine.

If you agree with him or his invasion then you really have a very warped sense of what is right.

[Mungler]

Just now, welsh1 said:

There is absolutely no justification for Putin to invade Ukraine if you think there is then you are supporting a despotic regime with a mentally unhinged leader.

Again just to be clear, Russia has crossed an international land border into another country with no justification, he has slaughtered the people of that country and continues to kill and maim the people of Ukraine.

If you agree with him or his invasion then you really have a very warped sense of what is right.

This entirely.

And to suggest that diplomacy somehow broke down leans to suggest  that there was no alternative but to invade and start a war - which is of course pure nonsense.

And this is where the small details and the terminology is important; ‘special military operation’? There’s an old Denning case which paraphrases to ‘if it’s big, grey, got tusks, flappy ears and a trunk, it’s an elephant. You can call it what you like but it’s still an elephant’.

Here the repetition of a SMO (which we have been varying told was against Nazis, drug dealers or whatever) was always designed to hide an invasion and a war. I have always been critical of people that have propagated or over used SMO to define Putin’s invasion and a war because it shows they can be easily brainwashed into spreading an untruth. 

 

[mchughcb]

5 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

That's a bit like asking for evidence the earth is round, Common sense will tell you when you take all the evidence together, it's obvious. 

Even if Putin was intending to hold fair elections (which I'm absolutely sure he's not), how many Ukrainians will put a cross next to becoming part of Russia again out of fear of a Russian soldier asking them the question. 

Who is going to independently verify putin isn't going to stitch it up? 

Common sense that the earth is round, is actually not that intuitive at all, there were some thought experiments that had to occur before it was commonly accepted in the ancient world. Now the important point you have is while the procedure may be reasonably fair for voting, who does the counting is what matters and that was a quote from Stalin.

However, what I'm seeing is that the fact they are in a civil war, there is a good chance they will want to join the federation for continued support. It is entirely possible that they don't join the Russian federation, the Russians withdraw military support and the civil war continues.

10 minutes ago, welsh1 said:

There is absolutely no justification for Putin to invade Ukraine if you think there is then you are supporting a despotic regime with a mentally unhinged leader.

Again just to be clear, Russia has crossed an international land border into another country with no justification, he has slaughtered the people of that country and continues to kill and maim the people of Ukraine.

If you agree with him or his invasion then you really have a very warped sense of what is right.

Thank you for making it so black and white. Would you like me to take the blue pill or the red pill?

[Newbie to this]

9 minutes ago, mchughcb said:

I'll need to check that information, are you quoting before 2014 or before March 2022 or before September 2022?

The day of the referendums.

To be clear I do not know the percentage myself and very much doubt anyone does. But I'm pretty certain it will not be the same as before 'operation Ukraini freedom', be it from deaths or evacuation of refugees.

[Gordon R]

Quote

However, what I'm seeing is that the fact they are in a civil war, there is a good chance they will want to join the federation for continued support. It is entirely possible that they don't join the Russian federation, the Russians withdraw military support and the civil war continues.

The view from your padded cell must be very limited, Darwin Dave.