Putin announces 'military operation' in Ukraine.

[henry d]

1 hour ago, mchughcb said:

Its the distance from moscow from the border, not the border itself.

So he takes the Eastern oblasts rather than the northern...no, doesn't work. 

Stop being an apologist for a tyrant.

[Rewulf]

12 hours ago, Dave-G said:

Am I right in thinking its only despotic states that have their military do that silly exaggerated marching we saw on Putins special day today?

Not really , but its popularity waned after Germany used it in WW2 .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goose_step

[Mungler]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

Not really , but its popularity waned after Germany used it in WW2 .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goose_step

Did you look at the list of goose stepping countries? 😆

95% are countries where you really wouldn’t want to get locked up and expect a fair trial 😆

So in answer to the question posed, ‘broadly, yes’.

Edit

I just had another look at that list; more like 99% of countries 😆

Edited October 1, 2022 by Mungler

[Rewulf]

1 minute ago, Mungler said:

Did you look at the list of goose stepping countries? 😆

95% are countries where you really wouldn’t want to get locked up and expect a fair trial 😆

I did yes , one of them was Ukraine 

Im not sure it was 95% , but he did say , do ONLY despotic countries use it, and I did say not 'really'
But I take your point that many countries with poor human rights records ect , do still favour it.

[Dave-G]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

Not really , but its popularity waned after Germany used it in WW2 .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goose_step

Good info thanks, I note the British generally ridiculed it and mungler nails it. Even more despotic is Putins ceremonial soldiers have to follow him with their head like obedient boys rather than continue looking straight ahead - like we do in basic training and ceremonies. 

Edited October 1, 2022 by Dave-G

[Rewulf]

2 minutes ago, Dave-G said:

Good info thanks, I note the British generally ridiculed it and mungler nails it. Even more despotic is Putins ceremonial soldiers have to follow him with their head like obedient boys rather than continue looking straight ahead. 

Eyes right (or left) is fairly common on parade type marches, Ive not seen the video though to see if theyre doing anything weird 🤪

[Dave-G]

1 minute ago, Rewulf said:

Eyes right (or left) is fairly common on parade type marches, Ive not seen the video though to see if theyre doing anything weird 🤪

Yes, for the company salute.

[Mungler]

The darth Putin Twitter feed is brilliant 

[Mungler]

Evidence of the free and open media, in action in Russia.

Watch to the end when the line mysteriously drops out 😆

Pure comedy.

Anyone want to have another go at explaining how free, open and normal it is for everyone in Russia right now 😆😆 

Indeed with the passage of time a lot of the earlier musings seem like crackpot nonsense (which they always were) it’s just that with the passage of time the proof arrives. I still chuckle about the famous Russian tactical withdrawal and how low moral was in the Ukrainian army and how Zelensky would be overthrown by July. Some people need to keep a check on their media sources 😉

 

 

[henry d]

Nothing odd there, happens al....

[mchughcb]

Well Elon has stepped in. He's offered a twitter poll to see who wants to stay and who wants to leave and boy has zelensky gone spare.

[old'un]

A train operated by secretive nuclear division spotted in central Russia heading towards the front line in Ukraine.

Ukraine is taking ground to easily for my liking, is Putin pulling his troops back so he can launch a small scale nuclear attack?

[Gordon R]

Quote

Nothing odd there, happens al....

Nice one henry d.

[Rewulf]

55 minutes ago, mchughcb said:

Well Elon has stepped in. He's offered a twitter poll to see who wants to stay and who wants to leave and boy has zelensky gone spare.

Im not sure how that works , how would they know who actually lives there ?

I will say, it seems to have gone a little more media quiet on the err, Eastern front, since the annexation.
The only notable is the highly decorated, hot potato head David Petraeus , citing that the US would destroy ALL Russian ground troops if Putin used a nuke in Ukraine.
Me personally , Id call that a declaration of WW3 , for a act that obviously horrific and unjustified , but never the less , has nothing to do with the US or NATO.
Then theres some who STILL think this isnt a proxy war ! Beggars belief really.*
But then, thats why Petraeus doesnt hold any official duties in the armed forces since they kicked him out the CIA.
Even so , he doesnt need a job , as his multi million dollar portfolio of US weapon company shares has done very well lately....

There comes a time when even the most ardent Russian haters have to ask themselves some hard questions, why is Ukraine so important, that we are prepared to wreck our economies , and risk nuclear warfare ?
Yes its a noble cause , standing up to the aggressor and all that , but what happened to all those other countries that got steamrollered , genocided , murdered , raped....
Why didnt we tackle Serbia early on, and stop multiple massacres, ethnic cleansing, all happening before our eyes on the evening news ?
Africa , where do I start ?
Why didnt we do something in Rwanda, as a million people were butchered with machetes, men , women, children ?
Why didnt we step in and stop IS , despite the threat they posed worldwide ? A million armed men in Iraq with modern US weapons, armour and air support, stood by and watched maybe 50,000 terrorists with no training , driving about in 4 x 4s , take over a million square miles , and  several million pop plus cities over 2 countries.
Hard questions , but will likely be labelled 'whataboutery' , but its not, why are some countries wars more important than others , if we are using morality as our yardstick, surely all lives are as important as each other ?
Why is Ukraine the place where we are willing to go to the brink of annihilation ? 

No doubt we go back to the same boring accusations of 'apologist' or 'shill' , maybe 'what are we supposed to do , just let them take Ukraine ?'
THATS whataboutery, though , hows about , why didnt we do just that ?
Let Putin remove Ukraines government, put in the puppet type government that was there before, its not ideal , its not right , but no wasteland Ukraine, no tens of thousands of bodies littering the landscape, no economic misery for ordinary Ukrainians....Is it a case of this is my hill , and I will die on it ?

Ive asked this before , lets try again.
Bear in mind theres nothing left to sanction Russia with.
What if Putin announces that all NATO weaponry is to be removed from Ukraine forthwith, and no more sent ?
They have 72 hours to do it , or , hes going to put a small 5kt nuke in Maidan square, you cant stop it , it can be put into a plane launched hypersonic missile, theres no real defence for it.
How far are WE prepared to go , its not good asking Zelensky , he would see the whole world burned , as long as he doesnt give in to Russia.
And those of you who think Putin wouldnt do it , maybe you need to consider whether he really is mad or not ?

 

*What is the issue with the proxy war thing , does it somehow take blame away from Russia ?
Because I dont think it makes any difference to that ?

[Dave-G]

I'm inclined to agree - it's very likely NATO's hill... well young Biden's perhaps. Plus they don't want to be seen as achieving nothing like Afghanistan again so soon.

Edited October 4, 2022 by Dave-G

[Gordon R]

Rewulf - you can't have it both ways. The World stood by on many occasions - Pol Pot etc - and did little or nothing. We get criticised for our inaction.

Then we support Ukraine and get slagged off for that. Maybe the last straw.

Whatever happened in other countries, in another time, might well be awful, but how does that excuse Putin (not stepping into a civil war. or preventing atrocities) invading a country?

[oowee]

23 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

Rewulf - you can't have it both ways. The World stood by on many occasions - Pol Pot etc - and did little or nothing. We get criticised for our inaction.

Then we support Ukraine and get slagged off for that. Maybe the last straw.

Whatever happened in other countries, in another time, might well be awful, but how does that excuse Putin (not stepping into a civil war. or preventing atrocities) invading a country?

^^^^ This. It's in our backyard. 

[Mungler]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

Im not sure how that works , how would they know who actually lives there ?

I will say, it seems to have gone a little more media quiet on the err, Eastern front, since the annexation.
The only notable is the highly decorated, hot potato head David Petraeus , citing that the US would destroy ALL Russian ground troops if Putin used a nuke in Ukraine.
Me personally , Id call that a declaration of WW3 , for a act that obviously horrific and unjustified , but never the less , has nothing to do with the US or NATO.
Then theres some who STILL think this isnt a proxy war ! Beggars belief really.*
But then, thats why Petraeus doesnt hold any official duties in the armed forces since they kicked him out the CIA.
Even so , he doesnt need a job , as his multi million dollar portfolio of US weapon company shares has done very well lately....

There comes a time when even the most ardent Russian haters have to ask themselves some hard questions, why is Ukraine so important, that we are prepared to wreck our economies , and risk nuclear warfare ?
Yes its a noble cause , standing up to the aggressor and all that , but what happened to all those other countries that got steamrollered , genocided , murdered , raped....
Why didnt we tackle Serbia early on, and stop multiple massacres, ethnic cleansing, all happening before our eyes on the evening news ?
Africa , where do I start ?
Why didnt we do something in Rwanda, as a million people were butchered with machetes, men , women, children ?
Why didnt we step in and stop IS , despite the threat they posed worldwide ? A million armed men in Iraq with modern US weapons, armour and air support, stood by and watched maybe 50,000 terrorists with no training , driving about in 4 x 4s , take over a million square miles , and  several million pop plus cities over 2 countries.
Hard questions , but will likely be labelled 'whataboutery' , but its not, why are some countries wars more important than others , if we are using morality as our yardstick, surely all lives are as important as each other ?
Why is Ukraine the place where we are willing to go to the brink of annihilation ? 

No doubt we go back to the same boring accusations of 'apologist' or 'shill' , maybe 'what are we supposed to do , just let them take Ukraine ?'
THATS whataboutery, though , hows about , why didnt we do just that ?
Let Putin remove Ukraines government, put in the puppet type government that was there before, its not ideal , its not right , but no wasteland Ukraine, no tens of thousands of bodies littering the landscape, no economic misery for ordinary Ukrainians....Is it a case of this is my hill , and I will die on it ?

Ive asked this before , lets try again.
Bear in mind theres nothing left to sanction Russia with.
What if Putin announces that all NATO weaponry is to be removed from Ukraine forthwith, and no more sent ?
They have 72 hours to do it , or , hes going to put a small 5kt nuke in Maidan square, you cant stop it , it can be put into a plane launched hypersonic missile, theres no real defence for it.
How far are WE prepared to go , its not good asking Zelensky , he would see the whole world burned , as long as he doesnt give in to Russia.
And those of you who think Putin wouldnt do it , maybe you need to consider whether he really is mad or not ?

 

*What is the issue with the proxy war thing , does it somehow take blame away from Russia ?
Because I dont think it makes any difference to that ?

What a load of old guff. 

Russia is losing occupied towns at the rate of 2 an hour. The Ukrainians are winning and convincingly. Why stop them from repelling invaders from their own land.

Your argument boils down to ‘what if Putin uses nukes?’

Well he’s got them, he’s always had them and if he feels he has to use then because he doesn’t get his own way in Ukraine then why stop at Ukraine? We should immediately bend over and give him Finland and then why not Poland and maybe somewhere nice in Africa too. 

If he uses a tactical nuke in Ukraine, the world will never be the same again granted but I’ve never seen it work out for the better where a bully is appeased.

Now I wait for your musings on how Putin has some entitlement to Ukraine and to use nukes - he has the entitlement of any bullying warlord, nothing more.

What a mess, Putin’s war has become for him and the rest of the world. Love to see what the Chinese make of it though - they won’t be happy.

 

Edited October 4, 2022 by Mungler

[Rewulf]

8 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

Rewulf - you can't have it both ways. The World stood by on many occasions - Pol Pot etc - and did little or nothing. We get criticised for our inaction.

Then we support Ukraine and get slagged off for that. Maybe the last straw.

Whatever happened in other countries, in another time, might well be awful, but how does that excuse Putin (not stepping into a civil war. or preventing atrocities) invading a country?

For starters , I dont want or need it both ways, the question was , what makes Ukraine so special ?
Its a genuine question, is it proximity ? Im not aware of any deep economic ties ?
Why are the Ukrainians worthy of billions in military aid , when the Yugoslavians got nothing , amongst many other questions .

Ive said from the start, its less about saving Ukraine , that it is about about damaging Russia, this pans out , as Ukraine is half destroyed , with decades of economic woe in front of it, at best an unsteady ceasefire/truce, while Russia has taken considerable economic and reputational damage, but will recover far faster than Ukraine.
As far as the mission to damage Russia goes = Success.
But Ukraine did not get saved .

Finally , as I stated , its not about excusing Putin, its about whats happened , and whether it was all worth it.
When I say that , I also mean , was is it worth it so far , because its far from over, with Russia gearing up to have anther crack at it.
That means more death and destruction, more money , and more risk of scalation.

Im sure many Ukrainians think its all worth it to be free, but will they ever be ? They will still have Russia on their doorstep, with craters and unexploded ordnance littering their land , while a mountain of war debt looms over them.

13 minutes ago, oowee said:

^^^^ This. It's in our backyard. 

OK , but the former Yugoslavia , had 10 years of civil war , murder and mayhem, that was also (more) in our back yard ?
We stepped in eventually , but it could so easily have been nipped in the bud ?

2 minutes ago, Mungler said:

What a load of old guff. 

Good mature commentary as usual 

3 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Russia is losing occupied towns at the rate of 2 an hour. The Ukrainians are winning and convincingly. Why stop them from repelling invaders from their own land.

So what ?
The more land they take , the more their lines stretch, logistics extend, the exact issue the Russians had .
Except the Russians arent reliant on other countries to supply them arms and ammo.

 

5 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Your argument boils down to ‘what if Putin uses nukes?’

Well he’s got them, he’s always had them and if he feels he has to use then because he doesn’t get his own way in Ukraine then why stop at Ukraine? We should immediately bend over and give him Finland and then why not Poland and maybe somewhere nice in Africa too. 

If he uses a tactical nuke in Ukraine, the world will never be the same again granted but I’ve never seen it work out for the better where a bully is appeased.

Pretty much, now why dont you try answering the question I posed.
What would YOU do if the threat was made, put yourself in the position , the west cant really help you with this one.
Ill be honest , I hope it doesnt happen, but if hes mad and deranged like you say , then its a possible scenario, is it not ?

 

7 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Now I wait for your musings on how Putin has some entitlement to Ukraine and to use nukes - he has the entitlement of any bullying warlord, nothing more.

Why dont you keep to what Ive actually said , than what you WANT to hear.
Not once have I said , in this whole thread that Putin , or Russia is anyway , 'entitled' to Ukraine , or to use nukes.

 

9 minutes ago, Mungler said:

What a mess, Putin’s war has become for him and the rest of the world. Love to see what the Chinese make of it though - they won’t be happy.

What makes you think that they wont be happy, whatever money or weaponry gets poured out of the US into Ukraine , will not benefit the US in any way, and THAT benefits China.
The more involvement in Ukraine , the less resources they have for dealing with a possible Taiwan issue.

If the deal is weakening each other , China wins every time by not getting involved, why do think they havent backed Russia beyond buying oil/gas ?

[mchughcb]

Zelensky asks to be fast tracked to NATO this week. NATO says no. USA says we'll keep supplying you old weapons so be happy. 

I hope NATO is prepared to spend another 6.6 Trillion like the 20 year war on terror and live in the dark with cold showers.

or

The Russians say they can repair Nordstream 2 with Germany and they can go back to how it was before Covid. It will be interesting to see which way the Germans go because they are already nationalising their power companies and they are not going to bring on cheap energy anytime soon or they can pay a premium and get their LNG from the USA and lose their competitiveness against chinese manufacturing.

 

 

 

[oowee]

12 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

 

OK , but the former Yugoslavia , had 10 years of civil war , murder and mayhem, that was also (more) in our back yard ?
We stepped in eventually , but it could so easily have been nipped in the bud ?

 

So what ?
The more land they take , the more their lines stretch, logistics extend, the exact issue the Russians had .
Except the Russians arent reliant on other countries to supply them arms and ammo.

 

 

If the deal is weakening each other , China wins every time by not getting involved, why do think they havent backed Russia beyond buying oil/gas ?

Your right we should have stepped in. It was Major as PM and we needed someone with backbone like Blair or Thatcher. 

Russia are reliant on importing weapons. They have also run short of the tech they need for advanced weapons. I accept that they have vast stockpiles of stuff but they still have to get it to the war.

The difference with supply lines is UA are fighting at home. They are clearly more resourceful and have to worry a lot less about resistance fighters.

Unfortunately China does win but they have their own issues just now and it will make them think twice before they invade Taiwan.

 

 

[Gordon R]

Quote

For starters , I dont want or need it both ways, the question was , what makes Ukraine so special ?
Its a genuine question, is it proximity ? Im not aware of any deep economic ties ?
Why are the Ukrainians worthy of billions in military aid , when the Yugoslavians got nothing , amongst many other questions .

With respect Rewulf, I think you are making my case for me. Ukraine might be the last straw that broke the camel's back, whereby the West drew a line in the sand. That might or might not be the case, but none of that justifies Putin's invasion.

[mchughcb]

1 hour ago, Gordon R said:

Rewulf - you can't have it both ways. The World stood by on many occasions - Pol Pot etc - and did little or nothing. We get criticised for our inaction.

Then we support Ukraine and get slagged off for that. Maybe the last straw.

Whatever happened in other countries, in another time, might well be awful, but how does that excuse Putin (not stepping into a civil war. or preventing atrocities) invading a country?

Support? Not fast tracking Ukraine into NATO tells you how much real support there is in Europe.

And for NATO stepping into the Serbian civil war to end it "its okay when we do it".

[Gordon R]

Quote

 

Support? Not fast tracking Ukraine into NATO tells you how much real support there is in Europe.

And for NATO stepping into the Serbian civil war to end it "its okay when we do it".

 

mchughcb - I don't believe you can be fast tracked into NATO whilst there is a conflict going on. That would immediately bring NATO into a war with Russia.

I am unclear as to what twilight world you live in, but it seems a very bizarre and depressing place.

[mchughcb]

1 minute ago, Gordon R said:

With respect Rewulf, I think you are making my case for me. Ukraine might be the last straw that broke the camel's back, whereby the West drew a line in the sand. That might or might not be the case, but none of that justifies Putin's invasion.

Maybe, or Ukraine wanting to join NATO and those American's saying we are open to anybody, while Zelensky was talking about missile bases being installed

was the straw that broke the camels back with Russian security.

The Warsaw pact and the USSR doesn't exist anymore so why does NATO.

"Its okay when we do it".