Putin announces 'military operation' in Ukraine.

[welsh1]

57 minutes ago, mchughcb said:

There is no doubt that the Russians invaded Ukraine. Any other questions?

I am glad you admit that russia declared an act of war against ukraine by invading and killing and maiming the people of ukraine., breaking international laws.Ukraine is entitled to fight back by any means it deems necessary to repel the invading russian army.
 

54 minutes ago, Mungler said:

 

Once again we circle back to "bonkers".

To keep asserting (without deviation) that this is but a "special military operation" (and now with a national call up) and not a war and not an invasion shows that you are either an expert level troll, a card carrying Russian shill or nuts.

It is a brilliant demonstration though that you will unquestioningly accept Russian propaganda and alteration of facts and language - straight out of Animal Farm.

I would be intrigued for Rewulf's views on this aspect.

 

I'm going for 
 

 

[Mungler]

13 minutes ago, welsh1 said:

I'm going for 
 

 

 

A far bigger bag than that is needed.

 

[Rewulf]

3 hours ago, timps said:

If the protest didn’t start the coup or have anything to do with it then why did you bring them up in regards to my post then?

You started this latest rant by misquoting me (quite deliberately for I suppose dramatic intent) and now youre further misquoting me 

Lets start again, and absolutely none of this is heresay , its all agreed , and in the public domain.

The students started the Maidan PROTEST, they did this for various reasons, but predominantly , they wanted a more westernised Ukraine.
Ukraine has always been a divided country between east and west , and the fact that western Ukraine wanted MORE west, and eastern Ukraine wanted MORE Russia, is still largely glossed over, as the narrative doesnt work with that fact.

I said the students wanted McDs and Netflix , as a way of explaining what is important to student age kids , they want the modern world they see on TV and internet, the only problem is , Ukraine has been crushingly poor for , well,  ever...
When an opportunity came to be part of the modern , western world , they didnt want to let go of it.
And theres nothing wrong with that.

When Yanukovic decided enough was enough , he sent the police in to break it all up , he did promise some reforms, but the ball was rolling , and other eyes could see a prize in their grasp.

The far right has long had a foothold in Ukrainian politics, their football hooligan elements (Ultras) are well known for their brutal violence, and there are many political parties that engage in neo nazi idealism.

https://www.slow-journalism.com/long-reads/age-of-the-ultras

Once these groups entered the fray, the whole ideal of Euromaidan changed, the students, mostly went home, this wasnt the battle they envisaged, and they were out of their depth.
The police responded to the new levels of violence, the death toll went up, and it often escalated into firefights.
When the protesters became better armed , the police , outnumbered withdrew, and the whole thing turned into an armed coup.
Yanukovic fled, and the RADA , fearing for their very lives, declared the government null and void.

I hope that explains it to your satisfaction.

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

I would be intrigued for Rewulf's views on this aspect.

Youve never heard me call it a special military operation....

However , there is a precedent for why Putin hasnt just called it a war, or invasion.

"On conducting a special military operation" (Russian: О проведении специальной военной операции) was a televised address by Russian president Vladimir Putin on 24 February 2022, immediately preceding the invasion of Ukraine, addressed to the citizens of Russia and Ukraine and the military personnel of the Armed Forces of Ukraine and the Russian Armed Forces. The speech was intended to sway public opinion^[opinion] by describing Putin's motivations and goals for the operation. To justify the invasion, Putin falsely^{[citation needed]} claimed that Ukraine was a neo-Nazi state and made references to Article 51 of the UN Charter, which permits military actions in self-defense.

 

Where have we heard of this kind of 'excuse' before western invasions took place.
Putin probably thought , 'Whats good for the goose' ?

[mchughcb]

52 minutes ago, welsh1 said:

I am glad you admit that russia declared an act of war against ukraine by invading and killing and maiming the people of ukraine., breaking international laws.Ukraine is entitled to fight back by any means it deems necessary to repel the invading russian army.
 

I'm going for 
 

 

 

I never called it a war. Nor did Russia declare an act of war.

Did you bother to read the panama invasion link? There is a difference between the state declaring war and the executive ordering a military intervention. Go and read the legality in the link to the US panama invasion.

[amateur]

3 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

Starting to wonder if PW really does have a Russian bot 😳😂

I am sure that there are two

[mchughcb]

Pretty much a throw away line these days, bot seems to overtaken racist.

Enoch Powell would be turning in his grave how easily people can get a label without working hard for it.

[welsh1]

17 minutes ago, mchughcb said:

 

I never called it a war. Nor did Russia declare an act of war.

Did you bother to read the panama invasion link? There is a difference between the state declaring war and the executive ordering a military intervention. Go and read the legality in the link to the US panama invasion.

You admitted russia invaded Ukraine, that is an act of war, words like "intervention" and "special operation" don't hide the fact it was an act of war to cross into another country and start killing its population.
Russia doesn't have to delclare it a war, international law tells us that it was an act of war.

Putin tried to hide behind "neo nazis" as an excuse, this has been shown to be false. He went to war.

Quack Quack.

 

 

[mchughcb]

So after all that you didn't bother to read the linkin the panama invasion?

Normally a naval blockade is enough for a country to declare war. Soon it will be 8 rounds of evonomic sanctions. Are you prepared for the UK to declare war on Russia?

[Rewulf]

12 minutes ago, welsh1 said:

words like "intervention" and "special operation" don't hide the fact it was an act of war to cross into another country and start killing its population.
Russia The US doesn't have to delclare it a war, international law (and the UN) tells us that it was an act of war.

 Putin  Bush tried to hide behind  'neo nazis' WMDs as an excuse, this has been shown to be false. He went to war.

Glad we got that cleared up about Iraq , cheers !

[timps]

 

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

You started this latest rant by misquoting me

Ah it’s a rant again, glad I had that one covered, strange how your lengthy posts with personal insults are never rants. 🙄😜 

I love the irony but I didn’t miss quote you, its what you actually wrote and how it read regardless of what you meant, but I digress.

This was all in response to my original post:-

"A coup happened because the people of Ukraine willed it to happen, NATO could not engineer it without those people."

I stand by what I said, the west cannot engineer a coup unless the population want change.

You seemed to disagree or as you prefer differed to this notion.

Therefore, I tried to clarify your view on this with

“You can’t buy a coup if no one is prepared to fight for it, just look at  Afghanistan”

Again, you seemed to disagree or differ  intimating  that all supporting this coup did it for money paid by the USA to protest and carry out a paid coup and for no other reason.

I do struggle to understand what point or stance you are taking, whether you are disagreeing or agreeing as you seem to change as the post count rises.

My point is that the Ukrainian people did not want to go back to Russian control and are prepared to fight to try and keep it that way. They felt that way for a variety of reasons and a variety of different factions (students and Nazi's included), and even if they were funded by the USA to protest, this did not alter their view or aims which was/is to be free from Russian control.  

Edited October 12, 2022 by timps

[millrace]

If ever a topic needed closed this has to be it......!!!!!!

Talk about going round in circles and getting nowhere!!

[mchughcb]

Action is going to hot up in the next few weeks. There is going to be plenty to talk about as we head into winter.

[Rewulf]

27 minutes ago, timps said:

Ah it’s a rant again, glad I had that one covered, strange how your lengthy posts with personal insults are never rants. 🙄😜 

Pretty sure youve used both personal insults , and the rant word fairly frequently, but I lose track 😄

28 minutes ago, timps said:

I love the irony but I didn’t miss quote you, its what you actually wrote and how it read regardless of what you meant, but I digress.

You did misquote, and the fact you say ' Its what I actually wrote' which I didnt, and then in the same sentence , its 'how it read ,regardless f what I meant' !
Hilarious.
Find me the sentence where I said 'The coup was started by students who wanted Netflix anjd Mc Ds'  

 

31 minutes ago, timps said:

This was all in response to my original post:-

"A coup happened because the people of Ukraine willed it to happen, NATO could not engineer it without those people."

I stand by what I said, the west cannot engineer a coup unless the population want change.

You seemed to disagree or as you prefer differed to this notion.

There you go with NATO again....

Of course the population wanted change, they were still living in 1960s USSR standards of living, corruption was rife, and they wanted what WE have.
So when someone comes along and says heres some money, buy yourself a burger amd live the western dream, why wouldnt they want more of that ?
The problem was ,SOME of the population didnt get the free burger, as the snouts in Kiev hoovered up the money , Ukraine style, so they turned to the east for support.

36 minutes ago, timps said:

Again, you seemed to disagree or differ intermating that all supporting this coup did if for money paid by the USA to protest and carry out a paid coup and for no other reason.

Absolute misquote , never said that . AT ALL.

 

37 minutes ago, timps said:

I do struggle to understand what point or stance you are taking, whether you are disagreeing or agreeing as you seem to change as the post count rises.

Thats probably because all you do is waiut for me to post something so you can disagree with it, most of the time without even reading it properly !
Youre on to a loser before you start.

 

39 minutes ago, timps said:

My point is that the Ukrainian people did not want to go back to Russian control and are prepared to fight to try and keep it that way. They felt that way for a variety of reasons and a variety of different factions (students and Nazi's included), and even if they were funded by the USA to protest, this did not alter their view or aims which was/is to be free from Russian control.  

Failed at the first point.
SOME of the Ukrainian people did not want to go back to Russian control, have you not grasped yet what this is all about ?
If there was NO support for Russia in Ukraine, none of this would have happened.
But everyone seems to conveniently forget that there is, as, again , it doesnt work with the narrative.

Simple acid test , look for western condemnation of Ukrainian attacks and atrocities on separatist areas prior to the invasion...Good luck with that.
Now turn it round and see the results.

The west doesnt even SEE the separatists, or their argument.

Similarly , the west never saw the Afghans who fought against us , they were 'insurgents' 
Yet they were native Afghans who had had their country invaded by foreign powers, what was their rights ?
They were nothing , just targets.

I once had a similar argument on another forum, and compared Ukraine to Iraq and Afghan, one bloke said 'Those hairy savages, who cares about them ?'
Is this why its going to be called 'whataboutery ' ? Again ~?

[Mungler]

55 minutes ago, mchughcb said:

So after all that you didn't bother to read the linkin the panama invasion?

Normally a naval blockade is enough for a country to declare war. Soon it will be 8 rounds of evonomic sanctions. Are you prepared for the UK to declare war on Russia?

 

What are you blathering on about? Panama, Iraq, whatever. Irrelevant. Historic events do not predetermine the here and now or alter the Oxford English dictionary.

Regardless of whatever whataboutery you wish to refer to now, the brass tacks remain - rolling tanks over the border (indeed the majority of borders by compass direction) of a democratic sovereign nation, murdering it's citizens and seeking to occupy foreign territory is the dictionary definition of an invasion and an act of war. That's a fact.

Fill your boots with special military operation, Panama, Iraq, WMD, pyramids and lizard people.

It's only a special military operation because Putin said so, and of course that's good enough for you and your inquiring mind....  challenge MSM, challenge NATO direction, challenge everything but Russian propaganda and anything Putin says or does. You are brainwashed.

 

[welsh1]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

Glad we got that cleared up about Iraq , cheers !

Were we talking about iraq? if you want to have a discussion on the rights and wrongs of that then start a new thread.Nothing like trying to change the subject when you know it's true is there?

In the mean time lets talk about what this thread is about, the illegal invasion of ukraine by russia which is an act of war.

 

 

[Rewulf]

17 minutes ago, welsh1 said:

Were we talking about iraq? if you want to have a discussion on the rights and wrongs of that then start a new thread.Nothing like trying to change the subject when you know it's true is there?

In the mean time lets talk about what this thread is about, the illegal invasion of ukraine by russia which is an act of war.

Well at least you didnt call it whataboutery. 

[timps]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

Pretty sure youve used both personal insults

Nope I might criticize your view but not you personally

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

Find me the sentence where I said 'The coup was started by students who wanted Netflix anjd Mc Ds'

It is quoted below and before you try to argue it is generally accepted Maidan was the start of the coup regardless if any others joined later.  

22 hours ago, Rewulf said:

The students that started Maidan, had never known anything different , they wanted McDonalds and Netflix ,

 

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

There you go with NATO again....

Of course I mentioned NATO again, I was quoting the original post of mine to stonepark that you decided to comment on that started this, That’s why it’s in quotations and italics...  please keep up

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

Thats probably because all you do is waiut for me to post something so you can disagree with it,

This really makes me laugh, I think I have quoted you once first this year, I purposely try not to, I keep telling you this, you are the one who keeps quoting my posts to other people as soon as I post them, even on other threads. As I have said once I get a notification that you have quoted me I will defend my position. I’ve taken this stance since 2021 when I decided it was pointless debating with you in the COVID thread. So, I take it you can quote me and I’m not allowed to respond?

This post is again pointless, I’m not the only one that thinks your posts don’t always make sense or are contradictory, it just seems I am the one drawn in to it publicly by you commenting on my posts to others.

This last one  was started by you commenting on my post to stonepark, the previous one was started by you commenting on a post by me not aimed at anyone in particular.

As I keep saying if you don’t want to engage with me don’t quote my posts, if you do quote them, which you are entitled to do, then expect a reply if I don't agree . Its not difficult to understand that you are the instigator but don't like anyone disagreeing with you.

[mchughcb]

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

 

What are you blathering on about? Panama, Iraq, whatever. Irrelevant. Historic events do not predetermine the here and now or alter the Oxford English dictionary.

Regardless of whatever whataboutery you wish to refer to now, the brass tacks remain - rolling tanks over the border (indeed the majority of borders by compass direction) of a democratic sovereign nation, murdering it's citizens and seeking to occupy foreign territory is the dictionary definition of an invasion and an act of war. That's a fact.

Fill your boots with special military operation, Panama, Iraq, WMD, pyramids and lizard people.

It's only a special military operation because Putin said so, and of course that's good enough for you and your inquiring mind....  challenge MSM, challenge NATO direction, challenge everything but Russian propaganda and anything Putin says or does. You are brainwashed.

 

Most law is based on historical precedent going right back to the Magna Carta and beyond.

Basing all legal rights on whatever you decide today is not feasible nor is how the laws have evolved for a millennia. Ignore at your peril.

[Dave-G]

This IS getting a bit 'he said' for the sake of point scoring in the school yard lads.

All its doing is padding out the thread with minor so what stuff. Do put ya handbags away please. 

[mchughcb]

42 minutes ago, welsh1 said:

Were we talking about iraq? if you want to have a discussion on the rights and wrongs of that then start a new thread.Nothing like trying to change the subject when you know it's true is there?

In the mean time lets talk about what this thread is about, the illegal invasion of ukraine by russia which is an act of war.

 

 

When the UN decides to send troops to another country like Somalia. Has the UN declared war  on Somalia? Or is the invasion a special military operation which results in 1500 dead?

[Rewulf]

25 minutes ago, timps said:

It is quoted below and before you try to argue it is generally accepted Maidan was the start of the coup regardless if any others joined later.  

I think not.
Maidan was a student protest originally, do you think they envisaged a coup? 

Im not sure even the US,  feeding money into it, envisaged the result TBH.

26 minutes ago, timps said:

So, I take it you can quote me and I’m not allowed to respond?

Its a free country , fill your boots....

26 minutes ago, timps said:

This post is again pointless, I’m not the only one that thinks your posts don’t always make sense or are contradictory, it just seems I am the one drawn in to it publicly by you commenting on my posts to others.

Then why do you keep making the same mistake ?
Is it a last word thing ?

27 minutes ago, timps said:

As I keep saying if you don’t want to engage with me don’t quote my posts, if you do quote them, which you are entitled to do, then expect a reply if I don't agree . Its not difficult to understand that you are the instigator but don't like anyone disagreeing with you.

I wouldnt engage if I didnt find it entertaining , and interesting, I suspect you are similar.

[welsh1]

21 minutes ago, mchughcb said:

When the UN decides to send troops to another country like Somalia. Has the UN declared war  on Somalia? Or is the invasion a special military operation which results in 1500 dead?

Why are you talking about other stuff?, this thread is about the illegal invasion of ukraine by russia which is an act of war, as i have said to others if you want to start a thread about other conflicts and the rigths and wrongs then go and do so, but don't try and justify the unjustifiable war that putin has started, killing and maimimg innocent civilians just for his own glory.

[Stonepark]

Just now, welsh1 said:

In the mean time lets talk about what this thread is about, the illegal invasion of ukraine by russia which is an act of war.
 

Let's talk about the illegal coup in Ukraine and the fact that since the coup took place Ukraine as it was, have not had a legally and democratically elected government of the people and as such the "separatist areas" were equally sovereign to the current "Ukranian Government" and that the invasion that the Ukranian Government had been undertaking by undertaking an illegal incursion of those seperatist areas in 2014 to 2022 is a war by the above definition.

Where was the condemnation and sanctions for the Ukranian Governments ethnic cleansing it was undertaking with its Nazi military units when they invaded the seperatist areas and what did the West do to stop them.... Nothing because it suited them.

Ukraine Government is not in a position to claim sovereignty over the separatist regions and the MSM\West knows it, but was hoping that by providing training and arms it would allow Ukranian Government to take back those areas by force and that Russia would stand aside.

As far as most of Russia, most of East Ukraine and more than a few countries around the world,  the Ukranian Government is nothing more than a totalitarian (bans opposition parties and free speech) terrorist (assassinationions, Nazi cleansing killings, bio labs) corrupt (Biden junior and others getting £millions and £billions) bullies supported by money and arms from the West run by the definition of a "Tinpot" cocaine fueled dictator and his handlers\cronies.

Zelensky and his government makes Assad, Gadaffii, and Sadam look almost normal. At least the latter were generally fighting religious fanatics within their country (and whilst not nice but could be seen from a standpoint of trying to better their country as well as their families), whilst Zelensky is simply doing the bidding of his Western handlers and his Nazi supporters for money at the end of the day.....

 

[Dave-G]

26 minutes ago, Stonepark said:

Let's talk about the illegal coup in Ukraine and the fact that since the coup took place Ukraine as it was, have not had a legally and democratically elected government of the people and as such the "separatist areas" were equally sovereign to the current "Ukranian Government" and that the invasion that the Ukranian Government had been undertaking by undertaking an illegal incursion of those seperatist areas in 2014 to 2022 is a war by the above definition.

Where was the condemnation and sanctions for the Ukranian Governments ethnic cleansing it was undertaking with its Nazi military units when they invaded the seperatist areas and what did the West do to stop them.... Nothing because it suited them.

Ukraine Government is not in a position to claim sovereignty over the separatist regions and the MSM\West knows it, but was hoping that by providing training and arms it would allow Ukranian Government to take back those areas by force and that Russia would stand aside.

As far as most of Russia, most of East Ukraine and more than a few countries around the world,  the Ukranian Government is nothing more than a totalitarian (bans opposition parties and free speech) terrorist (assassinationions, Nazi cleansing killings, bio labs) corrupt (Biden junior and others getting £millions and £billions) bullies supported by money and arms from the West run by the definition of a "Tinpot" cocaine fueled dictator and his handlers\cronies.

Zelensky and his government makes Assad, Gadaffii, and Sadam look almost normal. At least the latter were generally fighting religious fanatics within their country (and whilst not nice but could be seen from a standpoint of trying to better their country as well as their families), whilst Zelensky is simply doing the bidding of his Western handlers and his Nazi supporters for money at the end of the day.....

 

Sounds about right to me - and why I feel both sides are about as bad as the other when the long term is taken into consideration, but I admit to not knowing the extent of Ukraine's attacks on the Donbass  separatists from 2008.

Edited October 12, 2022 by Dave-G

[Mungler]

The Kremlin must be empty, given that they’re all out and on here 😆

I am amazed that all these alternative deep thinkers can’t think beyond what Putin has told them to think, what language to now use and all the Russian propaganda.

Even on the subject of whether there’s a war going on we get repeated Kremlin speak and not the physical truth as it presents. Total brainwashing.

Ask a Ukrainian refugee though - they are probably best placed to comment and I’ll bet they’ll mention the invasion, murder of their populous, the Russian occupation and war 😆

Its only Putin who insists on not calling an invasion and occupation anything but a war.

Absoluteky bonkers. George Orwell would be proud. 

27 minutes ago, Stonepark said:

Let's talk about the illegal coup in Ukraine and the fact that since the coup took place Ukraine as it was, have not had a legally and democratically elected government of the people and as such the "separatist areas" were equally sovereign to the current "Ukranian Government" and that the invasion that the Ukranian Government had been undertaking by undertaking an illegal incursion of those seperatist areas in 2014 to 2022 is a war by the above definition.

Where was the condemnation and sanctions for the Ukranian Governments ethnic cleansing it was undertaking with its Nazi military units when they invaded the seperatist areas and what did the West do to stop them.... Nothing because it suited them.

Ukraine Government is not in a position to claim sovereignty over the separatist regions and the MSM\West knows it, but was hoping that by providing training and arms it would allow Ukranian Government to take back those areas by force and that Russia would stand aside.

As far as most of Russia, most of East Ukraine and more than a few countries around the world,  the Ukranian Government is nothing more than a totalitarian (bans opposition parties and free speech) terrorist (assassinationions, Nazi cleansing killings, bio labs) corrupt (Biden junior and others getting £millions and £billions) bullies supported by money and arms from the West run by the definition of a "Tinpot" cocaine fueled dictator and his handlers\cronies.

Zelensky and his government makes Assad, Gadaffii, and Sadam look almost normal. At least the latter were generally fighting religious fanatics within their country (and whilst not nice but could be seen from a standpoint of trying to better their country as well as their families), whilst Zelensky is simply doing the bidding of his Western handlers and his Nazi supporters for money at the end of the day.....

 

 

Zelensky rules by consensus. See all the Ukranians fighting and dying for their country and to force out the occupying Russian invaders?