Putin announces 'military operation' in Ukraine.

[welsh1]

"In the 1980s Daly was a member of the Labour Party as a teenager but was expelled alongside other members after being accused of being Trotskyists infiltrating the party using the tactic of entryism. She was subsequently a founding member of "Militant Labour", later known as the Socialist Party"

"Daly has attended protests supporting Algirdas Paleckis, a politician convicted of spying on behalf of Russia, and attended court when Paleckis' appeal was being heard."

 

"In late January 2022, Daly described the Russian troop build up on the Ukrainian border as being "clearly defensive" and believed there is "no evidence that Russia has any desire to invade Ukraine, it would be of no benefit to them".^[50] In February 2022, shortly before the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, Daly (alongside Mick Wallace) was one of 52 MEPs who voted against providing €1.2 billion in loans to Ukraine, against 598 MEPs in favour.^[51] On 2 March 2022, she was one of 13 MEPs who voted against a resolution condemning the Russian invasion of Ukraine.^[52] Daly later stated that she opposed Russian aggression against Ukraine and had voted against the resolution because it also stated its support for NATO and had called for weapons to be sent to Ukraine.^[53] Russian state media subsequently played clips of her criticizing the EU response to the Russian invasion"

"In July 2022, in light of statements she made on the Russian invasion of Ukraine, Daly was added to a list of public figures accused of spreading Russian propaganda by the Security Service of Ukraine. Daly responded by accusing Ukraine's government of carrying out a "smear campaign."^[56]. In October 2022, Daly abstained in a European Parliament vote on a measure that sought to end recognition of Russian travel documents issued in occupied foreign regions"

[henry d]

1 hour ago, mchughcb said:

Do you honestly believe that? The sam reports say Sweden's speed cameras have Nikon cameras and the kamikaze drones have Canon. But they can't explain why they are being stolen.

 

 

I would imagine that time will tell because it will take time to fit them into the drones. There has to be a time lag, they don't disappear from the cameras one day and turn up in the Ukraine the next. Second thing to consider is why so many and as there is little resale value so why steal them and why so many? If it was just enraged speeders why not just trash the whole thing, in Scotland the usual way was an angle grinder or hang a tyre over the arm, fill with petrol and flambé until crisp.

[Rewulf]

18 minutes ago, welsh1 said:

"In July 2022, in light of statements she made on the Russian invasion of Ukraine, Daly was added to a list of public figures accused of spreading Russian propaganda by the Security Service of Ukraine.

Much like these honourable pages , those who dont change their avatar to the UKR flag , call Russians orcs , and shout 'Slava Ukraini !' on command then ?
Or Mr Musk , who after supplying Ukraine with half a billion dollars worth of kit, got called a Kremlin propaganderist  after suggesting a vote for Donbass ?

Its a sad thing when there is no middle ground , and youre either with them or against them.
I would imagine it was like that in Germany before WW2.

[welsh1]

5 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

 

Its a sad thing when there is no middle ground , and youre either with them or against them.
I would imagine it was like that in Germany before WW2.

She is to put it simply a russian supporter through and through, she has no intention of looking at the middle ground.

We could ask this mother and her twins to try and see both sides of the argument, maybe they will then see that russia invading their country and bombing their houses is for the greater good, after all what's a few missing limbs when mr putin will be in charge.

 

Just imagine if russia had not invaded ukraine, just imagine this mother and her twins living a happy peaceful life with all their limbs.

[Mungler]

20 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Seeing as the thread has degenerated into petty insults, accusations of insanity , drug taking , and comparing how much we all get paid for working for foreign powers, lets keep it open as long as possible and let everyone know how responsible UK firearms owners are 

I do have one , maybe two questions for @Mungler , The Dark One has taken a particular interest in you , and because he cant get an internet connection in his underground torture chamber, hes asked me to step in.
How is it you were so distrustful of the wests governments and policies during the covid years, making many posts about lies ect (which I fully agreed with) then when Ukraine happens, those same governments can be completely trusted with their policies and response ?
Also the US has an undisputable track record, going back to the 50s , of meddling in foreign regimes across the flat earth globe, and seeking to either mould them to their will , or just simply smash them and install their own puppets.
Yet you flatly refuse to accept they had anything to do with Ukraines collapse in 2014.

The Dark Lord expects an answer, or you can avoid open windows for life, the evil of Mordor cast a very long shadow... 😄

 

Easy stuff. 

1. Once we got over the original hysteria Covid always looked like BS to me.  I read and watched everything and made my own assessment. I also got to see the effects of lockdown on kids, businesses, (authoritarian) government and across the whole spectrum and not just what it might do to the elderly and near death. I also read everything there was on the ONS and was able to make my own assessment of risk. It quickly became clear that the social and economic effects of a lock down massively outweighed the risk and effect of the Covid virus in all its forms.

However, my balance also comes with taking all 4 jabs and the flu jab every year unlike the rest of my family. Why? I’ve had all the children I ever will have and having got this far I have little to fear from a vaccine.

2. My stance on Ukraine is both moral and practical. I was particularly taken by the plight of the normal mass of Ukrainian people - not the purported nazis, drug dealers or whatever other nonsense the Kremlin was peddling. Normal Ukrainian families woke up one day and had to flee their homes with what they could carry. These normal people were then shelled, captured, tortured and murdered, their cities flattened. And for what? There is no straight answer from the Kremlin and whatever answer the Kremlin offers up it will not justify what has come to pass.

These normal Ukrainian people have rallied and fought off an occupying invader. Out of everyone, if there was a way to find middle ground with the Russians it would be via the Ukrainian people - they could easily down tools, stop fighting and that would be the end. However, even from my arm chair and despite what the Kremlin says it’s clear they do not welcome Russia into their borders and I think they have every entitlement to defend and repeal the invaders from their country and to ask help from whoever will offer it.

The factor in ‘need’. There was no need, there was no earth shattering event or change, it was Putin who decided to invade. Right up to the moment it happened the world thought he wouldn’t because there was no need and the stakes were high - invasion and war in mainland Europe. Indeed, with all of the other options on the table and he chose mass invasion, mass murder and a war (with all the knock on effects).

Then we come to ‘outcome’. Putin can’t win this, can’t gain anything from this, is losing every which way and yet he continues, doubling down on the already proven daft decision to start a war. He will plunge his own country into darkness and excommunication from the bits of the world his people would otherwise want to be part of.

As for what about the Yanks? Seriously? ‘Oh look back at the US disastrously invading countries illegally and murdering the civilian populations’. Hello, that is precisely what Putin is doing here and now. Nobody wants to say it out loud but the best the pro Russians can muster is ‘well if the yanks did it, then we can’t give Putin a hard time for doing it’. That is bonkers on so many different levels I don’t even know where to start.

Let’s assume the Yanks have been meddling in Ukraine? So what? The Russians can meddle back. They can look at all the other options available to then other than invasion and war. Look at the economic cost and loss of life now, as opposed to whatever was / was not going on a year ago. Is anyone in a better place right now?

This is all plastered over these pages already. Interestingly though the content of the last couple of days has tied it all together for me.

And McHughCB still can’t see the one person responsible for this disaster as doing anything wrong 😆

 

[mchughcb]

1 hour ago, welsh1 said:

Ridiculous, why would anyone want to steal a nikon camera?

 

Canon are the ones they use and are made in China. China is still trading with Russia. This article makes no sense.

[welsh1]

Just now, mchughcb said:

Canon are the ones they use and are made in China. China is still trading with Russia. This article makes no sense.

I mean a nikon camera, why would anyone want one?

[Rewulf]

40 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Easy stuff. 

1. Once we got over the original hysteria Covid always looked like BS to me.  I read and watched everything and made my own assessment. I also got to see the effects of lockdown on kids, businesses, (authoritarian) government and across the whole spectrum and not just what it might do to the elderly and near death. I also read everything there was on the ONS and was able to make my own assessment of risk. It quickly became clear that the social and economic effects of a lock down massively outweighed the risk and effect of the Covid virus in all its forms.

However, my balance also comes with taking all 4 jabs and the flu jab every year unlike the rest of my family. Why? I’ve had all the children I ever will have and having got this far I have little to fear from a vaccine.

Agreed on all points , similar stance. 

2. My stance on Ukraine is both moral and practical. I was particularly taken by the plight of the normal mass of Ukrainian people - not the purported nazis, drug dealers or whatever other nonsense the Kremlin was peddling. Normal Ukrainian families woke up one day and had to flee their homes with what they could carry. These normal people were then shelled, captured, tortured and murdered, their cities flattened. And for what? There is no straight answer from the Kremlin and whatever answer the Kremlin offers up it will not justify what has come to pass.

These normal Ukrainian people have rallied and fought off an occupying invader. Out of everyone, if there was a way to find middle ground with the Russians it would be via the Ukrainian people - they could easily down tools, stop fighting and that would be the end. However, even from my arm chair and despite what the Kremlin says it’s clear they do not welcome Russia into their borders and I think they have every entitlement to defend and repeal the invaders from their country and to ask help from whoever will offer it.

The factor in ‘need’. There was no need, there was no earth shattering event or change, it was Putin who decided to invade. Right up to the moment it happened the world thought he wouldn’t because there was no need and the stakes were high - invasion and war in mainland Europe. Indeed, with all of the other options on the table and he chose mass invasion, mass murder and a war (with all the knock on effects).

Agreed on most points, the plight of ALL the Ukrainian people is a tragedy, but you seem to miss out on the murders, rapes and tortures of the Donbass separatists, perpetuated by their own countrymen, and I think this is important.
The simple fact that those who didnt want to move away from Russia have no voice in the west is very telling.
If the roles were switched, and the separatists were pro west, fighting against a pro Russian government, they would have a voice.
You also mention 'no earth shattering event or change' Yet Putin suddenly decided to invade ?
You have never come back with any coherent argument why this suddenly happened, I would say something DID happen, that we are not privy to.
Saying that hes mad , bad , or a Peter the great fancier , who wants Ukraine soooo bad, is pure lazyness, and just agreeing with MSM speculation.

Then we come to ‘outcome’. Putin can’t win this, can’t gain anything from this, is losing every which way and yet he continues, doubling down on the already proven daft decision to start a war. He will plunge his own country into darkness and excommunication from the bits of the world his people would otherwise want to be part of.

Again, why ?
Besides the fact that Russia has been a pariah state in the west since 1917, what else have they got to lose ?
WE made them the enemy since 1945, how would you expect them to behave ?

As for what about the Yanks? Seriously? ‘Oh look back at the US disastrously invading countries illegally and murdering the civilian populations’. Hello, that is precisely what Putin is doing here and now. Nobody wants to say it out loud but the best the pro Russians can muster is ‘well if the yanks did it, then we can’t give Putin a hard time for doing it’. That is bonkers on so many different levels I don’t even know where to start.

Because when its the Yanks taking the moral high ground , after the body count they have recently, well, that sticks in my craw.
But I suppose its OK when we do it , because 'reasons' ?
When Russia does it there are no 'valid' reasons , because we say so.

Let’s assume the Yanks have been meddling in Ukraine? So what? The Russians can meddle back. They can look at all the other options available to then other than invasion and war. Look at the economic cost and loss of life now, as opposed to whatever was / was not going on a year ago. Is anyone in a better place right now?

So what ?
Because if youre admitting what most of the world already knows, and they have meddled enough to de stabilise the government, CAUSING the events that lead up to the invasion, its a direct consequence of their actions ?
It didnt give Russia an excuse to invade, but some of the blame must lie with the US policy in Ukraine .
What amount of blame is directly relevant to how much intent there was for the events that happened, and looking at US behaviour so far , there appears to be clear intent.

As Ive said , the US has huge amounts of previous experience at doing this kind of thing , they dont even try to hide what they do.
Is it beyond speculation that (like the 'fake' RAND report said) this was all planned to provoke Russia into invading, so they can be removed from the wester sphere of petrochemical supply ?
With the added bonus of weakening the EU , and making it dependent on US gas supply at exhorbitant prices ?

If these last points turn out to be true, which its looking likely, will you still think 'So what ' ?
 

This is all plastered over these pages already. Interestingly though the content of the last couple of days has tied it all together for me.

And McHughCB still can’t see the one person responsible for this disaster as doing anything wrong 😆

 

 

[Mungler]

13 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

 

You have tried to address everything with ‘because the Yanks…’. Not good enough an argument on any basis and I’ve already explained why.

I haven’t admitted any US meddling but made the point that even if they had, war was neither necessary nor proportional and with lots of other options and avenues. Simple concept of highlighting that even if your right about US meddling, you’re still wrong to give Putin the pass to an invasion and a war where hundreds of thousands have died and continue to die.

And as for the the something must have happened that we’re not privy to? Really? Well, if we’re speculating wildly and at nothing, I can go one better with it was because of Putin’s mind after 2 years of lockdown mixed in with good old fashioned corrupt soviet bad intelligence.

Have one more go at this, but just try removing ‘it was the US’ from the equation - you will then come up empty handed.

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

You have tried to address everything with ‘because the Yanks…’. Not good enough an argument on any basis and I’ve already explained why.

I haven’t admitted any US meddling but made the point that even if they had, war was neither necessary nor proportional and with lots of other options and avenues. Simple concept of highlighting that even if your right about US meddling, you’re still wrong to give Putin the pass to an invasion and a war where hundreds of thousands have died and continue to die.

You must have missed this bit then? 

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

It didnt give Russia an excuse to invade

 

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

And as for the the something must have happened that we’re not privy to? Really? Well, if we’re speculating wildly and at nothing, I can go one better with it was because of Putin’s mind after 2 years of lockdown mixed in with good old fashioned corrupt soviet bad intelligence.

Have one more go at this, but just try removing ‘it was the US’ from the equation - you will then come up empty handed.

I speculated that there was more to it that isn't common knowledge , is that really too hard to swallow ?

You try to fit the narrative to your opinion,  and it's you that ends up speculating Wildly, putin couldn't handle 2 years of lockdown?

I'm sure he could find something to amuse himself!

Are you actually saying flat out , the US had nothing to do with the coup?

[Stonepark]

6 hours ago, welsh1 said:

You have never posted any pictures of the children in the Dombass murdered, miamed and orphaned for 8 years by Ukranian attacks, mines and shelling.

It seems that the children of the Dombass aren't worthy of your sympathy, only those who are citizens of the current Ukranian government and whom "might" have been injured by the Russians.

Next pic I assume will be a dead puppy???

Deploying heart breaking pictures for sympathy, Classic propaganda tactics... But need more practice only scoring 4 out of 10

When people and countries go to war, the population suffers and people get hurt and die on others principles. The Ukrainian Government has decided it wishes to sacrifice it's population for it's "principles" (on instructions and with support of the West).

You want to stop it, end the military and monetary support and bring Ukraine to the negotiating table.

[Gordon R]

Quote

Canon are the ones they use and are made in China. China is still trading with Russia. This article makes no sense.

This has everything in common with your posts.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I don't recall Putin offering a complete end to the war and negotiating. 

 

[Stonepark]

4 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Its a sad thing when there is no middle ground , and youre either with them or against them.

I would imagine it was like that in Germany before WW2.

And the sad thing is that we are the reasonable ones, merely asking questions and considering other view points, rather than slavishly following the propaganda being fed to the population on a daily basis.

Countries representing over 4 Billion people have refused to endorse the USA\Wests approach to Ukraine, Russia has markets trading partners and export markets, we are simply cutting off our noses to spite our faces over a country that we (in the West) have chosen to sacrifice on the alter if trying to stop a multi polar world.

[welsh1]

Just now, Stonepark said:

You have never posted any pictures of the children in the Dombass murdered, miamed and orphaned for 8 years by Ukranian attacks, mines and shelling.

It seems that the children of the Dombass aren't worthy of your sympathy, only those who are citizens of the current Ukranian government and whom "might" have been injured by the Russians.

Next pic I assume will be a dead puppy???

Deploying heart breaking pictures for sympathy, Classic propaganda tactics... But need more practice only scoring 4 out of 10

When people and countries go to war, the population suffers and people get hurt and die on others principles. The Ukrainian Government has decided it wishes to sacrifice it's population for it's "principles" (on instructions and with support of the West).

You want to stop it, end the military and monetary support and bring Ukraine to the negotiating table.

I post these pictures because they are the direct result of russia invading ukraine and attacking its civilians in an aggressive act of war.

Thee are not pictures for sympathy they are pictures of the consequences of the invasion by russia and the harm they are doing to a population in a country they have no right to be in.

It is easily stopped, russia just has to withdraw from a country it invaded, ukraine does not have to negotiate with a country that has declared war on it.

All the pictures i have shown are verifed by various press photographer assocciations, and are featured in news articles as wide raging as the bbc to al jezzerra

 

This woman lost both of her legs in a bombing by russia, she will live the rest of her life in pain and experience hardship and pain because of the actions of russia..

 

russia is the aggressor, russia attacked ukraine.

[welsh1]

10 minutes ago, Stonepark said:

And the sad thing is that we are the reasonable ones, merely asking questions and considering other view points, rather than slavishly following the propaganda being fed to the population on a daily basis.

Countries representing over 4 Billion people have refused to endorse the USA\Wests approach to Ukraine, Russia has markets trading partners and export markets, we are simply cutting off our noses to spite our faces over a country that we (in the West) have chosen to sacrifice on the alter if trying to stop a multi polar world.

Tell me who invaded Ukraine?
Who is killing innocent people in Ukraine?

[ordnance]

5 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Seeing as the thread has degenerated into petty insults, accusations of insanity , drug taking , and comparing how much we all get paid for working for foreign powers, lets keep it open as long as possible and let everyone know how responsible UK firearms owners are 

I do have one , maybe two questions for @Mungler , The Dark One has taken a particular interest in you , and because he cant get an internet connection in his underground torture chamber, hes asked me to step in.
How is it you were so distrustful of the wests governments and policies during the covid years, making many posts about lies ect (which I fully agreed with) then when Ukraine happens, those same governments can be completely trusted with their policies and response ?
Also the US has an undisputable track record, going back to the 50s , of meddling in foreign regimes across the flat earth globe, and seeking to either mould them to their will , or just simply smash them and install their own puppets.
Yet you flatly refuse to accept they had anything to do with Ukraines collapse in 2014.

The Dark Lord expects an answer, or you can avoid open windows for life, the evil of Mordor cast a very long shadow... 😄

 

You are scraping the bottom of the barrel with her, a well know far left Russia useful idiot. Who next Russell Brand 😂

[Mungler]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

Are you actually saying flat out , the US had nothing to do with the coup?

Coup does not necessitate invasion and war. And as for involvement in a coup -  I don’t know. And then there’s extent - funnelling a trillion dollars of arms or printing some leaflets? That’s a big spread of potential involvement.

Ukrainian citizens have had ample chance in the meantime to change their minds no? Lovers of Putin have had a chance to hop over the border?

Edited October 22, 2022 by Mungler

[Stonepark]

3 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

This has everything in common with your posts.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I don't recall Putin offering a complete end to the war and negotiating. 

 

Putin pulled back the Kiev attack troops staged out of Belarus In good faith that Zelensky would sign the neogatiations in March, when Z refused to do so on orders from the West, Putin now knows he cannot be trusted.

Putin has always been open to ending the war and negotiating but that will not be a withdrawal and negotiation, it will be at best a ceasefire and negotiation due to last March and at worst, it will be when Ukraine collapses and they have little standing to negotiate.

[welsh1]

6 minutes ago, Stonepark said:

Putin pulled back the Kiev attack troops staged out of Belarus In good faith that Zelensky would sign the neogatiations in March, when Z refused to do so on orders from the West, Putin now knows he cannot be trusted.

Putin has always been open to ending the war and negotiating but that will not be a withdrawal and negotiation, it will be at best a ceasefire and negotiation due to last March and at worst, it will be when Ukraine collapses and they have little standing to negotiate.

Is this the same putin that caused the war by invading ukraine when he said he wasn't going to and is killing and maiming the population?

[ordnance]

16 minutes ago, Stonepark said:

Putin pulled back the Kiev attack troops staged out of Belarus In good faith that Zelensky would sign the neogatiations in March, when Z refused to do so on orders from the West, Putin now knows he cannot be trusted.

Putin has always been open to ending the war and negotiating but that will not be a withdrawal and negotiation, it will be at best a ceasefire and negotiation due to last March and at worst, it will be when Ukraine collapses and they have little standing to negotiate.

We are now into the twilight zone, Putin did not pull his troops back as a good faith measure they were forced back by the Ukrainians and their own ineptitude. Putin is open to negotiating as long as it's a Ukrainian surrender, as for Putin knowing Zelensk can't be trusted 😂 what like Trusting Putin when he stated Russia had no intention of invading Ukraine 🙄

[henry d]

1 hour ago, Stonepark said:

...the negotiating table.

Where were the negotiations at the start of the year?

1 hour ago, Stonepark said:

...considering other view points...

Yet you stonewall when confronted with other points of view (mainly conflicting links)

[Mungler]

12 hours ago, ordnance said:

We are now into the twilight zone, Putin did not pull his troops back as a good faith measure they were forced back by the Ukrainians and their own ineptitude. Putin is open to negotiating as long as it's a Ukrainian surrender, as for Putin knowing Zelensk can't be trusted 😂 what like Trusting Putin when he stated Russia had no intention of invading Ukraine 🙄

It’s very strange to think he actually believes the Kremlin regurgitated guff he knocks out.

Some of the grammar and text reads like it’s from an information ministry script - how anyone can say that Putin has done anything in good faith and with a straight face is beyond me.

All very worrying that sone are so easily brainwashed. And to the extent of having their own moral compasses and ability to weigh right from wrong, washed clean away.

[Stonepark]

12 hours ago, henry d said:

Where were the negotiations at the start of the year?

Yet you stonewall when confronted with other points of view (mainly conflicting links)

Wikipedia has the Western approved version of events at the following links... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Russia–Ukraine_peace_negotiations

 

I am still waiting for someone on Ukraine side to admit Ukraine as a country ended after the illegal coup but that question is stonewalled even though it is an accepted way for secession of a country from a previously larger entity.

Once you accept that premise, you then have to question the attack on Dombass by Ukraine rump state, then the peace keeping carried out by Russia, then the invasion, etc etc.

 

[treetree]

17 hours ago, mchughcb said:

Canon are the ones they use and are made in China. China is still trading with Russia. This article makes no sense.

Some months back we were told Russia was taking the microchips out of dishwashers and fridges for weapons systems.

It's part of a cynical attempt to show the gullible public that sanctions are hurting Russia  when in reality the sanctions are hurting us more.

[Stonepark]

13 hours ago, Mungler said:

Coup does not necessitate invasion and war. And as for involvement in a coup -  I don’t know. And then there’s extent - funnelling a trillion dollars of arms or printing some leaflets? That’s a big spread of potential involvement.

Ukrainian citizens have had ample chance in the meantime to change their minds no? Lovers of Putin have had a chance to hop over the border?

An elected democratic government aligning with Russia should not nessitate a coup and civil war, but the Neocons mainly in the USA decided differently.....  as a bonus they got somewhere to make lots of money from... Both from weapon supply and washing corrupt bribes and payments.

Citizens of the Former Ukranian of Dombass opted to go their own way, why should they abandon their lands, houses and families and hop over the border when they could govern themselves indepently of Kiev?

This is about Pepe's sovereignty and choices, accept an illegal undemocratic government or take control of your own destiny.

I understand why it is difficult to acknowledge that the Dombass choosing seccesssion is legitimate given the stability we have had in the UK but the Republic of Ireland was part of the UK, we tried civil war for a number of years but in the end up allowed it's independence, Ukraine was in the similar position with the Dombass yet have "chosen" to fight this change.

 

Edited October 23, 2022 by Stonepark