Usyk and Ukraine

[Mungler]

The eldest got back from a lads trip to Budapest and on their travels bumped into some lads from Leeds who met Usyk in the airport as he headed back to the Ukraine to join up.

I know that there’s a Ukraine mandate that men 16-60 have to stay put, but it looks like they don’t need that mandate.

Sean Penn was recently in the Ukraine for a documentary and he tweeted that all the cars heading to the Polish border only contained women and children and that coming the other way was a steady stream of Ukrainian men returning to their Country to fight - quite the reverse of what we have seen and are accustomed to for other conflicts in other parts of the world (and also where the leadership jump on the first plane out to establish a government in exile in Switzerland).

I think the world has a new found admiration for the Ukrainian people. And what is unfolding now is a lesson in focusing on what is actually important - anyone still worried right now about masks and if the PM had a beer during lockdown?

I saw that the police are still investigating the Downing Street drinks party - right now I think that man power might be better deployed, oh I don’t know, standing at the back of the Russian embassy and paying close attention to who is coming and going for starters.

[Raja Clavata]

There are indeed other priorities at present but the investigation of the government shenanigans do need to be completed at some point. For a lot of people, regardless of political leaning, it's a bit more fundamental than the PM simply having a beer during lockdown.

Ukrainians have always been nails, as are most people from that region.

On the topic of what is / isn't important, there might be worthy debate on why the plight of the likes of Yemen is pretty low key, as one example.

[udderlyoffroad]

Silver lining to this particular cloud is at least we’re being bombarded with less COVID-19 nonsense. Although it is amusing to see the biggest proponents of lockdown on PW have moved on to arm-chair-generalling of how the Ukrainians should organise their defences.   Listen, you couldn’t even be bothered to stand up for the freedom of your own children, maybe sit this one out.

[Mungler]

1 hour ago, udderlyoffroad said:

Listen, you couldn’t even be bothered to stand up for the freedom of your own children, maybe sit this one out.

Or entertain that the Canadians / the inhabitants of other countries still in lockdown might want to live free etc

We digress.

in the meantime, much respect to the people of Ukraine.

1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said:

On the topic of what is / isn't important, there might be worthy debate on why the plight of the likes of Yemen is pretty low key, as one example.

It’s a big world and Yemen and what’s still going on in China is probably a bridge too far away for most.

Mainland Europe (which anyone of us could have driven to a couple of weeks ago), that’s ‘on the doorstep’ concern.

[ShootingEgg]

5 hours ago, Mungler said:

anyone still worried right now about masks and if the PM had a beer during lockdown?

Wasn't ever bothered by either. But the media had a gap to fill, maybe knowing this conflict was looming but did not want to broadcast untill it absolutely had too.

[Gordon R]

I have nothing but admiration for the Ukraine people and am frankly astonished at the high profile people enlisting. Whilst I still have reservations about the cost of resistance, I doff my cap to their heroic efforts. I never thought they could successfully resist and still don't, but they put the cross Channel bunch (fleeing from a war zone? - mainly young men) to shame.

Got to agree with Mungler about Partygate. With Covid fizzling out, Maxwell convicted, Prince Andrew settling the court case, the media wanted something to write about. What Boris did was daft, but on the current scale - hardly worth bothering about.

[Raja Clavata]

20 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Mainland Europe (which anyone of us could have driven to a couple of weeks ago), that’s ‘on the doorstep’ concern.

Agreed. Not much else to add here but I'm sure the rest of the Tory spin doctors will arrive in this thread soon, will be watching with interest.

[ShootingEgg]

Just now, Raja Clavata said:

Agreed. Not much else to add here but I'm sure the rest of the Tory spin doctors will arrive in this thread soon, will be watching with interest.

Good cast their, enjoy fishing by any chance?

[Mungler]

50 minutes ago, ShootingEgg said:

Good cast their, enjoy fishing by any chance?

Hahahaha that’s no real bait though. It’s more a pound shop lure 😆

At the last election we had 2 choice and 1 was Corbyn. Do I need to add anything else; I think not.

The end. 😀

[Blackpowder]

6 hours ago, Mungler said:

The eldest got back from a lads trip to Budapest and on their travels bumped into some lads from Leeds who met Usyk in the airport as he headed back to the Ukraine to join up.

I know that there’s a Ukraine mandate that men 16-60 have to stay put, but it looks like they don’t need that mandate.

Sean Penn was recently in the Ukraine for a documentary and he tweeted that all the cars heading to the Polish border only contained women and children and that coming the other way was a steady stream of Ukrainian men returning to their Country to fight - quite the reverse of what we have seen and are accustomed to for other conflicts in other parts of the world (and also where the leadership jump on the first plane out to establish a government in exile in Switzerland).

I think the world has a new found admiration for the Ukrainian people. And what is unfolding now is a lesson in focusing on what is actually important - anyone still worried right now about masks and if the PM had a beer during lockdown?

I saw that the police are still investigating the Downing Street drinks party - right now I think that man power might be better deployed, oh I don’t know, standing at the back of the Russian embassy and paying close attention to who is coming and going for starters.

That is well said and  I am sure all our thoughts are with those of this free nation being intimidated by a bully boy.  Many get their comeuppance in the  end, think Saddam, Gaddafi Hitler.

 

Blackpowder

[Raja Clavata]

It wasn't even an under-arm flick. 

My Tory spin doctor comment was made as a (former) Tory voter who intends to vote Tory again, abstaining in the meantime.

No idea what the last election has to do with this topic any more than I understand why Blair and Brown are constantly referred to in defence / mitigation of the current Government behaviour. Perhaps there's a bargain corner in a pound shop, personally I wouldn't know 😛 

Wrong is wrong, whether it's breaking lock-down laws or invading a sovereign country, anyone trying to defend the indefensible needs to take a serious look at themselves regardless of the nature of their defence.

 

[Mungler]

12 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

It wasn't even an under-arm flick. 

My Tory spin doctor comment was made as a (former) Tory voter who intends to vote Tory again, abstaining in the meantime.

No idea what the last election has to do with this topic any more than I understand why Blair and Brown are constantly referred to in defence / mitigation of the current Government behaviour. Perhaps there's a bargain corner in a pound shop, personally I wouldn't know 😛 

Wrong is wrong, whether it's breaking lock-down laws or invading a sovereign country, anyone trying to defend the indefensible needs to take a serious look at themselves regardless of the nature of their defence.

 

So you’re weighing up invading Ukraine with having a beer with the people you work with and thereby breaching a lock down (which we all now know to have been medically pointless)?

Have you banged your head?

The election reference is valid. If it wasn’t Boris we would have Corbyn as our Prime Minster right now. Corbyn the unreserved lover of all things Russian including their lies over the Salisbury murders.

I prefer Boris as the better election product and having regard to the December lock down that didn’t happen and the invasion of Ukraine, ever thankful for the small mercies.

[Raja Clavata]

9 minutes ago, Mungler said:

So you’re weighing up invading Ukraine with having a beer with the people you work with and thereby breaching a lock down (which we all now know to have been medically pointless)?

Have you banged your head?

I'm doing nothing of the sort (and you very well know it).

It's ironic that you ask if I've banged my head when I'm debating the need to uphold the rule of law with a brief.

I'm proud that the UK is making the stand it is in response to Russia. Corbyn would have been a disaster but it doesn't make Boris good, just better than Corbyn. Surely that's not in doubt. It's a non-topic.

[udderlyoffroad]

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

Hahahaha that’s no real bait though. It’s more a pound shop lure 😆

Hook, rod, line, sinker and copy of Angling Times.

The lockdown laws were indefensible, the fact that it is using valuable police resources to work out whether they did in fact break the law should be testament to that.  Senior police officers giving serious pronouncements on scotch eggs should have been sufficient proof that the plot had well and truly been lost in this country.

Further I would suggest most people are utterly sick of hearing about ‘partygate’.  That embarrassing Kuessenburg woman asking the PM questions about it at a presser re the conflict in the Ukraine being a fairly typical example.  These repeated attempts at ‘catch you out’ questions are not journalism and are just cringe-worthy for all concerned.

The rest of the world, rightly or wrongly, accepts politicians as creatures very much of the “do as I say, not as I do” variety.  In England, we appear to hold our politicians to a higher standard.

8 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Corbyn would have been a disaster but it doesn't make Boris good, just better than Corbyn. Surely that's not in doubt. It's a non-topic.

You appear to be struggling with binary choices*, though you and @Mungler are in danger of agreeing with each other 😉

As for Corbo, even a stopped clock is right twice a day, this sudden demonising of the people of Russia and all things Russian is very concerning, in my opinion.  It’s not like they had much of a democratic choice, is it?

Also it appears some people really should google “Ethnic makeup of Ukraine” along with “Orange Revolution”  – this is not condoning an invasion, but Russians = bad, Ukrainians = good is a moronic oversimplification IMHO, and people cheerfully espousing it online have just proved Denis Thatcher’s most famous quote to be true….

*Yes I know, you elect a local MP, not the PM, but many people see it as a binary choice

Edited March 3, 2022 by udderlyoffroad

[Penelope]

7 hours ago, Mungler said:

The eldest got back from a lads trip to Budapest and on their travels bumped into some lads from Leeds who met Usyk in the airport as he headed back to the Ukraine to join up.

I know that there’s a Ukraine mandate that men 16-60 have to stay put, but it looks like they don’t need that mandate.

Sean Penn was recently in the Ukraine for a documentary and he tweeted that all the cars heading to the Polish border only contained women and children and that coming the other way was a steady stream of Ukrainian men returning to their Country to fight - quite the reverse of what we have seen and are accustomed to for other conflicts in other parts of the world (and also where the leadership jump on the first plane out to establish a government in exile in Switzerland).

I think the world has a new found admiration for the Ukrainian people. And what is unfolding now is a lesson in focusing on what is actually important - anyone still worried right now about masks and if the PM had a beer during lockdown?

I saw that the police are still investigating the Downing Street drinks party - right now I think that man power might be better deployed, oh I don’t know, standing at the back of the Russian embassy and paying close attention to who is coming and going for starters.

Erudite as usual.

2 hours ago, Gordon R said:

I have nothing but admiration for the Ukraine people and am frankly astonished at the high profile people enlisting. Whilst I still have reservations about the cost of resistance, I doff my cap to their heroic efforts. I never thought they could successfully resist and still don't, but they put the cross Channel bunch (fleeing from a war zone? - mainly young men) to shame.

Got to agree with Mungler about Partygate. With Covid fizzling out, Maxwell convicted, Prince Andrew settling the court case, the media wanted something to write about. What Boris did was daft, but on the current scale - hardly worth bothering about.

👍

[Raja Clavata]

7 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

You appear to be struggling with binary choices*, though you and @Mungler are in danger of agreeing with each other 😉

As for Corbo, even a stopped clock is right twice a day, this sudden demonising of the people of Russia and all things Russian is very concerning, in my opinion.  It’s not like they had much of a democratic choice, is it?

Also it appears some people really should google “Ethnic makeup of Ukraine” along with “Orange Revolution”  – this is not condoning an invasion, but Russians = bad, Ukrainians = good is a moronic oversimplification IMHO, and people cheerfully espousing it online have just proved Denis Thatcher’s most famous quote to be true….

*Yes I know, you elect a local MP, not the PM, but many people see it as a binary choice

To be honest you appear to be struggling with rational thought and reasoned argument, are you a politician per chance? 

Hint: rhetorical question, no need to answer.

[Mungler]

But the general election was a binary choice though wasn’t it?

There is no worked rule of law example or comparison to be had between party gate and invading Ukraine. Even if there was, at what point do we say ‘so what?’. What if the prime minister is caught speeding, dropping litter or letting his dog foul the pavement? Do we throw the full weight of the Courts at those offences in the same way we investigate and prosecute war crimes? 

History has shown us that irrelevant and obsolete laws will come and go and that politicians bang their secretaries and fiddle their expenses. Until Mother Theresa or Jesus himself ends up on the ballot paper I urge common sense and proportionality in how we consider and measure our politicians. As I said, not being Corbyn, not locking us down and not invading Ukraine does in my books right now give Boris a pass on a beer with his colleagues because we need him to be doing and focusing on the bigger stuff.

[Mungler]

Edit

I’ve another idea. Why don’t we hang Boris out to dry for party gate, get him kicked out of office….. and then what? Liz Truss dealing on the international stage and leading the way on Ukraine. We could send Rishi out maybe - he’ll be good on the numbers right?

It would be well done to us following the rule of law though and all the benefits that we would gain and achieve and which flow from that noble course of action - oh yes, I forgot, there aren’t any and we would be cutting our nose off to spite our face.

Edited March 3, 2022 by Mungler

[udderlyoffroad]

7 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

To be honest you appear to be struggling with rational thought and reasoned argument, are you a politician per chance? 

Another metaphorical cast of the rod.  But if I was struggling that much, surely refuting even one of my points as nonsense would easy?

Hint: rhetorical question, no need to answer.

If you're ok with tarring the people of Russia with the same broad brush as the former KGB paranoid-delusional-nutcase sat in the Kremlin, then so be it.  I can see the difference, and I find it genuinely worrying that more people can't.

[Mungler]

3 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

If you're ok with tarring the people of Russia with the same broad brush as the former KGB paranoid-delusional-nutcase sat in the Kremlin, then so be it.  I can see the difference, and I find it genuinely worrying that more people can't.

A fair point. I wouldn’t tar the whole of the Russian populace by their (unchosen) leadership. Mind you, I’d have more respect for them if they did something about Putin - it’s in their hands, it’s their country and it’s their problem which has now become everyone else’s big problem.

[Raja Clavata]

21 minutes ago, Mungler said:

There is no worked rule of law example or comparison to be had between party gate and invading Ukraine. Even if there was, at what point do we say ‘so what?’. What if the prime minister is caught speeding, dropping litter or letting his dog foul the pavement? Do we throw the full weight of the Courts at those offences in the same way we investigate and prosecute war crimes? 

You seem to be the only one comparing the two from a legal perspective.

The key point of our variance here appears to be whether or not Boris' Partygate should be addressed by the Police or not - I'm saying yes, in due course and you appear to be saying no, never?

19 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

Another metaphorical cast of the rod.  But if I was struggling that much, surely refuting even one of my points as nonsense would easy?

Hint: rhetorical question, no need to answer.

If you're ok with tarring the people of Russia with the same broad brush as the former KGB paranoid-delusional-nutcase sat in the Kremlin, then so be it.  I can see the difference, and I find it genuinely worrying that more people can't.

I just replied in kind to your previous post but genuinely, you suggest I don't understand binary choice and then suggest the example you derive the suggestion from is in fact not a binary choice.

Also, nowhere have I pointed a finger at the Russian public. This is down to Putin and his regime, pretty much everyone else is, or will be, a victim of his action to varying degrees.

As Mungler has said the sooner he's taken out the better, hopefully by one of his own.

[Mungler]

1 minute ago, Raja Clavata said:

You seem to be the only one comparing the two from a legal perspective.

 

“Wrong is wrong, whether it's breaking lock-down laws or invading a sovereign country”

 

 

 

[Mice!]

4 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

On the topic of what is / isn't important, there might be worthy debate on why the plight of the likes of Yemen is pretty low key, as one example.

Yemen never gets a mention,  I always thought it was in Africa not the middle east, but its not the gateway to Europe from Russia so people won't give it a second thought.

22 minutes ago, Mungler said:

A fair point. I wouldn’t tar the whole of the Russian populace by their (unchosen) leadership. Mind you, I’d have more respect for them if they did something about Putin - it’s in their hands, it’s their country and it’s their problem which has now become everyone else’s big problem.

It would take a full revolution from the Russian people to remove Putin, I doubt tge majority of Russians agree with him, but openly defying him is positively dangerous. 

11 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Wrong is wrong, whether it's breaking lock-down laws or invading a sovereign country”

Got to say, no its not.

[Raja Clavata]

I was quoting on a moral basis since I'm not qualified to comment on legal matters.

I wasn't suggesting Boris should face the same consequences as Putin (surely that was obvious).

In my book Boris doing better than Corbyn would have done doesn't make him innocent of other wrongs.

Surely with that line of reasoning a person accused of rape could use the fact they prevented a murder in another incident as a reason for acquittal for the rape charge (i'm talking metaphorically here, of course)

[old man]

58 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

 

I'm proud that the UK is making the stand it is in response to Russia. Corbyn would have been a disaster but it doesn't make Boris good, just better than Corbyn. Surely that's not in doubt. It's a non-topic.

Correct!

For the record I personally have no time for the majority of our political creatures as it's always a choice of who will cause least harm?