Another school shooting in America

[Walker570]

On 25/05/2022 at 01:40, Lloyd90 said:

The USA is a very very different country and culture in many ways to the U.K. and they will never ever give up their citizens rights to own guns. 
 

RIP to all those who have sadly lost their lives 😞 

ALSO their Supreme Court refuses to make it law that maniacs be locked up .  This youth had a load of previous, know maniac mental case but still allowed by the Democrat Controlled Supreme Court to walk the streets and kill people. Seb Gorka made this quite clear when interviewed by a baised UK reporter. He asked how many knife crimes there had been in the UK in the last year by supposedly sane youngsters.  This could have been avoided if the suthorities had done their jobs but again it is better to kill the messenger.

[Raja Clavata]

2 hours ago, London Best said:

A young man I had only just met, in Arizona, took me into his house to show me his new .22 rifle. He took it from his wardrobe and handed it to me.

Yep!   Full mag and one up the spout.

Not advocating it but not sure how home defence is supposed to work if the ammo is stored in a different place to the firearm? Seems to be part of the problem to me (the whole home defence gig I mean).

[Scully]

5 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Not advocating it but not sure how home defence is supposed to work if the ammo is stored in a different place to the firearm? 

This. 

[ordnance]

2 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

Not advocating it but not sure how home defence is supposed to work if the ammo is stored in a different place to the firearm? Seems to be part of the problem to me (the whole home defence gig I mean).

You don't hand a loaded firearm to anyone, If it's for self-defense or not.

[Lloyd90]

On 25/05/2022 at 23:11, The Heron said:

Can someone explain the American obsession with home defense is it such an awful place to live that you need to keep your doors locked and fill your house with guns. 

 

America is a MASSIVE country, with people often living in areas that have wild dangerous animals, are several hours away from any neighbours, and often many more hours away from Police or any sort of support.

 

A country built off self-reliance, and the idiology you rely on yourself and not the Government. 

 

If someone breaks into your home, you phone the Police and they are 3-5 hours drive away (if they even come) what do you do then? 

 

The Yanks have a saying, "When seconds count, the Police are minutes away". 

 

The UK has a similar problem with scumbags, burgulars, drug addicts etc. Our Laws allow us to hide in our homes, sit by and do nothing whilst scum take our belongings. If you go downstairs and confront them you risk being labelled a criminal yourself.

 

In the USA, if you confront and shoot the criminal, it is your right to defend your home and belongings (Many states are 'stand your ground' states) and strongly support this view. 

 

 

Add into the mix that many US states border other countries that are known for lawlessness etc. I have heard from Rancher's and Farmers in the Southern USA who often have Coyote's (Illegal human traffickers) passing over their land, cutting their fences and would think nothing at shooting at them to stop them calling the border patrol. 

 

As above, some of these locations are several hours away from any help. 

 

 

 

 

 

It is a completely different world to what people in the UK are used to, but it is not that different from many other parts of the world.

 

In Africa etc it is also common for people to have home defence weapons, and if someone breaks into your home you can shoot them. 

 

A lot of people in the UK are living in a very sheltered bubble, thinking the world isn't full of bad people ready to do whatever they want to take what you have. 

 

 

[Scully]

1 hour ago, Lloyd90 said:

 

America is a MASSIVE country, with people often living in areas that have wild dangerous animals, are several hours away from any neighbours, and often many more hours away from Police or any sort of support.

 

A country built off self-reliance, and the idiology you rely on yourself and not the Government. 

 

If someone breaks into your home, you phone the Police and they are 3-5 hours drive away (if they even come) what do you do then? 

 

The Yanks have a saying, "When seconds count, the Police are minutes away". 

 

The UK has a similar problem with scumbags, burgulars, drug addicts etc. Our Laws allow us to hide in our homes, sit by and do nothing whilst scum take our belongings. If you go downstairs and confront them you risk being labelled a criminal yourself.

 

In the USA, if you confront and shoot the criminal, it is your right to defend your home and belongings (Many states are 'stand your ground' states) and strongly support this view. 

 

 

Add into the mix that many US states border other countries that are known for lawlessness etc. I have heard from Rancher's and Farmers in the Southern USA who often have Coyote's (Illegal human traffickers) passing over their land, cutting their fences and would think nothing at shooting at them to stop them calling the border patrol. 

 

As above, some of these locations are several hours away from any help. 

 

 

 

 

 

It is a completely different world to what people in the UK are used to, but it is not that different from many other parts of the world.

 

In Africa etc it is also common for people to have home defence weapons, and if someone breaks into your home you can shoot them. 

 

A lot of people in the UK are living in a very sheltered bubble, thinking the world isn't full of bad people ready to do whatever they want to take what you have. 

 

 

Good post. An Uncle and his family moved to Krugersdorf on the outskirts of Johannesburg in the mid to late ‘60’s.
He carried a Mauser handgun, whether at home or not, and while driving it lived in the glove compartment of his vehicle…..’ nice and handy at traffic lights’. 
Different world. 

Edited May 27, 2022 by Scully

[Lloyd90]

2 hours ago, Scully said:

Good post. An Uncle and his family moved to Krugersdorf on the outskirts of Johannesburg in the mid to late ‘60’s.
He carried a Mauser handgun, whether at home or not, and while driving it lived in the glove compartment of his vehicle…..’ nice and handy at traffic lights’. 
Different world. 

 

Friend's of ours have family out in Africa who run a safari, they had looters turn up one day and just shoot the father dead and loot the house. 

Have heard many similar stories of Africa and other places around the world. 

People don't know how good they have it in this country. 

 

 

[Houseplant]

28 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

 

Friend's of ours have family out in Africa who run a safari, they had looters turn up one day and just shoot the father dead and loot the house. 

Have heard many similar stories of Africa and other places around the world. 

People don't know how good they have it in this country. 

 

 

There are tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of South Africans in NZ. All the ones I've met know someone, often a family member who has been murdered in South Africa. 

[WalkedUp]

I have lots of family still in South Africa. They are mind blown when they come to the UK. That children play outside. That we don’t need walls, razor wire and electric fences around our property.  Also that you have to fill your car up with fuel yourself.

They have all been held up at gunpoint on many occasions. It’s just part of life over there in Jo’burg. 

Edited May 28, 2022 by WalkedUp

[Lloyd90]

3 hours ago, WalkedUp said:

I have lots of family still in South Africa. They are mind blown when they come to the UK. That children play outside. That we don’t need walls, razor wire and electric fences around our property.  Also that you have to fill your car up with fuel yourself.

They have all been held up at gunpoint on many occasions. It’s just part of life over their in Jo’burg. 

 

And it's sadly similar in SOME places in the USA. 

There are people with the same mentality all over the world. 

 

The biggest issue I can see with schools etc in the USA is these mass shooters know they are 'soft targets' due to being gun free zones. 

You don't see mass shooters trying to shoot up Police stations etc. 

I'm amazed they haven't fenced off schools better with one central main point of access that has armed security to get in and out... (I bet a lot of school's probably do have this). 

 

[NoBodyImportant]

On 24/05/2022 at 19:13, Rob85 said:

Just seen a report of another school shooting in the USA, elementary school in Texas this time I think. Why do lunatics target children?

Gun free zone.  Plus according to his mom he was bullied for being transgender , wearing eyeliner, the way he talked.  Working with Mexicans I can tell you this.  Latinos with absolutely make fun of you for everything they can.  That county is 83% Hispanic with 69% speaking Spanish.  So I guarantee a dude with make up and in a dress was bullied relentlessly.  It’s not that they are mean but it’s literally their culture.  You get made fun of from everything from having man titties to the way you eat a banana. So I couldn’t imagine wearing makeup and dress in a 83% Mexican  county.   Latinos are extremely conservative and heavy catholic and they do not except the gay community.  

[NoBodyImportant]

On 25/05/2022 at 17:48, Jaymo said:

It was quoted as there being more than 400 million firearms in circulation in the States. 

400 million “known” firearms.  They are hidden is the walls of houses, buried in the wood, and spread across the country.  Example:  my cousin will call me up and say, hey man, the if you go into the woods behind my grandmas there is a packaged under the seat under the wrecked Chevy truck.  Then at the same time he knows where my stash guns are.  You see we don’t have a firearm registry.  They take their numbers off the number of NIC checks.  But a NIC check is a background check.  It’s a yes or no from the ATF to see if your a felon or not.  So if I walk into a gun store and pass a NICS check I can buy 10 guns but the ATF counts it as one sale.    That’s before you even count the home built guns.  You can legally build a rifle at home and carry it.  So honestly there are easily double what they think. Even if all guns are seized the people have more guns then the government 

[NoBodyImportant]

10 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

 

America is a MASSIVE country, with people often living in areas that have wild dangerous animals, are several hours away from any neighbours, and often many more hours away from Police or any sort of support.

 

A country built off self-reliance, and the idiology you rely on yourself and not the Government. 

 

If someone breaks into your home, you phone the Police and they are 3-5 hours drive away (if they even come) what do you do then? 

 

The Yanks have a saying, "When seconds count, the Police are minutes away". 

 

The UK has a similar problem with scumbags, burgulars, drug addicts etc. Our Laws allow us to hide in our homes, sit by and do nothing whilst scum take our belongings. If you go downstairs and confront them you risk being labelled a criminal yourself.

 

In the USA, if you confront and shoot the criminal, it is your right to defend your home and belongings (Many states are 'stand your ground' states) and strongly support this view. 

 

 

Add into the mix that many US states border other countries that are known for lawlessness etc. I have heard from Rancher's and Farmers in the Southern USA who often have Coyote's (Illegal human traffickers) passing over their land, cutting their fences and would think nothing at shooting at them to stop them calling the border patrol. 

 

As above, some of these locations are several hours away from any help. 

 

 

 

 

 

It is a completely different world to what people in the UK are used to, but it is not that different from many other parts of the world.

 

In Africa etc it is also common for people to have home defence weapons, and if someone breaks into your home you can shoot them. 

 

A lot of people in the UK are living in a very sheltered bubble, thinking the world isn't full of bad people ready to do whatever they want to take what you have. 

 

 

Great post.  Most state have rock solid self defense laws( castle doctrine, stand your ground). Basically you body is your castle, you do not have the duty to retreat.  You can defend your life and possession with deadly force.  One thing that  Europeans always say is how much bigger the use is then they think.  I have stood on flat prairie that was flat as ocean and you can spin 360 degrees and not see another car, person, tree, or house.  The USA is really like 50 independent countries that have common President.   I think the mistake many make is to not understand how far apart and different we are. 
alaska

texas

californa

 

Edited May 28, 2022 by NoBodyImportant

[NoBodyImportant]

Even the small state on North Carolina where I live is still pretty big.  I live in the center of the state, But I own homes at the beach and the mountains.  So if I leave my beach house and drive to my mountain house it’s about 500 miles as the crow flys.  The people  at the beach are completely different the at the mountain cabin. 

[NoBodyImportant]

16 hours ago, Newbie to this said:

Absolutely, defending oneself, ones family and ones property, by whatever means necessary, should be a right that everyone has.

On this the USA have it right.

 

 

 

Yes, Florida is a castle doctrine.  You can kill them own your property and its cheaper to bury them instead of feeding and locking them up them for 10 years.  I’d had job offers in FL my I’m not down with the summer tropics.  I like the NC and SC coast.  We got palm trees, less heat and humidity.

[Houseplant]

Good points NoBodyImportant. As others have said, I think you should have the right defend yourself, family and property. In my opinion, this is where the Anglosphere outside of the USA has got it wrong. Having said that, nobody wants American levels of gun crime. 

[ordnance]

6 hours ago, Houseplant said:

Good points NoBodyImportant. As others have said, I think you should have the right defend yourself, family and property. In my opinion, this is where the Anglosphere outside of the USA has got it wrong. Having said that, nobody wants American levels of gun crime. 

You do have the right to defend yourself family and properly, in the UK and most countries.

[Scully]

4 minutes ago, ordnance said:

You do have the right to defend yourself family and properly, in the UK and most countries.

With what? 

[ordnance]

15 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

 

And it's sadly similar in SOME places in the USA. 

There are people with the same mentality all over the world. 

 

The biggest issue I can see with schools etc in the USA is these mass shooters know they are 'soft targets' due to being gun free zones. 

You don't see mass shooters trying to shoot up Police stations etc. 

I'm amazed they haven't fenced off schools better with one central main point of access that has armed security to get in and out... (I bet a lot of school's probably do have this). 

 

They are going after school's for different reasons, not just because they are gun free zones. Should they have it that anyone can have firearms in school's.

[ordnance]

2 minutes ago, Scully said:

With what? 

Just whatever you can get your hands on, there is no law that I know of that state's you can't use a particular item. You will have to justify the level of force used, and rightly so IMO.

[Scully]

11 minutes ago, ordnance said:

They are going after school's for different reasons, not just because they are gun free zones. Should they have it that anyone can have firearms in school's.

Schools in some well armed and or unstable societies have armed personnel on the payroll. It’s stupid not to. 

 

6 minutes ago, ordnance said:

Just whatever you can get your hands on, there is no law that I know of that state's you can't use a particular item. You will have to justify the level of force used, and rightly so IMO.

That’s great if there’s something suitable to hand, whereas in reality the truly atrocious aspect of this is that the criminals come armed but the victim is prevented by law to carry anything effective with which to protect themselves. Politicians would rather we were victims than run the risk of allowing us to be armed with anything. 
Criminals do not target those they deem able to defend themselves, which is why we see pictures of 80 odd year old ladies bruised and battered beyond recognition in the media.
This is also one of the reasons the gunman in America targeted a school…..no defence. 

[Walker570]

23 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

 

America is a MASSIVE country, with people often living in areas that have wild dangerous animals, are several hours away from any neighbours, and often many more hours away from Police or any sort of support.

 

A country built off self-reliance, and the idiology you rely on yourself and not the Government. 

 

If someone breaks into your home, you phone the Police and they are 3-5 hours drive away (if they even come) what do you do then? 

 

The Yanks have a saying, "When seconds count, the Police are minutes away". 

 

The UK has a similar problem with scumbags, burgulars, drug addicts etc. Our Laws allow us to hide in our homes, sit by and do nothing whilst scum take our belongings. If you go downstairs and confront them you risk being labelled a criminal yourself.

 

In the USA, if you confront and shoot the criminal, it is your right to defend your home and belongings (Many states are 'stand your ground' states) and strongly support this view. 

 

 

Add into the mix that many US states border other countries that are known for lawlessness etc. I have heard from Rancher's and Farmers in the Southern USA who often have Coyote's (Illegal human traffickers) passing over their land, cutting their fences and would think nothing at shooting at them to stop them calling the border patrol. 

 

As above, some of these locations are several hours away from any help. 

 

 

 

 

 

It is a completely different world to what people in the UK are used to, but it is not that different from many other parts of the world.

 

In Africa etc it is also common for people to have home defence weapons, and if someone breaks into your home you can shoot them. 

 

A lot of people in the UK are living in a very sheltered bubble, thinking the world isn't full of bad people ready to do whatever they want to take what you have. 

 

 

Been there seen it. Good write up but seems the cops did not do the job properly in this case anyway, sat on their fingers for an hour before approaching the shooter.  They must be getting soft over there because not my experience there 35 years ago. 

[ordnance]

19 minutes ago, Scully said:

Schools in some well armed and or unstable societies have armed personnel on the payroll. It’s stupid not to. 

 

That’s great if there’s something suitable to hand, whereas in reality the truly atrocious aspect of this is that the criminals come armed but the victim is prevented by law to carry anything effective with which to protect themselves. Politicians would rather we were victims than run the risk of allowing us to be armed with anything. 
Criminals do not target those they deem able to defend themselves, which is why we see pictures of 80 odd year old ladies bruised and battered beyond recognition in the media.
This is also one of the reasons the gunman in America targeted a school…..no defence. 

My post was that people in the UK have to right to defend themselves and properly etc, it's not just in America. What they can or can't use is another issue. 

16 minutes ago, Walker570 said:

Been there seen it. Good write up but seems the cops did not do the job properly in this case anyway, sat on their fingers for an hour before approaching the shooter.  They must be getting soft over there because not my experience there 35 years ago. 

The police would do the same in GB, wait for armed response.

[Scully]

1 minute ago, ordnance said:

My post was that people in the UK have to right to defend themselves and properly etc, it's not just in America. What they can or can't use is another issue. 

Yes, they have the right, but not the means.
The former without the latter is totally meaningless simply because no one can prepare. 

[ordnance]

Quote

 

Schools in some well armed and or unstable societies have armed personnel on the payroll. It’s stupid not to. 

This is also one of the reasons the gunman in America targeted a school…..no defence. 

 

Some schools in America have armed security some don't. Barricade all the schools arm all the teachers, it won't stop a induvial determined to attack children. They are scum, but that doesn't mean they are stupid, make it harder to target children at school they will just attack them else ware, on their way to school school bus etc, school outings, and numerous other places children congregate.