Do I need to send my sgc off for an rfd transfer?

[DannyT]

Hi all,

Im in the process of buying a section 2 shotgun via rfd transfer as I live along way from the seller. 

The seller has asked that I send my sgc so it can be filled out prior to the gun being posted to my local rfd.

I thought that as the gun is being shipped via rfd then it’s not necessary for me to send my sgc to the seller. 
 

Is this correct, or am I missing something?

Thanks  

 

Edited August 2, 2022 by DannyT

[oowee]

You need to send it so that the new gun can be entered.

[scarecrow243]

that is the way its supposed to be done but most r.f.d. will take the gun enter it into their books then send it to the other r.f.d. and he would enter it on your certificate i would not post my certificate to anyone as it can get lost in the mail etc or not sent back

[DannyT]

27 minutes ago, scarecrow243 said:

that is the way its supposed to be done but most r.f.d. will take the gun enter it into their books then send it to the other r.f.d. and he would enter it on your certificate i would not post my certificate to anyone as it can get lost in the mail etc or not sent back

That’s exactly what I thought. Why would it need to be sent off to the seller when they are entering the gun into the books of an rfd, who is then sending it to be entered in to the books of my rfd, and we are paying for the service. 
 

 

[oowee]

36 minutes ago, scarecrow243 said:

that is the way its supposed to be done but most r.f.d. will take the gun enter it into their books then send it to the other r.f.d. and he would enter it on your certificate i would not post my certificate to anyone as it can get lost in the mail etc or not sent back

Are you saying most rfd's are dodgy? They certainly used to do it like that but the last two I have used would not entertain it anymore. To the point that I had to do pretty much everything except wrap it and post it 🙂 

[eddoakley]

1 hour ago, scarecrow243 said:

that is the way its supposed to be done but most r.f.d. will take the gun enter it into their books then send it to the other r.f.d. and he would enter it on your certificate i would not post my certificate to anyone as it can get lost in the mail etc or not sent back

This has been covered loads of times.

It seems more sensible to do things the way you suggest but it is not the correct way and any rfd doing it that way could face issues. The only person allowed to enter the gun onto the buyer's certificate is the seller.

If the rfd accepts that roll he is liable for tax and vat on the profit he makes but more importantly he is liable for the warranty on the gun.

So while it is possible the first rfd would accept the gun as theirs and all that might entail. Sell it on to the second rfd who accepts the gun is theirs and they sell it to the end user. The second rfd is then responsible for the warranty on that gun (that they have only ever unwrapped and handed over).

So in answer to the OP: YES, you must send your certificate to the seller for them to enter the gun onto it. They then ask their rfd to send it to yours and you collect from them with the gun already on your certificate.

Edd

[Fellside]

Sorry to confuse things further, but the constabulary you’re receiving it in to is the deciding factor. In other words some do insist on the SGC being signed off by the selling RFD, while some are OK with the receiving RFD signing it off. 

I recently had a gun transferred to a neighbouring county to avoid sending my SGC off in the post - as my own county constabulary insisted on seller sign off. 

There is variability and hence a little confusion. Best to check what the police insist upon in your area. 

[Lloyd90]

31 minutes ago, Fellside said:

Sorry to confuse things further, but the constabulary you’re receiving it in to is the deciding factor. In other words some do insist on the SGC being signed off by the selling RFD, while some are OK with the receiving RFD signing it off. 

I recently had a gun transferred to a neighbouring county to avoid sending my SGC off in the post - as my own county constabulary insisted on seller sign off. 

There is variability and hence a little confusion. Best to check what the police insist upon in your area. 

This is the best advise. As well as checking what your RFD is doing. 
 

As others have found; I have had several RFD’s now refuse to do it the ‘old way’ where they sign it onto their books and then onto my certificate. 
 

Posting it off to the seller to enter on your certificate and post back to you is apparently the ‘proper way’ to do it and some forces are insisting it is done this way from now on.

 

The ultimate answer is get the green light from your local Licencing department. 

[Fellside]

5 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

The ultimate answer is get the green light from your local Licencing department. 

100%

[timps]

There is no confusion  just look at “the guidance to anybody who sells…. to the holder of this certificate”  on your very own certificate which says.

“If you are selling shotgun(s) which will be sent or posted to another dealer for the buyer to collect in person you should complete this table and notify the police. The dealer who actually hands over the shotgun(s) should not complete the table or notify the police (except in circumstances which may require police investigation as above).”

All certificate instructions provided by the Firearms Rules 1998 are legally binding therefore the seller would be in breach if they did not comply the ones written on your certificate which clearly state the seller has to fill table 2 in.

[Rewulf]

17 minutes ago, timps said:

All certificate instructions provided by the Firearms Rules 1998 are legally binding therefore the seller would be in breach if they did not comply the ones written on your certificate which clearly state the seller has to fill table 2 in.

If the seller is the (private) owner of the gun selling through the RFD(s) then you are correct.

But if the private seller 'sells' the gun to the RFD , and the RFD then 'sells' it to receiving RFD , who then fills the ticket out upon collection by the new owner.
Technically, no laws have been broken , and cert conditions have been met.

I have heard some RFDs say that the police 'dont like' them doing this, how on earth they would know, Im not sure.
But this was generally how it was done a few years back.

[timps]

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

If the seller is the (private) owner of the gun selling through the RFD(s) then you are correct.

But if the private seller 'sells' the gun to the RFD , and the RFD then 'sells' it to receiving RFD , who then fills the ticket out upon collection by the new owner.
Technically, no laws have been broken , and cert conditions have been met.

I have heard some RFDs say that the police 'dont like' them doing this, how on earth they would know, Im not sure.
But this was generally how it was done a few years back.

Of course the conditions have been met, you have just bought the gun off the final RFD and as they are now the seller they have to fill out table 2 as stated. Lucky you as you now have the protection from The Consumer Rights Act 2015 on your new gun rather than caveat emptor buying from a private individual.

Chances of being caught depends on the paper trail, if one of the RFD enters it as a transfer for the purposes of HMRC,  VAT or just stocktaking purposes then the books don’t match up. If this is spotted and from what I have been told, anecdotally of course, is some forces have spotted this type of discrepancy  and they are warned do it again and bye bye RFD cert.

If you can find a final RFD in the chain that is prepared to risk his business and write SOLD on table 2 when they are taking no payment for the gun itself, issuing no receipt or invoice, paying no VAT or tax and denying the Consumer Rights Act 2015 should a fault develop then go for it. I know when HMRC audited my company they left no stone unturned and I wouldn’t be writing sold in any ledger for something I hadn’t actually sold and collected the appropriate tax for.

Just be mindful that doing it the way you state and not actually selling means you are breaking the statutory guidance on your cert which does have consequences should you be caught, whether it can easily be proved or not is something for all the parties involved to decide.

The first questions I would ask if i suspected anything,  were is the receipt and who did you pay?

I certainly wouldn’t risk a business over it that’s for sure.

[Rewulf]

2 minutes ago, timps said:

The first questions I would ask if i suspected anything,  were is the receipt and who did you pay?

I certainly wouldn’t risk a business over it that’s for sure.

I see your points , and thats why I alluded to the 'police dont like it' comment.
However, without going into specifics, I can tell you there are plenty of RFDs still doing this , and dont believe they are doing anything wrong.

As far as the 'sale' goes, tax VAT ect , if the gun costs 1 p , I dont think we have issues, and no, theres nothing illegal there.
Like you say, the problem comes when original private buyer and seller admit to someone investigating , who they actually paid for said gun.
The scenario is highly unlikely though.

[timps]

29 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

I see your points , and thats why I alluded to the 'police dont like it' comment.
However, without going into specifics, I can tell you there are plenty of RFDs still doing this , and dont believe they are doing anything wrong.

As far as the 'sale' goes, tax VAT ect , if the gun costs 1 p , I dont think we have issues, and no, theres nothing illegal there.
Like you say, the problem comes when original private buyer and seller admit to someone investigating , who they actually paid for said gun.
The scenario is highly unlikely though.

I know there are plenty still doing it, but it doesn’t alter the fact it is a statutory offence that you could face prosecution for. Even you as the buyer are not following the guidance on your own certificate so are not in the clear if some jobs worth goes to town on it. As I always say it is your choice as an individual but trying to claim ignorance of something that is written on your own certificate is a hard sell so be aware of the potential  risks if you didn’t actually pay the final RFD for your gun.

Buying and selling numerous guns for 1p and not showing a profit is a sure fire way to get HMRC taking a very serious interest in your affairs. They are not that stupid and a normal business would not operate in that way.

When they investigate further and find that you have just bought and sold numerous guns valued at between  £1K to 3k for 1p and no profit, the true answer of not its not a tax fraud or money laundering but I was trying to cheat the Firearms act maybe isn’t the answer as a RFD that you want to give a government employee.

[Old farrier]

There’s a reason the licensing authority ask for face to face transfer 

think about it 

 

get in your car drive up look at it try it buy it 

do the transfer face to face 

or buy from a local dealer 

[Rewulf]

26 minutes ago, timps said:

When they investigate further and find that you have just bought and sold numerous guns valued at between  £1K to 3k for 1p and no profit, the true answer of not its not a tax fraud or money laundering but I was trying to cheat the Firearms act maybe isn’t the answer as a RFD that you want to give a government employee.

I think youre taking it to extremes , and its not really worth arguing about, if the RFDs are happy to risk revocation, HMRC investigations, and doing time for 'fraud' , they are either stupid , reckless, or the threat of such things happening arent that real ?
Either way , its not my problem.

Im sure there is plenty of scrutiny in RFD transactions already, so its up to them to take the risks , if they exist.

3 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

There’s a reason the licensing authority ask for face to face transfer 

think about it 

 

get in your car drive up look at it try it buy it 

do the transfer face to face 

or buy from a local dealer 

Im sure there has been plenty of RFD transfers conducted from these pages.
For some , its completely impractical to 'drive up there' so would be happy to pay RFD transfer fees, even if it meant sending your ticket first.

[Fellside]

14 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

I think youre taking it to extremes , and its not really worth arguing about, if the RFDs are happy to risk revocation, HMRC investigations, and doing time for 'fraud' , they are either stupid , reckless, or the threat of such things happening arent that real ?
Either way , its not my problem.

Im sure there is plenty of scrutiny in RFD transactions already, so its up to them to take the risks , if they exist.

Im sure there has been plenty of RFD transfers conducted from these pages.
For some , its completely impractical to 'drive up there' so would be happy to pay RFD transfer fees, even if it meant sending your ticket first.

There’s no point in quoting the SGC transfer info etc or interpreting the home office guidelines etc. It is the regional police force who dictate protocols to their RFDs, and there is variability. Just comply with your force’s protocols - it’s as easy as that. 

[Rewulf]

8 minutes ago, Fellside said:

There’s no point in quoting the SGC transfer info etc or interpreting the home office guidelines etc. It is the regional police force who dictate protocols to their RFDs, and there is variability. Just comply with your force’s protocols - it’s as easy as that. 

Im sure we all would , if we knew them, the procedure seems vague, hence threads like this that crop up regularly.
On the rare occasions I buy a gun remotely, I just ask the seller how he wants to do it, and he arranges with an RFD his end , and I with one my end , they sort it , and I get the gun.
Ive never had to send my ticket.

[Fellside]

8 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Im sure we all would , if we knew them, the procedure seems vague, hence threads like this that crop up regularly.
On the rare occasions I buy a gun remotely, I just ask the seller how he wants to do it, and he arranges with an RFD his end , and I with one my end , they sort it , and I get the gun.
Ive never had to send my ticket.

I completely understand re vague etc. A quick call to firearms was easy the last time I did it. They were very helpful. I don’t know what it’s like phoning them in this post Covid phase we are in…? 

[Rewulf]

1 minute ago, Fellside said:

I completely understand re vague etc. A quick call to firearms was easy the last time I did it. They were very helpful. I don’t know what it’s like phoning them in this post Covid phase we are in…? 

In Notts , very hard work !

They take calls between 10am and 12 noon, virtually impossible to get through to them.
As a club sec , I have personal numbers and emails for FEO s , they dont answer them either !

[timps]

1 hour ago, Fellside said:

There’s no point in quoting the SGC transfer info etc or interpreting the home office guidelines etc. It is the regional police force who dictate protocols to their RFDs, and there is variability. Just comply with your force’s protocols - it’s as easy as that. 

That is not correct, In this case it’s covered by The Firearms Rules 1998; (Rule 1(6), Part II of Schedule 1, Rule 5(6) and Part II of Schedule 2):

All certificate instructions provided by the Firearms Rules 1998 are legally binding throughout England and Wales, Regional police forces have no say in it whatsoever.

These instructions have a common wording which all forces must use, it was update 2021, I believe, so the clause is either 4(b) on my new certificate 2021 or clause  (3) if pre 2021 my old certificate.

If you don’t believe me look at your own certificate, I’ve quoted it before, it quite clearly tells you the seller has to fill in table 2 not the dealer handing it over. It doesn’t need any more explanation than that.

The only grey area is can the dealer handing it over pretend to be the seller.

The answer is yes as long as he/she doesn’t get caught and hauled over the coals for it.

The variation comes as some forces are now rigidly enforcing it and making it quite clear it’s against the law. Others probably don’t even check but make no mistake it’s against the law for anyone other than the genuine seller to fill in table 2 in England and Wales.

The chances of getting caught is the only thing open for debate.

[Fellside]

36 minutes ago, timps said:

That is not correct, In this case it’s covered by The Firearms Rules 1998; (Rule 1(6), Part II of Schedule 1, Rule 5(6) and Part II of Schedule 2):

All certificate instructions provided by the Firearms Rules 1998 are legally binding throughout England and Wales, Regional police forces have no say in it whatsoever.

These instructions have a common wording which all forces must use, it was update 2021, I believe, so the clause is either 4(b) on my new certificate 2021 or clause  (3) if pre 2021 my old certificate.

If you don’t believe me look at your own certificate, I’ve quoted it before, it quite clearly tells you the seller has to fill in table 2 not the dealer handing it over. It doesn’t need any more explanation than that.

The only grey area is can the dealer handing it over pretend to be the seller.

The answer is yes as long as he/she doesn’t get caught and hauled over the coals for it.

The variation comes as some forces are now rigidly enforcing it and making it quite clear it’s against the law. Others probably don’t even check but make no mistake it’s against the law for anyone other than the genuine seller to fill in table 2 in England and Wales.

The chances of getting caught is the only thing open for debate.

Try telling Police Scotland that…and the various forces who have different approaches. I don’t make the rules, I merely comment on what I observe. In other words, I don’t argue and just follow THEIR process. Not a lot of choice in that really - is there?
 

[timps]

8 minutes ago, Fellside said:

Try telling Police Scotland that…and the various forces who have different approaches. I don’t make the rules, I merely comment on what I observe. In other words, I don’t argue and just follow THEIR process. Not a lot of choice in that really - is there?
 

Hence why I was very careful to mention only England and Wales and not Scotland. 
 

But I doubt any police force is going to tell you to ignore the legally binding instructions written on your certificate to follow a process that would be illegal in the eyes of the firearms act.  
 

Other processes such as compulsory medical reports etc. are open to interpretation as the act does not expressly forbid them.  But the act does forbid the dealer handing over the gun from filling out table 2 if they are not the seller and this is written clear as day on your certificate. 
 

[Fellside]

11 minutes ago, timps said:

Hence why I was very careful to mention only England and Wales and not Scotland. 
 

But I doubt any police force is going to tell you to ignore the legally binding instructions written on your certificate to follow a process that would be illegal in the eyes of the firearms act.  
 

Other processes such as compulsory medical reports etc. are open to interpretation as the act does not expressly forbid them.  But the act does forbid the dealer handing over the gun from filling out table 2 if they are not the seller and this is written clear as day on your certificate. 
 

As I say - I just follow the rules re the relevant constabulary. If they don’t appear to fall in line with this Act or that Act, be my guest, take it up with them. 

[Wylye]

4 hours ago, timps said:

Of course the conditions have been met, you have just bought the gun off the final RFD and as they are now the seller they have to fill out table 2 as stated. Lucky you as you now have the protection from The Consumer Rights Act 2015 on your new gun rather than caveat emptor buying from a private individual.

Chances of being caught depends on the paper trail, if one of the RFD enters it as a transfer for the purposes of HMRC,  VAT or just stocktaking purposes then the books don’t match up. If this is spotted and from what I have been told, anecdotally of course, is some forces have spotted this type of discrepancy  and they are warned do it again and bye bye RFD cert.

If you can find a final RFD in the chain that is prepared to risk his business and write SOLD on table 2 when they are taking no payment for the gun itself, issuing no receipt or invoice, paying no VAT or tax and denying the Consumer Rights Act 2015 should a fault develop then go for it. I know when HMRC audited my company they left no stone unturned and I wouldn’t be writing sold in any ledger for something I hadn’t actually sold and collected the appropriate tax for.

Just be mindful that doing it the way you state and not actually selling means you are breaking the statutory guidance on your cert which does have consequences should you be caught, whether it can easily be proved or not is something for all the parties involved to decide.

The first questions I would ask if i suspected anything,  were is the receipt and who did you pay?

I certainly wouldn’t risk a business over it that’s for sure.

This ^^