Browning ou weak ejectors

[Gunman]

Thats what I was advised by a Belgian gunmaker who rebuilt B25's and I have fitted a lot of Browning extractors and others since then .I assume its to ensure  the extractors do not prevent the gun from closing properly  as its also easier when fitting new extractors than trying to " black down" on an un-assembled gun .

[Shotkam]

7 hours ago, Gunman said:

Thats what I was advised by a Belgian gunmaker who rebuilt B25's and I have fitted a lot of Browning extractors and others since then .I assume its to ensure  the extractors do not prevent the gun from closing properly  as its also easier when fitting new extractors than trying to " black down" on an un-assembled gun .

Good information thankyou.

I think I will take the gun to UK gun repairs at Taunton, as a rim cutter is heading towards £200 delivered.

Would anyone recommend them ?

I know they will give a fixed price.

[mossy835]

i live just up the road from uk gun repairs dennis and brian are very good,i buy  guns off them, and they do a good job on repairs,

[Shotkam]

On 21/08/2022 at 20:20, mossy835 said:

i live just up the road from uk gun repairs dennis and brian are very good,i buy  guns off them, and they do a good job on repairs,

Thankyou, that's good to know for the future.

Even better news is the new extractors have arrived and the rims are cut to perfection !

The fit of the whole components is almost there as well. Plan to get the smoke going later and the final file to fit.

I am amazed the production of these parts for a 35 year old gun is so close to the tolerances of the gun.

I'll get a few images up.

 

[old'un]

2 hours ago, Shotkam said:

Thankyou, that's good to know for the future.

Even better news is the new extractors have arrived and the rims are cut to perfection !

The fit of the whole components is almost there as well. Plan to get the smoke going later and the final file to fit.

I am amazed the production of these parts for a 35 year old gun is so close to the tolerances of the gun.

I'll get a few images up.

 

That's interesting, wasn't sure if they came with the rims already cut, if as you say, they are close to fitting with just the minimal amount of work it will save you a few £.

 

yep, put a few pictures up so we can see what's going on.

[ditchman]

3 hours ago, Shotkam said:

Thankyou, that's good to know for the future.

Even better news is the new extractors have arrived and the rims are cut to perfection !

The fit of the whole components is almost there as well. Plan to get the smoke going later and the final file to fit.

I am amazed the production of these parts for a 35 year old gun is so close to the tolerances of the gun.

I'll get a few images up.

 

have some emery paper and a small sheet of glass to hand as well

[DUNKS]

Just realized I have one of thee rim cutting tools in 12g. Didn't realize they were so expensive. Not a tool you get to use very often.

[Shotkam]

2 hours ago, ditchman said:

have some emery paper and a small sheet of glass to hand as well

Yes, I went for the final finish with wet and dry - mirror finish.

After a lot of smoking the part and careful fettling, the top extractor is finished and fitted.

It glides in and out like silk with no play whatsoever.

Tested on an empty and a snap cap and there is no difference whatsoever !

I am fairly disappointed at this stage of the process, although the extractors were worn out and needed replacement.

 

There is some play in the extensions, but with the ejector springs already replaced that only leaves the striker mechanism in the fore end.

 

[JohnfromUK]

6 minutes ago, Shotkam said:

Tested on an empty and a snap cap and there is no difference whatsoever !

I'm afraid I cannot say I'm surprised.  In my (limited to Beretta and Merkel) o/u experience, the ejectors are quite 'limp'.  In fact I don't recall any o/u with fierce ejectors.  All mine work well enough to do the job intended, but in a rather limp and listless manner.

On the other hand, many s/s guns have really powerful (much too powerful in my opinion) ejectors.  As someone who instinctively (and really slightly stupidly) puts their hand over the ejectors to catch and pocket (tidiness, not reloading) the empties - I prefer the less vicious ejectors.  I handled someone's s/s (an AyA I think) once on which he had deliberately had the ejectors 'tamed' and it ejected well and was less noticeably stiff to close after ejecting ......

[ditchman]

46 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

I'm afraid I cannot say I'm surprised.  In my (limited to Beretta and Merkel) o/u experience, the ejectors are quite 'limp'.  In fact I don't recall any o/u with fierce ejectors.  All mine work well enough to do the job intended, but in a rather limp and listless manner.

On the other hand, many s/s guns have really powerful (much too powerful in my opinion) ejectors.  As someone who instinctively (and really slightly stupidly) puts their hand over the ejectors to catch and pocket (tidiness, not reloading) the empties - I prefer the less vicious ejectors.  I handled someone's s/s (an AyA I think) once on which he had deliberately had the ejectors 'tamed' and it ejected well and was less noticeably stiff to close after ejecting ......

..my AYA Best quality sxs used to eject at least 20 ft.....it almost used to give me a stiffy...often the talking point at lunch......i once warned a picker upperer not to stand so close because of the ejector...he smiled and thought i was another rich stoopid he-haw....i ejected and one of the cases caught him on the bridge of his nose ...he bled like a stuck pig.....next time i saw him he was the other side of the fence line witha blood soaked hanky to his face....

[old'un]

4 minutes ago, ditchman said:

..my AYA Best quality sxs used to eject at least 20 ft.....it almost used to give me a stiffy...often the talking point at lunch......i once warned a picker upperer not to stand so close because of the ejector...he smiled and thought i was another rich stoopid he-haw....i ejected and one of the cases caught him on the bridge of his nose ...he bled like a stuck pig.....next time i saw him he was the other side of the fence line witha blood soaked hanky to his face....

What the stiffy?

[Shotkam]

Here are some images from parts arrival, through the smoking / fitting process and a finished extractor.

 

 

[JohnfromUK]

10 minutes ago, Shotkam said:

Here are some images from parts arrival

It arrives with a nice finish doesn't it.  I assumed it might have been much 'less highly finished'.

[Shotkam]

58 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

It arrives with a nice finish doesn't it.  I assumed it might have been much 'less highly finished'.

The cut rim was the better finish, the rest not as good as it looked.

Needed to file several though of the extractor to bring it a though below the breech face I got a decent  mirror finish on the extractor face though afterwards with a bit of work.

It's a shame it made no difference whatsoever to the ejection of cartridges , which really surprised me.

Stripped the ejector hammers out since fitting the new extractor and I can see absolutely nothing wrong with them.

Still searching for a solution following on from what seemed was the solution, but turned out not to be even though the extractors needed replacement.

Edited August 24, 2022 by Shotkam

[Shotkam]

Well, having done extensive research and spoken to UK gun repairs near Wellington, believe it or not there is no solution that they know of !

They said, even if I pack it off the gun to Browning,  it will come back from them with the same issue.

Common sense tells me that it could be cured by fitting higher power springs instead of the standard Browning springs, but of course that could lead to a host of other issues.

This is extremely annoying as when used on any Sim Day, as the guns gets hotter I have to pull every cartridge out manually !

I would welcome any innovative solutions to my problem should anyone care to offer any.

[ditchman]

8 minutes ago, Shotkam said:

Well, having done extensive research and spoken to UK gun repairs near Wellington, believe it or not there is no solution that they know of !

They said, even if I pack it off the gun to Browning,  it will come back from them with the same issue.

Common sense tells me that it could be cured by fitting higher power springs instead of the standard Browning springs, but of course that could lead to a host of other issues.

This is extremely annoying as when used on any Sim Day, as the guns gets hotter I have to pull every cartridge out manually !

I would welcome any innovative solutions to my problem should anyone care to offer any.

would changing the shape /definition of the extractor help.....are the quadrant "moons" too round and as a result the extractor rides over the spent cartridge ?...if the quadrants were "sharper" they would grab the rim of the cartridge better  

im not a gunsmith............just an idea !

[TIGHTCHOKE]

13 minutes ago, Shotkam said:

Well, having done extensive research and spoken to UK gun repairs near Wellington, believe it or not there is no solution that they know of !

They said, even if I pack it off the gun to Browning,  it will come back from them with the same issue.

Common sense tells me that it could be cured by fitting higher power springs instead of the standard Browning springs, but of course that could lead to a host of other issues.

This is extremely annoying as when used on any Sim Day, as the guns gets hotter I have to pull every cartridge out manually !

I would welcome any innovative solutions to my problem should anyone care to offer any.

I said so when you started this quest.

[Shotkam]

2 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

I said so when you started this quest.

You did.

Since then I have replaced the extractors which were worn out as the cartridge rim passed the recess on the extractor.

[enfieldspares]

IMHO the channels on the gun where the ejector runs each side of the gun is worn out. On a SBS it's not a problem as the new ejectors can be made a larger diameter where they pass through the holed drilled for them in the barrels. Your issue is that you bought factory ejectors made to the factory tolerances of a new gun. I am sorry it has been a disappointing resolution. Might I suggest as I do?

So in effect its "legs" will be undersize in relation to your (possibly) worn channels. My advice (as now you have a spare set) is to tack some small dabs of weld on the top and bottom of the ejector legs and then file those down to make them become a set of ejectors with greater width legs. That should sold any slackness and restore the relationship of the ejector rim to the cartridge as was intended when the gun was new.

You might try to "test" this by using Araldite to glue a shim onto the legs or maybe, even a dab of soft solder as a temporary try out to see if wider ejector legs where they bear in the channel solve it. Before resorting to welding.

The cheap "bodger's fix" would be to peen the the top and bottom surfaces to again reduce the effective spare gap between channel and ejector legs. I'd not advise it.

 

Edited September 26, 2022 by enfieldspares

[Shotkam]

23 hours ago, enfieldspares said:

IMHO the channels on the gun where the ejector runs each side of the gun is worn out. On a SBS it's not a problem as the new ejectors can be made a larger diameter where they pass through the holed drilled for them in the barrels. Your issue is that you bought factory ejectors made to the factory tolerances of a new gun. I am sorry it has been a disappointing resolution. Might I suggest as I do?

So in effect its "legs" will be undersize in relation to your (possibly) worn channels. My advice (as now you have a spare set) is to tack some small dabs of weld on the top and bottom of the ejector legs and then file those down to make them become a set of ejectors with greater width legs. That should sold any slackness and restore the relationship of the ejector rim to the cartridge as was intended when the gun was new.

You might try to "test" this by using Araldite to glue a shim onto the legs or maybe, even a dab of soft solder as a temporary try out to see if wider ejector legs where they bear in the channel solve it. Before resorting to welding.

The cheap "bodger's fix" would be to peen the the top and bottom surfaces to again reduce the effective spare gap between channel and ejector legs. I'd not advise it.

 

Thankyou - that's interesting.

I wonder why the gunsmiths I have spoken to did not suggest that, especially as most of them were well experienced and in their 60's.

I have the equipment and tools to do that.

I previously tightened the gun by replacing metal wear on the 'locking bolt' with weld, then filed to achieve the required tolerance.

Having checked there is only a small amount of play in the dovetails.

The extensions I should not bother to address as they only have minimal play - or perhaps I should ?

[enfieldspares]

16 minutes ago, Shotkam said:

Thankyou - that's interesting.

Sherlock Holmes gunsmithing I am afraid. What was it he said? That when you eliminate every else that it could be that which remains, however unlikely, must be the solution. Or some such. 

[Shotkam]

On 26/09/2022 at 13:33, ditchman said:

would changing the shape /definition of the extractor help.....are the quadrant "moons" too round and as a result the extractor rides over the spent cartridge ?...if the quadrants were "sharper" they would grab the rim of the cartridge better  

im not a gunsmith............just an idea !

 

25 minutes ago, Shotkam said:

Thankyou - that's interesting.

I wonder why the gunsmiths I have spoken to did not suggest that, especially as most of them were well experienced and in their 60's.

I have the equipment and tools to do that.

I previously tightened the gun by replacing metal wear on the 'locking bolt' with weld, then filed to achieve the required tolerance.

Having checked there is only a small amount of play in the dovetails.

The extensions I should not bother to address as they only have minimal play - or perhaps I should ?

No they definitely don't ride over with the new extractors fitted - good observation though.

 

[Shotkam]

6 minutes ago, enfieldspares said:

Sherlock Holmes gunsmithing I am afraid. What was it he said? That when you eliminate every else that it could be that which remains, however unlikely, must be the solution. Or some such. 

That's an excellent observation and I have a feeling that is correct -   When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.” 

Sometimes we humans can't see the wood for the trees.

I think I have underestimated the level of tolerance that is required for a machine like a gun requires to operate at its optimum.

Free play in the dovetails of the extractors and/or the extractor extensions I would suggest needs to be virtually eliminated for a gun such as this, which has weak ejection straight from the factory on day 1, from what I am led to believe.

So I plan to build up the factory replacement extractor and the extension on one barrel with weld and file to fit as I did with the locking bolt.

Then all will be revealed !

I do plan to polish the chambers though, as the factory finish leaves much to be desired.

[ditchman]

you must update us please........very interesting...as im a tinker with no purpose anymore..

[enfieldspares]

59 minutes ago, Shotkam said:

Sometimes we humans can't see the wood for the trees.

I've suggested the step as I had a similar, but different, experience with my late father's gun. The thing would eject perfectly if a little "weak" (the price you pay for a gun using the Westley Richards "box" system of ejectors rather than Southgate's system or that used by Boss). 

But what it would also do if the right barrel only were fire would give a "vibration" or a "knock" that would make an unfired cartridge in the left barrel back out and (as modern crimp closure cartridges with shorter wads were being used) and then fall from the chamber out of the gun.

It wasn't firing the left ejector which correctly remained in the position it should do but just giving this "knock" that transmitted enough inertia to the unfired cartridge to make it back out. Odd indeed!

I took the gun to the arrogant and ultimately useless Simon Clode at Westley Richards. Thinking that as it used their system he'd at least be knowledgeable to sort it. Which he said he had done. Gun came back to me and it still had the problem.

I queried that with Clode and his dismissive reply was "It's an old gun. It can't be fixed." It seem what they'd tried was to remove metal from the legs so as to remove any tightness of the one rubbing on the other and transmitting that "knock".

So I did as i should have done and took it into the "trade" that then still hung on at Price Street. The gunsmith that looked at it said "It needs new ejectors. It'll cost £300. If it doesn't work I won't ask you to pay me for them."

Well they did work and what he did was make the legs of these new ejectors to be as tight a fit as possible so there was a tight friction slip fit with the other leg. Intuitively the exact opposite of what you'd think to do.

So it was indeed fixed. By someone with just a little bit more knowledge and "nowse" than the overbearing Simon Clode. I admire what Clode did with his late father's company, for sure, a superb success, but my God he could be lacking in the humility stakes.

Which was odd as his father Walter Clode was one of the nicest people you'd have hoped to meet.

Edited September 27, 2022 by enfieldspares