Serious research on lead fragments left in birds

[ehb102]

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0268089

You may see this in the news today. What is interesting to me is the debunking of the idea that lead leaves no fragments. 

 

 

[cash1]

Grief! I must be should be dead.

 

[old'un]

Yep, I did see this more condensed version of the report some days ago…https://www.myscience.uk/en/news/2022/pheasant_meat_sold_for_food_found_to_contain_many_tiny_shards_of_toxic_lead-2022-cambridge

the study I would like to see is how many deaths there have been from eating game containing these lead fragments.

[Newbie to this]

15 minutes ago, old'un said:

the study I would like to see is how many deaths there have been from eating game containing these lead fragments.

But that won't meet/fuel the agenda.

[ehb102]

20 minutes ago, old'un said:

Yep, I did see this more condensed version of the report some days ago…https://www.myscience.uk/en/news/2022/pheasant_meat_sold_for_food_found_to_contain_many_tiny_shards_of_toxic_lead-2022-cambridge

the study I would like to see is how many deaths there have been from eating game containing these lead fragments.

Interesting isn't it? Also what other health indicators are affected, and at what point is there a danger? After all, we are expected to tolerate certain levels of pollutants in most things. But not as much in our food as in the US where they specify how much rat you are allowed per ton. 

[Rewulf]

4 hours ago, ehb102 said:

Interesting isn't it? Also what other health indicators are affected, and at what point is there a danger? After all, we are expected to tolerate certain levels of pollutants in most things. But not as much in our food as in the US where they specify how much rat you are allowed per ton. 

Whats interesting is the timing, these and other studies results, all damning lead , come along ready to be used in evidence for the HSE consultation.

This was released last week.

https://phys.org/news/2022-08-exposure-bullets-big-game.html

[Scully]

Conveniently overlooking that there are ‘trace’ elements of lead in most root vegetables especially potatoes if I recall. And chocolate. 🙂

[kitchrat]

This very interesting article has tempted me out of Pigeon Forum retirement!

It seems to be a very competent and through piece of work, carried out with the sole intent of finding lead fragments. I wonder who commissioned it?

However, if the findings are accurate, and I have no reason to believe otherwise, it ignores the 1st of the objectives named in the title: "Implications for food safety.."

If lead were as toxic as were are led to believe and as widespread in game as the article suggests, the Edwardian landowners of the early 20th century would have died not from lead fired at them by the Germans but from eating shot game.

In fact, the findings of the article suggest lead must be far less toxic than advertised but this is not discussed.

This fear of lead is one of the new "religions" we have been spoon-fed, led by "Cult Priests" like BASC. I have had several email conversations with BASC executives on the subject. They state that "the evidence showing lead damages the general environment" (NOT wetlands which is a different ball-game) "is indisputable". When asked to produce evidence, they have a sheaf of documents about wetlands and one case where a pellet was found in the crop of a grey partridge. Nothing suggests the partridge was harmed by mistakenly picking the pellet up. The final "evidence" is that lead has been removed from gasoline and that lead-based paints are banned.

If lead were easily absorbed and deadly, we would see piles of dead foxes, red kites and buzzards, which clear up any pricked birds. All are flourishing.

When I'm in Canada, I live near a  huge lead smelter (Trail BC). In the early 20th century, pollution from the plant was so bad that most trees in the forest within a 10 mile radius were killed. The plant was cleaned up and the forest is re-growing but lead levels remain very high in the soil, ground water and vegetation. However, fish live in the creeks and rivers, ospreys and bald eagles feed on them. Deer consume the grasses and cougars consume the deer. All are healthy.

So why do we buy into this "lead is deadly" religion? Or the other "religions" of today, like "We can control Covid 19", "Masks work", "repeated applications of a vaccine which neither stops you getting it or transmitting it is essential".

"CO2 is responsible for global warming and we can do something about it" "Net zero is possible", "Electric cars will save the world" "Ethanol in fuel will help" .

Rants over!!

I had better go and lie down in a darkened room and wait for goose season to open in 2 weeks!!

[Smudger687]

On 27/08/2022 at 10:26, old'un said:

Yep, I did see this more condensed version of the report some days ago…https://www.myscience.uk/en/news/2022/pheasant_meat_sold_for_food_found_to_contain_many_tiny_shards_of_toxic_lead-2022-cambridge

the study I would like to see is how many deaths there have been from eating game containing these lead fragments.

I have to admit, this is a real annoyance to me whenever I read words to the effect of "no one has died from eating lead shot game"

Acute lead poisoning leading to death is never, ever going to occur with eating any form of lead shot game unless you're eating a staggering amount of it. The really sinister effects of lead have always come from the sub-acute exposures, particularly in young children.

It's worth noting that even when leaded petrol was in use throughout the world, people weren't dropping dead from acute lead poisoning, but children were suffering from reduced IQ and neurological disorders, adults were suffering higher rates of cardiovascular disease and degenerative neurological disease.

[kitchrat]

54 minutes ago, Smudger687 said:

I have to admit, this is a real annoyance to me whenever I read words to the effect of "no one has died from eating lead shot game"

Acute lead poisoning leading to death is never, ever going to occur with eating any form of lead shot game unless you're eating a staggering amount of it. The really sinister effects of lead have always come from the sub-acute exposures, particularly in young children.

It's worth noting that even when leaded petrol was in use throughout the world, people weren't dropping dead from acute lead poisoning, but children were suffering from reduced IQ and neurological disorders, adults were suffering higher rates of cardiovascular disease and degenerative neurological disease.

"It's worth noting that even when leaded petrol was in use throughout the world, people weren't dropping dead from acute lead poisoning, but children were suffering from reduced IQ and neurological disorders, adults were suffering higher rates of cardiovascular disease and degenerative neurological disease."

And this was due to lead in petrol???  Any evidence which is not anecdotal?

[Smudger687]

1 hour ago, kitchrat said:

"It's worth noting that even when leaded petrol was in use throughout the world, people weren't dropping dead from acute lead poisoning, but children were suffering from reduced IQ and neurological disorders, adults were suffering higher rates of cardiovascular disease and degenerative neurological disease."

And this was due to lead in petrol???  Any evidence which is not anecdotal?

Plenty if you'd be willing to take your fingers out of your ears and view things honestly. 

I have my own misgivings about the motivations behind the lead ban, but this idea that so many in the shooting world seem to subscribe to, namely that lead is assumed to be harmless unless people are dropping dead all over from lead poisoning, is patently false and a dishonest way to approach the matter. 

[kitchrat]

1 hour ago, Smudger687 said:

Plenty if you'd be willing to take your fingers out of your ears and view things honestly. 

I have my own misgivings about the motivations behind the lead ban, but this idea that so many in the shooting world seem to subscribe to, namely that lead is assumed to be harmless unless people are dropping dead all over from lead poisoning, is patently false and a dishonest way to approach the matter. 

On the contrary, rather than just trade insults I would admit that lead is not harmless but until there is proven evidence that eating shot game is or can be dangerous or even just harmful, I will stick to my opinion that we should ignore the scaremongering. That is my opinion, which I do not believe is "patently false and dishonest."

This type of posting is why I quit pigeon forum, not enough debate and too many insults thrown to people who hold different ideas.

 

[Stonepark]

Study misses a few matters which are with noting

 

1 - Most of the lead fragments appear to be contained in the wound track.

2 - No mention of total strikes on birds, just number of pellets within (i.e. no note of pass throughs and if certain fragments relate to these)

3 - Funded by RSPB

4 - No note to stop using High Velocity Ballistic tips to shoot deer (which causes the high number of particles in shot deer)

5 - Lead pellets are all subsonic when hitting target, only when they hit something harder than them do they "fragment" as the kinetic energy needs to be turned to heat or vibration to cause fragmentation)

6 - Larger pellets with more energy are more likely to fragment (Carries cartridge testing videos are a good example showing this)

7 - No evidence of true risk to people through swallowing, as most likely in majority of cases to pass through digestive system and be excreted.

8 - lead rules were set due to water pipes and poisoning, where the lead us already in solution and therefore easily adsorbed. Similarly in paint, the particles are similarly microscopic.

9 - No note on the dangers of swallowing Bismuth, Iron, Tungsten, Copper, Nickel, Zinc or any of the alternatives

I can probably think of a few more, but bed time.....

 

[old'un]

15 hours ago, Smudger687 said:

I have to admit, this is a real annoyance to me whenever I read words to the effect of "no one has died from eating lead shot game"

Acute lead poisoning leading to death is never, ever going to occur with eating any form of lead shot game unless you're eating a staggering amount of it. The really sinister effects of lead have always come from the sub-acute exposures, particularly in young children.

It's worth noting that even when leaded petrol was in use throughout the world, people weren't dropping dead from acute lead poisoning, but children were suffering from reduced IQ and neurological disorders, adults were suffering higher rates of cardiovascular disease and degenerative neurological disease.

There is no denying that lead is poisonous but the thread/link is about the effects of eating lead shot game.

“I have to admit, this is a real annoyance to me whenever I read words to the effect of "no one has died from eating lead shot game"

I would have thought it fairly obvious that any deaths directly related to lead poisoning from eating lead shot game would come to light in such research, including any finding that you refer to “cardiovascular disease and degenerative neurological disease”

so what are your thoughts on banning lead shot for the reasons given in the report?

[kitchrat]

On 29/08/2022 at 02:45, old'un said:

There is no denying that lead is poisonous but the thread/link is about the effects of eating lead shot game.

“I have to admit, this is a real annoyance to me whenever I read words to the effect of "no one has died from eating lead shot game"

I would have thought it fairly obvious that any deaths directly related to lead poisoning from eating lead shot game would come to light in such research, including any finding that you refer to “cardiovascular disease and degenerative neurological disease”

so what are your thoughts on banning lead shot for the reasons given in the report?

 

On 29/08/2022 at 02:45, old'un said:

"so what are your thoughts on banning lead shot for the reasons given in the report?"

My point exactly, no reasons are given, just the old religion that lead is dangerous.

On 28/08/2022 at 15:26, Stonepark said:

Study misses a few matters which are with noting

 

1 - Most of the lead fragments appear to be contained in the wound track.

2 - No mention of total strikes on birds, just number of pellets within (i.e. no note of pass throughs and if certain fragments relate to these)

3 - Funded by RSPB

4 - No note to stop using High Velocity Ballistic tips to shoot deer (which causes the high number of particles in shot deer)

5 - Lead pellets are all subsonic when hitting target, only when they hit something harder than them do they "fragment" as the kinetic energy needs to be turned to heat or vibration to cause fragmentation)

6 - Larger pellets with more energy are more likely to fragment (Carries cartridge testing videos are a good example showing this)

7 - No evidence of true risk to people through swallowing, as most likely in majority of cases to pass through digestive system and be excreted.

8 - lead rules were set due to water pipes and poisoning, where the lead us already in solution and therefore easily adsorbed. Similarly in paint, the particles are similarly microscopic.

9 - No note on the dangers of swallowing Bismuth, Iron, Tungsten, Copper, Nickel, Zinc or any of the alternatives

I can probably think of a few more, but bed time.....

 

At last, sensible debate, many thanks! I especially like points 7, 8 and 9. By the way, the US is considering banning tungsten because of "reproduction problems". Cheers,

[flippermaj]

So does anyone know what the actual risk to human health is of eating these very small fragments of lead ?

 

[Stonepark]

20 minutes ago, flippermaj said:

So does anyone know what the actual risk to human health is of eating these very small fragments of lead ?

 

No one does as there never has been human trials..... It is merely guesswork, or "modeling" without empirical proof.

[Fellside]

On 28/08/2022 at 23:26, Stonepark said:

Study misses a few matters which are with noting

 

1 - Most of the lead fragments appear to be contained in the wound track.

2 - No mention of total strikes on birds, just number of pellets within (i.e. no note of pass throughs and if certain fragments relate to these)

3 - Funded by RSPB

4 - No note to stop using High Velocity Ballistic tips to shoot deer (which causes the high number of particles in shot deer)

5 - Lead pellets are all subsonic when hitting target, only when they hit something harder than them do they "fragment" as the kinetic energy needs to be turned to heat or vibration to cause fragmentation)

6 - Larger pellets with more energy are more likely to fragment (Carries cartridge testing videos are a good example showing this)

7 - No evidence of true risk to people through swallowing, as most likely in majority of cases to pass through digestive system and be excreted.

8 - lead rules were set due to water pipes and poisoning, where the lead us already in solution and therefore easily adsorbed. Similarly in paint, the particles are similarly microscopic.

9 - No note on the dangers of swallowing Bismuth, Iron, Tungsten, Copper, Nickel, Zinc or any of the alternatives

I can probably think of a few more, but bed time.....

 

Funded by RSPB says it all. 

No bias interest or whatsoever then…..?!!

We need to see ‘clean data’ not campaigning under the guise of science. 

[kitchrat]

18 hours ago, Fellside said:

Funded by RSPB says it all. 

No bias interest or whatsoever then…..?!!

We need to see ‘clean data’ not campaigning under the guise of science. 

Well said!! Trouble is, we, the "Sheep" can be easily scared:

250,000 deaths from BSE -WRONG

500,000 deaths from Covid -WRONG

Multiple Covid boosters will help- WRONG but it will boost Big Phama's profits

Climate change is caused by CO2 - unproven, water vapour is probably more damaging.

Electric vehicles will save the world - wrong, there is not enough electricity to heat our homes, let alone run vehicles. However, the push for "clean energy" is the new cash cow for solar panel installers, wind farm builders etc etc.

Tighter gun control will reduce gun crime - WRONG

It goes on and on.

As you say, "We need to see ‘clean data’ not campaigning under the guise of science."

Time to go and lie down again......

 

Edited August 31, 2022 by kitchrat

[old'un]

42 minutes ago, kitchrat said:

Well said!! Trouble is, we, the "Sheep" can be easily scared:

250,000 deaths from BSE -WRONG

500,000 deaths from Covid -WRONG

Multiple Covid boosters will help- WRONG but it will boost Big Phama's profits

Climate change is caused by CO2 - unproven, water vapour is probably more damaging.

Electric vehicles will save the world - wrong, there is not enough electricity to heat our homes, let alone run vehicles. However, the push for "clean energy" is the new cash cow for solar panel installers, wind farm builders etc etc.

Tighter gun control will reduce gun crime - WRONG

It goes on and on.

As you say, "We need to see ‘clean data’ not campaigning under the guise of science."

Time to go and lie down again......

 

The problem we have is when people like Packham use this type of research to openly challenge the super markets and restaurants on selling lead shot game, we have then seen how quickly they fall into line and remove it from the shelves and menu, mind you I can understand why, they don't want bad publicity or possible court proceedings from someone claiming to have been made ill from eating lead shot game.

[kitchrat]

53 minutes ago, old'un said:

The problem we have is when people like Packham use this type of research to openly challenge the super markets and restaurants on selling lead shot game, we have then seen how quickly they fall into line and remove it from the shelves and menu, mind you I can understand why, they don't want bad publicity or possible court proceedings from someone claiming to have been made ill from eating lead shot game.

And the supermarkets said "Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaa"