Nurse's not on strike?

[oowee]

1 minute ago, Vince Green said:

Compare that with Dentists. My friend's daughter  qualified as a dentist about twenty years ago

She immediately borrowed some money from her dad, bought into a practice in North London and was earning her own money from day one.

She can choose her own hours and has never looked back.

Thats a good point. We don't want our best doctors just disappearing into private sector or abroad. My daughter is close to finishing training after around tren years and has specialised in dermatology for that very reason. Her partner is a research chemist and is likely to leave the |NHS too once training is complete. He can easily earn twice the money with half the hassle in Pharmacology. 

[Vince Green]

10 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

The real issue is not that they may look to another field … it’s that they are highly skilled and sought after professionals who may look to another country. 
 

People say if nurses don’t like the pay and conditions they should leave … well lots of them have … they’ve gone to Canada, USA, New Zealand, Australia as well as other places. 
 

Doctors obviously do the same. 
 

 

My stepdaughter went to work in USA for a while but it wasn't for the money which was quite poor. It was a big adventure, a working holiday etc but she and the friend she went with could rent a nice apartment really cheaply

The big reason nurse go abroad is because they can't get on the housing ladder over here. That's true of teachers too. It's house prices that are the problem

[Lloyd90]

1 hour ago, Vince Green said:

My stepdaughter went to work in USA for a while but it wasn't for the money which was quite poor. It was a big adventure, a working holiday etc but she and the friend she went with could rent a nice apartment really cheaply

The big reason nurse go abroad is because they can't get on the housing ladder over here. That's true of teachers too. It's house prices that are the problem

I sat and drank with 3 nurses in Florida just a few months back. Spent a few hours chatting. 
 

They said they were earning $90,000+ and can easily hit over $100k+ with overtime in their area. (2 different hospitals in Miami). 
 

They were shocked to hear what nurses in the U.K. earned. 
 

The cost of things in the USA seems a lot higher in some places (but not all), but the pay for most things we saw was a lot higher. 

[Rem260]

1 hour ago, Lloyd90 said:

I sat and drank with 3 nurses in Florida just a few months back. Spent a few hours chatting. 
 

They said they were earning $90,000+ and can easily hit over $100k+ with overtime in their area. (2 different hospitals in Miami). 
 

They were shocked to hear what nurses in the U.K. earned. 
 

The cost of things in the USA seems a lot higher in some places (but not all), but the pay for most things we saw was a lot higher. 

But having watched some programmes it seems like their healthcare is far more expensive. Without insurance they face bankruptcy for long term care.

[serrac]

7 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

The real issue is not that they may look to another field … it’s that they are highly skilled and sought after professionals who may look to another country. 
 

People say if nurses don’t like the pay and conditions they should leave … well lots of them have … they’ve gone to Canada, USA, New Zealand, Australia as well as other places. 
 

Doctors obviously do the same. 
 

 

I suspect many who move abroad do so for lifestyle reasons and would continue to do so even if UK salaries were on a par with their chosen destinations.

Ironically experienced doctors are motivated to retire early when their high salaries mean their pension pots reach the £1,073,100 LTA limit.  
Maybe we could mitigate this by reducing their salaries 🙃

https://www.wesleyan.co.uk/insights/2022/09/doctors-leave-nhs

[Lloyd90]

4 hours ago, Rem260 said:

But having watched some programmes it seems like their healthcare is far more expensive. Without insurance they face bankruptcy for long term care.

That’s not relevant to the nurses pay. 
 

That impacts the patients not the staff. 
 

Whilst harsh, whether or not the patient has insurance is not the concern of the nurses or how this impacts their pay. 
 

Most people in the USA either have private insurance or get cover through their work. 
 

Also NZ, Canada, Australia etc are all paying their nurses better without the private system. 

39 minutes ago, serrac said:

I suspect many who move abroad do so for lifestyle reasons and would continue to do so even if UK salaries were on a par with their chosen destinations.

Ironically experienced doctors are motivated to retire early when their high salaries mean their pension pots reach the £1,073,100 LTA limit.  
Maybe we could mitigate this by reducing their salaries 🙃

https://www.wesleyan.co.uk/insights/2022/09/doctors-leave-nhs

Yes I’m sure they’d be keen for that 🤦‍♂️

[Newbie to this]

1 hour ago, Lloyd90 said:

Also NZ, Canada, Australia etc are all paying their nurses better without the private system. 

Three countries, that control their immigration far better than us, and charge those who are not entitled to use their healthcare systems fee 'free'.

I know, the NHS is supposed to charge, but.............

Everything is connected. When we are the worlds free healthcare system, something has to give. Unfortunately it is the care that can be provided, and those whom provide it.

We can't have it both ways, and the staff are responsible for some of it, ie not charging those who should be paying .

Edit - The government are also responsible, for not requiring heath insurance as a condition of entry.

Edited December 22, 2022 by Newbie to this

[serrac]

I thought this article has some interesting insights:
https://www.ukcolumn.org/video/the-nhs-from-vocational-calling-to-common-purpose

[old man]

On 20/12/2022 at 18:04, oowee said:

Doctors next. 

Think ours have been that way for 3 years now?

[scobydog]

On 22/12/2022 at 00:57, Lloyd90 said:

What a silly reply. 
 

Don’t choose a career when you totally unknowingly get a 30% pay cut after investing 10+ years of hard work and effort into a field?! 
 

On reflection, the NHS has a massive shortage of Doctors and consultants and your advice is despite the huge shortages, massive waiting lists and huge issues within the NHS, the current small pool of highly skilled people who are capable of training as Doctors should concentrate their efforts on a totally different field? 

It's not a silly reply at all , if you think the salary in your sector of choice is going to rise 30% in a certain period of time and it doesn't  then tough, it's your decision to go down that route, no one forces anyone to choose a certain career.

[oowee]

47 minutes ago, scobydog said:

It's not a silly reply at all , if you think the salary in your sector of choice is going to rise 30% in a certain period of time and it doesn't  then tough, it's your decision to go down that route, no one forces anyone to choose a certain career.

On the contrary. They could not possibly know at the start of training that the salary would fall 30%. over the course of training.  If they had then they may have chosen a different career. 

As it is the poor salary relative to training is likely to result in poor retention. 

 

[Vince Green]

18 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

 

 

Most people in the USA either have private insurance or get cover through their work. 
 

 

Actually less than 50% of the people in America have any form of health insurance and the percentage is growing mainly because its so expensive and changes in working practice

One of the reasons so many people actively belong to a church over there is because the churches run 'schemes ' to provide help to church members. Many hospitals are linked to churches.

Lots of Presbyterian and Methodist Hospitals to be seen 

Remember there is no equivalent of Social Services over there. The church provides the only alternative but you have to be a member to receive help

If you haven't got the money to pay for an operation you will die. My mate Steve in South Carolina died under those circumstances. He lost his health cover when he had to stop work

We take these things for granted

Edited December 23, 2022 by Vince Green

[serrac]

2 hours ago, oowee said:

On the contrary. They could not possibly know at the start of training that the salary would fall 30%. over the course of training.  If they had then they may have chosen a different career. 

As it is the poor salary relative to training is likely to result in poor retention. 

 

I'm struggling to see a 30% fall in doctor's salaries in this graphic...

[oowee]

Me too. 

[ShootingEgg]

On 21/12/2022 at 14:12, Mice! said:

But they probably know all that when they decide to become a doctor. 

I'd say any of them who are new to the job knew this, any that have been in for 5 yrs or more probably didn't know the pay freezes would happen. But then it's hard, we need the care but equally they need pay that reflects what they do. 

 

[oowee]

18 minutes ago, ShootingEgg said:

I'd say any of them who are new to the job knew this, any that have been in for 5 yrs or more probably didn't know the pay freezes would happen. But then it's hard, we need the care but equally they need pay that reflects what they do. 

 

It is hard to reconcile but It's simply politics. We cannot afford the NHS as conceived given the ageing population and the reducing tax paying workforce. We need to pair the service to the budget and adapt it to suit. Pay for a doctors appointment, no fertility treatment, gastric bands, compulsory travel insurance for visitors, voluntary euthenasia, reorganisation (or some combination of these things and more). We won't do it, regardless of political colour, because it's politically in the too hard to deal with box.

[Mice!]

31 minutes ago, ShootingEgg said:

I'd say any of them who are new to the job knew this, any that have been in for 5 yrs or more probably didn't know the pay freezes would happen. But then it's hard, we need the care but equally they need pay that reflects what they do. 

 

But when you look at the chart Serrac has posted there isn't a 30% drop, I can understand that pay rises haven't kept up with the cost of living, but I doubt any have.

10 minutes ago, oowee said:

It is hard to reconcile but It's simply politics. We cannot afford the NHS as conceived given the ageing population and the reducing tax paying workforce. We need to pair the service to the budget and adapt it to suit. Pay for a doctors appointment, no fertility treatment, gastric bands, compulsory travel insurance for visitors, voluntary euthenasia, reorganisation (or some combination of these things and more). We won't do it, regardless of political colour, because it's politically in the too hard to deal with box.

The NHS should be outside of any politics,  but it's not.

The service isn't under funded, its badly ran, with too much management,  too many people abusing the system and coming from abroad for treatment they'll never pay for.

But I can't imagine it ever being sorted out. 

[ShootingEgg]

1 hour ago, Mice! said:

But when you look at the chart Serrac has posted there isn't a 30% drop, I can understand that pay rises haven't kept up with the cost of living, but I doubt any have

Correct, my wages have not kept up, but I myself cannot strike. If I told my employer I was not turning in, I'd be done on conduct... For being awol

[oowee]

1 hour ago, Mice! said:

But when you look at the chart Serrac has posted there isn't a 30% drop, I can understand that pay rises haven't kept up with the cost of living, but I doubt any have.

The NHS should be outside of any politics,  but it's not.

I don't have the background to the drop in pay. No doubt we hear more when the ballot takes place in Jan. 

It should be outside of politics but the decisions about it play straight into the red and blue play books. What better than some cross party fundamental review of the whole thing. 

[Mice!]

2 hours ago, ShootingEgg said:

Correct, my wages have not kept up, but I myself cannot strike. If I told my employer I was not turning in, I'd be done on conduct... For being awol

But 30% seems a massive amount,  I've worked at places where shifts have changed so your pay drops, and if you don't like it you look for another job then leave.

I do realise that nurses and doctors won't be able to change jobs as easily as I can.

 

[Weihrauch17]

2 hours ago, oowee said:

I don't have the background to the drop in pay. No doubt we hear more when the ballot takes place in Jan. 

It should be outside of politics but the decisions about it play straight into the red and blue play books. What better than some cross party fundamental review of the whole thing. 

Are you being sarcastic or do you actually believe any Politician can review anything and improve it?  All that all of them do is make everyone's lives worse by the day.

[ShootingEgg]

18 minutes ago, Mice! said:

But 30% seems a massive amount,  I've worked at places where shifts have changed so your pay drops, and if you don't like it you look for another job then leave.

I do realise that nurses and doctors won't be able to change jobs as easily as I can.

 

But no one seems to be able to find this 30% . The graphs and other information shown in this thread doesn't show that kind of drop. I'm not saying it's not true but as yet it's not been proven 

[Lloyd90]

8 minutes ago, ShootingEgg said:

But no one seems to be able to find this 30% . The graphs and other information shown in this thread doesn't show that kind of drop. I'm not saying it's not true but as yet it's not been proven 

Nurses on average have received about 2-3% pay rises each year over the last 10 years. 
 

Inflation has been running at 5-6% on average over the last 10 years. 
 

So nurses and many others in the public sector have been losing on average 3% of the value of their pay, each year. 
 

Over 10 years they have therefore lost 30% of the value of their pay. 
 

Is it that hard to understand? 
 

 

My Mrs in the private sector has a meeting every year to negotiate her pay rise, she always used to get around 5-7%… hence the notion the private sector has better pay etc. 

 

You can’t negotiate your pay in the public sector, it’s all banded. 

[Mice!]

38 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

Nurses on average have received about 2-3% pay rises each year over the last 10 years. 

So they've had a pay rise,  not a pay cut.

39 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

Inflation has been running at 5-6% on average over the last 10 years. 
 

So nurses and many others in the public sector have been losing on average 3% of the value of their pay, each year. 
 

Over 10 years they have therefore lost 30% of the value of their pay. 

They haven't lost 30% at all, they never had it, I've worked at places where we got 1%, union shop where we were told times were hard so we shouldn't ask for more than 3%

I do agree Nurses deserve good pay, conditions and benefits,  they do a job I simply couldn't , but they shouldn't be jumping on the strike wagon like so many others.

[Lloyd90]

14 minutes ago, Mice! said:

So they've had a pay rise,  not a pay cut.

They haven't lost 30% at all, they never had it, I've worked at places where we got 1%, union shop where we were told times were hard so we shouldn't ask for more than 3%

I do agree Nurses deserve good pay, conditions and benefits,  they do a job I simply couldn't , but they shouldn't be jumping on the strike wagon like so many others.

They’ve had a pay rise significantly below inflation, as have many others. 
 

In the private section you can sit down with your company and negotiate your pay and package. Yes that doesn’t mean you can guarantee a pay rise but you have the option to negotiate. 
 

You cannot negotiate your pay in the public sector it’s all banded. 
 

 

Here’s the real crux of the situation … services at the moment are awful. 
 

I’ve got a mother waiting for a major surgery been waiting over 18 months, she almost died 2 weeks ago from an infection due to the issue on-going. 
 

Wards are currently rammed full beyond belief. 
 

I was answering emergency calls a few days ago and had a long discussion with a Paramedic who was crying down the phone about the absolute awful state of the system currently… they had a 40+ hour wait for an ambulance and had major incidents with no one left to send. 
 

I don’t even think the nurses and others pay is the main factor for these strikes … the current system and conditions are totally unworkable. 
 

I agree throwing money at the system won’t solve the problems… but we simply can’t continue with the way it is at the moment. 
 

 

The shouts by people saying if they don’t like it then go and work somewhere else … we’ll that is exactly what’s happening across lots of areas of the public sector and the shortages are hitting hard.