Steel shot in old guns - a test

[B B]

3 hours ago, PeterHenry said:

Did you watch the Teague bit in the video above? Its interesting - especially when you combine it with the statement on Westley Richards website about lead / steel shot (Westley Richards, I think I am correct in saying, now own Teauge).

I don't doubt what you are saying regarding having to use steel in the future - and I'm not against it. I would far rarther loose lead than loose shooting, if that's the way the winds are blowing.

In another gun, I have marks down the inside of the barrel that I only noticed after using standard steel. I'm not bold enough to say they were caused by the use of steel - only that my noticing them coincided with me using steel with that gun (a gun that meets all the recommended requirements to use standard steel).

So, if perhaps there is a line to be toed with older guns and the use of certain types of non toxic shot, its worth looking into and documenting.

Non toxic shot is the future - but if an informed decision let's someone decide to use Bio Ammo Blue or Bismuth in a dearly loved older gun, than accidentally damage it with steel, I think that's worth while.

No not watched teagues video input, once talked to someone at teague chokes and it was with reference to tighter than full choke tube options for HP steel, The opinion was negative to such a choke constriction. So That was that, i consider Teague can offer me nor anyone else any feedback on effective long range or otherwise steel choke tubes.

   Ask anyone who has done much with steel here in the states or pretty much anywhere in the world and there are plenty utilizing way tighter than your typical 40 though full choke constrictions in extended aftermarket steel choke tubes and reaping the benefits of such chokes, this has been going on well over 20 years with the likes of Hastings SRM Terror Jebs and many more.

Remember this, barrels bulged showed riveling and stress fatigue issues generaly since time begun even with lead. Burard and others explain this and show details in numerous publications of the time. Steel will just the same as lead cause sumilar issues for basicaly the same reasons. But load Steel in the corect way and in guns suitable for the pressures involved in those loads and there will be no more issues than with lead.

Start loading steel or lead outside the safe perameters and or have some secondary complication like an over oiled or obstructed bore and negative things will hapen. its all basic stuff this and steel is neither any worse or indeed better than lead its just not lead and thats mostly the problem . Many would hate steel and dream up any number of nightmare scenarios that its of course possible to find with any shot type, but generaly steel is fine all things being equal.

  

.

[Old farrier]

21 minutes ago, B B said:

No not watched teagues video input, once talked to someone at teague chokes and it was with reference to tighter than full choke tube options for HP steel, The opinion was negative to such a choke constriction. So That was that, i consider Teague can offer me nor anyone else any feedback on effective long range or otherwise steel choke tubes.

   Ask anyone who has done much with steel here in the states or pretty much anywhere in the world and there are plenty utilizing way tighter than your typical 40 though full choke constrictions in extended aftermarket steel choke tubes and reaping the benefits of such chokes, this has been going on well over 20 years with the likes of Hastings SRM Terror Jebs and many more.

Remember this, barrels bulged showed riveling and stress fatigue issues generaly since time begun even with lead. Burard and others explain this and show details in numerous publications of the time. Steel will just the same as lead cause sumilar issues for basicaly the same reasons. But load Steel in the corect way and in guns suitable for the pressures involved in those loads and there will be no more issues than with lead.

Start loading steel or lead outside the safe perameters and or have some secondary complication like an over oiled or obstructed bore and negative things will hapen. its all basic stuff this and steel is neither any worse or indeed better than lead its just not lead and thats mostly the problem . Many would hate steel and dream up any number of nightmare scenarios that its of course possible to find with any shot type, but generaly steel is fine all things being equal.

  

.

Extended after market chokes are a totally different thing there sacrificial end reducing the risk of bulging in the normal choke area by virtue of the restrictions being outside of the main barrel area 

the op is talking about fixed choke and the effect steel may have on it 

I’d personally like to know the recoil effect on the gun and users shoulder

probably almost as great a concern to the high volume shooters than the wear on there guns is the wear on their shoulders 

 

 

[B B]

27 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

Extended after market chokes are a totally different thing there sacrificial end reducing the risk of bulging in the normal choke area by virtue of the restrictions being outside of the main barrel area 

the op is talking about fixed choke and the effect steel may have on it 

I’d personally like to know the recoil effect on the gun and users shoulder

probably almost as great a concern to the high volume shooters than the wear on there guns is the wear on their shoulders 

 

 

I onlyb made reference to screw in extended chokes with reference to said Nigel teague , not so much  other reasons other than the fact such choke restrictions exist.

 As for fixed chokes and steel, there is absolutely no reason you can not use a normal steel load even a 3 inch magnum one in a extra full fixed choke gun. even the prof house states this.

   I have shot thousands of steel shot loads through varrious fixed full guns from franchi beretta browning and others with no ill effects on the guns themselves or the way they performed. I used an extra full zabala LP10 3.5 inch ten bore for over 15 years with BBB(4.86MM)  steel reloads doing 1585 FPS not a bulge scratch or rivel in sight.

  I still use a 32 inch full and 3/4 choked Elderkins chieftain 12bore  3 inch mag with 36 gram BB reloads Again that into the thousands and no ill effects. I could quote others a Beretta 680 trap gun and SKB trap gun spring to mind. I used the SKB trap as a steel shot pigeon gun and nothing awry with it whatsoever.

[Westley]

2 hours ago, PeterHenry said:

I do have a couple of old, quite plain 65mm English guns, but my heart would not let me use them - it would be a sin in my estimation.

I can though save you the time re Westley Richards - https://www.westleyrichards.com/theexplora/westley-richards-recommends-bismuth/

Thanks Peter, I'm going there anyway, I need my gun examined with a view to opening up the 3/4 choke barrel.

[Old farrier]

12 minutes ago, B B said:

I onlyb made reference to screw in extended chokes with reference to said Nigel teague , not so much  other reasons other than the fact such choke restrictions exist.

 As for fixed chokes and steel, there is absolutely no reason you can not use a normal steel load even a 3 inch magnum one in a extra full fixed choke gun. even the prof house states this.

   I have shot thousands of steel shot loads through varrious fixed full guns from franchi beretta browning and others with no ill effects on the guns themselves or the way they performed. I used an extra full zabala LP10 3.5 inch ten bore for over 15 years with BBB(4.86MM)  steel reloads doing 1585 FPS not a bulge scratch or rivel in sight.

  I still use a 32 inch full and 3/4 choked Elderkins chieftain 12bore  3 inch mag with 36 gram BB reloads Again that into the thousands and no ill effects. I could quote others a Beretta 680 trap gun and SKB trap gun spring to mind. I used the SKB trap as a steel shot pigeon gun and nothing awry with it whatsoever.

And all of them weigh? 
6lb8oz or less I’m thinking not 

ive fired thousands of steel and other non lead cartridges through a assortment of guns all be it they are heavy duty wildfowling guns with little to no effect on them however with normal wildfowling I would rarely fire a serious volume on a flight 

driven game shooting is a different matter 

I note the guns you mention and with no disrespect ment they are all heavy built guns designed for heavy loads 

not exactly suited to a grouse or partridge day 

just my thoughts 

of 

[B B]

29 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

And all of them weigh? 
6lb8oz or less I’m thinking not 

ive fired thousands of steel and other non lead cartridges through a assortment of guns all be it they are heavy duty wildfowling guns with little to no effect on them however with normal wildfowling I would rarely fire a serious volume on a flight 

driven game shooting is a different matter 

I note the guns you mention and with no disrespect ment they are all heavy built guns designed for heavy loads 

not exactly suited to a grouse or partridge day 

just my thoughts 

of 

I know where there is a BSA SXS choked full and not a lot its about 61/2 pounds has 30 inch jesops fluid steel barrels 2.5 inch chamber and has shot thousands of rounds of steel shot modified lightening steel reloads 28 gram of 4s at 1600fps in 67mm chedite cases. Its as tight as it ever was and because its a good fit for the owner recoil is of no consequence. There is no reason similar guns loaded with slower more progressive steel powder and 4 gram lighter but faster LOADS Than your typical 32 gram lead game load should not continue to function just the same as they have done for the past 20 years with steel.  

If people  simply dont want to use steel that is  fine, but to try and say there is no steel options out there its just not the case.

And before anyone chimes in "Well i dont reload" Again but get with it or pay out for bismuth its that simple. Ammo manufacturers could produce steel ammo to match the Lightening steel reloads and probably will when the lead shot ban chickens finally come home too roost and they have no option.

[Gerry78]

On 24/02/2023 at 20:34, PeterHenry said:

Dear Pigeon Watch,

I have noted that there has of late been an awful lot of discussion regarding the potential lead ban / use of steel shot.

In my experience, steel shot kills perfectly well. That said, I have decided (with the assistance of a working gunsmith) to do an experiment. 

The previously mentioned gunsmith has sourced a 2 3/4" Spanish Boxlock Non Ejector (a Zabala Spartan no less) and we have taken pictures inside the bores - with the view that I will shoot standard steel through it, and use it for pigeon and clays through the summer.

I will post updates here - but if you want to follow on Instagram, my profile is  https://www.instagram.com/jack_snipe_uk/

Best,

Peter

I’ve said this on this forum multiple times standard steel can be shot thru older guns with no problems (maybe not Damascus barrels ) Again my 1979 Aya no3 magnum is still going strong with Standard Steel Wildfowlers have been using it years over here 

[PeterHenry]

2 hours ago, Gerry78 said:

I’ve said this on this forum multiple times standard steel can be shot thru older guns with no problems (maybe not Damascus barrels ) Again my 1979 Aya no3 magnum is still going strong with Standard Steel Wildfowlers have been using it years over here 

But a test, accompanied by photos, won't do any harm - and may serve to put pepoles minds at rest one way or the other.

[Scully]

17 minutes ago, PeterHenry said:

…… and may serve to put pepoles minds at rest one way or the other.

Good luck with that, nothing else seems to have done so. 

[PeterHenry]

8 minutes ago, Scully said:

Good luck with that, nothing else seems to have done so. 

Well, finger crossed it will go some way towards putting my own mind at rest

[Old farrier]

23 minutes ago, PeterHenry said:

But a test, accompanied by photos, won't do any harm - and may serve to put pepoles minds at rest one way or the other.

It’s a help and commendable taking the time and effort to do it 

although we do need some precision measurements of bore chokes and weight off gun

would be helpful to keep a diary of the cartridges fired type load and make also weather conditions on the day 

Its a lot better than some of the organisations have been doing 

many thanks for the time you are putting in 

Of 

 

[Gerry78]

1 hour ago, PeterHenry said:

But a test, accompanied by photos, won't do any harm - and may serve to put pepoles minds at rest one way or the other.

Peter I’ve no problem you doing any tests It can only help people who are unsure but I’ve been shooting standard steel thru my old gun I’ve mentioned seasons Now with no ill effects on the gun barrels or chambers Same as other wildfowlers on this forum also have posted before on standard steel on older shotguns Good luck anyway il be interested to see the Results 👍

[PeterHenry]

40 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

It’s a help and commendable taking the time and effort to do it 

although we do need some precision measurements of bore chokes and weight off gun

would be helpful to keep a diary of the cartridges fired type load and make also weather conditions on the day 

Its a lot better than some of the organisations have been doing 

many thanks for the time you are putting in 

Of 

 

When I have a free moment this week I'll get the bores measured / gun weighted.

I keep a game book and note shots fired / cartridges / weather / etc, so it shouldn't be much of an issue re those details, but I might have to skip over the first couple of boxes I fired at clays - as although I can remember they were Lyalvale precision steel, I can't remember what the shot size / load was.

2 minutes ago, Gerry78 said:

Peter I’ve no problem you doing any tests It can only help people who are unsure but I’ve been shooting standard steel thru my old gun I’ve mentioned seasons Now with no ill effects on the gun barrels or chambers Same as other wildfowlers on this forum also have posted before on standard steel on older shotguns Good luck anyway il be interested to see the Results 👍

👍

Edited February 27, 2023 by PeterHenry

[wymberley]

On 25/02/2023 at 21:06, Old farrier said:

Extended after market chokes are a totally different thing there sacrificial end reducing the risk of bulging in the normal choke area by virtue of the restrictions being outside of the main barrel area 

the op is talking about fixed choke and the effect steel may have on it 

I’d personally like to know the recoil effect on the gun and users shoulder

probably almost as great a concern to the high volume shooters than the wear on there guns is the wear on their shoulders 

 

 

This. Well said. I have a nasty feeling that you could turn out to be spot on although paradoxically at the moment not so in as much as currently there is not as much concern for our own welfare as perhaps there should be.

It seems to me that either the old ballisticians - Journee, Burrard and Thomas et al -  have either got it all wrong; either that or we're not really paying attention. Think I'll go with the latter and the consequences may well just warrant a study to find out for certain before the NTS situation is finally resolved one way or the other.

As mentioned elsewhere, I've been playing with some figures relating to recoil - velocity and energy - and have been surprised as to how close we're sailing to the wind. It's getting/got so that what we would now consider an average - or perhaps, 'common' would be a better term - load is somewhat OTT. Whereas previously the 6&1/2 lb gun, 1&1/16 oz load and 1250 ft/sec all married up nicely to the 96 to 1, the situation is now getting iffy. On the grounds that I've never been the brightest mathematician - not a GCE to my name and at nigh on 79 what brains I did possess have long since departed - it is fortunate that the figures aren't too complicated. It seems to me that what has long been considered to be a sensible load limit is all too frequently being exceeded. 

I'm not saying I'm right, but OF certainly is and it would pay to find out exactly what's what before it's too late.

[London Best]

17 hours ago, wymberley said:

what has long been considered to be a sensible load limit is all too frequently being exceeded

Surely, the simple answer to that is, ‘don’t do it’. 
Just keep using the same loads you always used to use, same as I do. 
They still seem just as effective as ever.

[yickdaz]

On 25/02/2023 at 13:08, Centrepin said:

According to teague chokes, speaking at a review on the BSS stated, never fire any steel through anything tighter than 1/4 choke regardless of type of barrel. He then explained why.

 

I'll try and re find the clip, think it might have been Lloyd Patterson.

 

 

I use teague internal chokes 1/2 and 5/8  put thousands of hp steel through them up to 3inch  2 shot  and they   screw in and out the gun like new its just  more myths about only using up 1/4 choke 

[wymberley]

18 minutes ago, London Best said:

Surely, the simple answer to that is, ‘don’t do it’. 
Just keep using the same loads you always used to use, same as I do. 
They still seem just as effective as ever.

Agree entirely. When we kicked off a ish 6&1/2 lb gun firing 1&1/16 oz at c1250 ft/sec did the business. Now the novices seem to need 32/34 g at 455ms. Work both those out with a 7 lb gun. Yep, the gun may fit well and you don't notice too much of a thump but you're still getting a thump which you don't need. Actually, perhaps I could say our suppliers think that's what we need.

[Old farrier]

18 minutes ago, yickdaz said:

I use teague internal chokes 1/2 and 5/8  put thousands of hp steel through them up to 3inch  2 shot  and they   screw in and out the gun like new its just  more myths about only using up 1/4 choke 

And the gun is? 
Perhaps if it’s not too much trouble you could be kind enough to give us that bore measurements that go with the choke measurement it would be a great help for comparison purposes 

many thanks 

of 

[yickdaz]

4 hours ago, Old farrier said:

And the gun is? 
Perhaps if it’s not too much trouble you could be kind enough to give us that bore measurements that go with the choke measurement it would be a great help for comparison purposes 

many thanks 

of 

Miroku mk 70 3in chamber steel proof  18.7 bore 

[Old farrier]

4 minutes ago, yickdaz said:

Miroku mk 70 3in chamber steel proof  18.7 bore 

Many thanks for the info very helpful 👍😊

[yickdaz]

1 minute ago, Old farrier said:

Many thanks for the info very helpful 👍😊

no problem 👍

[Old farrier]

19 minutes ago, yickdaz said:

no problem 👍

Here’s mine 

[PeterHenry]

Just to add - as I know it's been requested - the details of the test gun are

Both bores .725

Chokes - 1/2 and 1/4

Weight of gun - 6lb, 6oz

Edited March 3, 2023 by PeterHenry

[Old farrier]

1 hour ago, PeterHenry said:

Just to add - as I know it's been requested - the details of the test gun are

Both bores .725

Chokes - 1/2 and 1/4

Weight of gun - 6lb, 6oz

Thank you for taking the time to do this 

it’s going to be interesting 

many thanks 😊 

[PeterHenry]

5 hours ago, Old farrier said:

Thank you for taking the time to do this 

it’s going to be interesting 

many thanks 😊 

👍 no worries