Unlawful changes to England gamebird release licence challenged by BASC

[alic]

28 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

He posted that BASC stated 'the avian flu threat is unproven' which he made up and then proceeded to criticise BASC for his made up statement. It's as simple as that albeit there are some on here that want to make an issue out of any BASC update to cause rows and division.

A recent press update is here:

https://www.gazetteandherald.co.uk/news/23685039.danny-kruger-mp-intervenes-government-changes-shooting-rules/

Not the BASC website is it ?🤔

[harkom]

Rewulf ... I admire and respect your resolve in asserting the facts of the matter; you will find life less stressful if go by the maxim that one should never argue with an idiot....they only drag you down and beat you with experience...

ignorancemay possibly be corrected ...but alas stupidity is for ever

[enfieldspares]

On 30/07/2023 at 00:25, Gordon R said:

I don't always agree with Rewulf, but I have never thought of him as anti-shooting or a troll.

I see no evidence to support that allegation.

Nor me. Sometimes though we all need to speak truth to power. Well done Rewulf for reminding us that to argue against this DEFRA diktat we need facts and not fancy.

[Conor O'Gorman]

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Dont be ridiculous Conor, I posted that once, and if you want to be pedantic about the use of 'risk' and 'threat' , that mean pretty much the same thing anyway, I quoted the actual post and link to BASC 3 times, and you called me a liar and said Id made it up !
Why didnt you just protest at my use of the word 'threat' ?
Or, to not dig yourself the massive hole youve made for yourself, just do what you normally do , and just ignore the comment ?
Why dont you try and mitigate this disaster, and answer the question , why do BASC see the RISK of avian flu , in this instance as 'unproven' when DEFRA , who have far more resources to hand , do think its a risk/threat/issue ?
Or do you support the party line that DEFRA have done all this because they just want to nasty to game shoots near protected areas ?

Some 34 posts by you in this thread and still not a shred of empathy expressed for the shoots affected by Defra's decision nor an apology for posting a statement that you claim was published by BASC that in fact you made up yourself. 

This policy area is complex and subject to legal proceedings and I won't be drawn into speculation and discussion but will continue to provide updates and I am appreciative of constructive feedback to pass back to colleagues.

All the background and updates are available to read on the BASC website. Please read the updates and stop posting misinformation about BASC.

[Gordon R]

Conor - perhaps you could point me in the direction of the "made up story" as I am confused. The post I read of Rewulf's had a link to BASC site, which I visited.

The site info seemed at odds with your stance.

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Some 34 posts by you in this thread and still not a shred of empathy expressed for the shoots affected by Defra's decision nor an apology for posting a statement that you claim was published by BASC that in fact you made up yourself. 

Let me get this straight, you want me to apologise for a 'made up' statement that I pulled straight off BASCs website ?

Do you have any idea of how ridiculous that sounds?

The surprising thing is , it's still up there,  I thought you might of had a word and got it removed if you don't agree with it's sentiment.

1 hour ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

proceedings and I won't be drawn into speculation and discussion but will continue to provide updates and I am appreciative of constructive feedback to pass back to colleagues

I thought I'd given you some ?

Thing is , I wasn't even looking for an argument, I asked a couple of questions you didn't like , next thing the toys are flying out the pram along with a barrage of insults.

I wouldn't call it a professional response TBH

[Conor O'Gorman]

On 31/07/2023 at 17:14, Rewulf said:

BASC say they are going to fight this through the courts, on the basis of it being 'unlawful' , plus the absolute head shot of a statement 'The avian flu threat is unproven'
Staggering really....

@Rewulfabove is what you posted and that is not pulled off the BASC website. You have put in quotation marks for your (incorrect) interpretation of the actual statement on the BASC website and then making it appear that your made up text is the BASC statement by adding quotation marks to it and claiming its a BASC statement. Then when challenged on this you have claimed your made up statement and BASC's statement are one and the same thing and then even suggested that BASC changes its statement.

The BASC statement and context is here:

https://basc.org.uk/basc-accuse-defra-of-issuing-illegal-advice/

You have taken the information out of context and claimed it means something that it doesn’t.  You have written that the quote applies to AI in general. You may be aware of all the work BASC wildfowlers and others have been doing to monitor and combat AI. For BASC to claim that the risk of AI in general is unproven would therefore make no sense.

Perhaps the following update will help:

https://basc.org.uk/defra-creating-chaos-basc-tell-minister-in-open-letter/

"There is no evidence that gamebirds play a significant role in the spread of HPAI in wild birds. In fact, an analysis of the real-life APHA data on AI in wild birds in 2021 and 2022 shows that there was neither a temporal correlation between gamebird releases and surges in HPAI, nor a spatial correlation between areas with greater densities of gamebirds and areas with higher numbers of HPAI findings in wild birds."

I suggest you go back to the start and read the following briefing.

https://basc.org.uk/gl43/
 

[Rewulf]

Aah I see now , its my interpretation of the BASC statement ?

BASC stated 'BASC also claims the advice has been issued in response to an avian influenza risk that is unproven.'

But my shortened statement alleging BASC say 

8 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

'The avian flu threat is unproven'

Is at odds with that ? I get it now 😆 not!

This despite the fact that I consistently used the EXACT words on the BASC website on numerous occasions of this to-ing and fro-ing, punctuated with your frequent insults.

I asked for clarification on numerous occasions of whether this was the actual BASC stance, and you have just decided to produce a statement that tries to back this up.
"There is no evidence that gamebirds play a significant role in the spread of HPAI in wild birds. In fact, an analysis of the real-life APHA data on AI in wild birds in 2021 and 2022 shows that there was neither a temporal correlation between gamebird releases and surges in HPAI, nor a spatial correlation between areas with greater densities of gamebirds and areas with higher numbers of HPAI findings in wild birds."

So you are happy to state that game birds pose  no 'significant risk to protected birds ?
Therefore DEFRA has got it wrong, and youre going to take them to court over it ?

A simple question, can game birds suffer from and transmit AI ?
You know full well the answer to that.

There have been 10 outbreaks of avian flu at game-bird rearing premises since 2021. The most recent was in April at Bettws Hall Game Farm, a major facility near Newtown in Powys where protection zones are still in place.
https://www.bettwshall.com/game-farm

Now Ill be fair and say that AI incidence at this time is low https://www.gov.uk/government/news/bird-flu-latest-situation-avian-influenza-prevention-zone-declared-across-great-britain

However , does it not pay to be vigilant, and try to contain as much as possible with good biosecurity, including the 500m rule for game bird releasing ?
Yes its going to impact some shoots, but we are an adaptable sport (we need to be) and most should find a way to still have a season.
Or do we just ignore government advice on the matter and hope it a doesnt blow up in our faces ?
A small sacrifice this year, should lead to virtual eradication of AI , and a healthier season next year, THATS the advice I would be giving the affected shoots, along with advice on how to adapt their releases , so they dont break the law , and more importantly , dont risk another epidemic.

[Gordon R]

Conor

Quote

 

The British Association for Shooting and Conservation (BASC) has accused Defra of issuing illegal advice to cull hundreds of thousands of gamebirds.

The UK’s largest shooting organisation has criticised new guidance published by the government department that suggests the killing of gamebirds as a response to a growing animal welfare crisis in the countryside, caused by changes to rules around the release of gamebirds announced without warning last month.

BASC has sought legal advice and believes the Defra advice is at odds with the law contained within the Game Act 1831 and insists it leaves gamekeepers and shoot managers at risk of criminal charges.

BASC also claims the advice has been issued in response to an avian influenza risk that is unproven.

Dr Marnie Lovejoy, BASC’s head of evidence and environmental law, said: “Defra has pulled this advice out of the hat as a half-baked response to a growing crisis of their own making. Defra knew about the potential licence changes in January this year, but its failure to publicise the changes until May meant it permitted hundreds of thousands of gamebirds to be reared knowing that they would never be released.

 

I am still struggling with your stance and continued attacks on Rewulf. 

I think you should just draw a line under it.

[Conor O'Gorman]

Two updates:

BASC quizzed Defra Minister Lord Benyon on his department’s changes to the law around releasing gamebirds, during a visit to the New Forest Show:

https://basc.org.uk/defra-minister-quizzed-on-gamebird-release-legislation/

Changes to shooting rules see intervention from Wiltshire MP:

https://www.gazetteandherald.co.uk/news/23685039.danny-kruger-mp-intervenes-government-changes-shooting-rules/

[Gordon R]

Conor - any chance of an answer?

[Rewulf]

17 hours ago, Gordon R said:

Conor - any chance of an answer?

Youve got no chance Gordon   'BASC doesnt work like that' 

I shall eagerly await the news on the court case, and see what rabbit hole that leads us down.
 

[Conor O'Gorman]

22 hours ago, Gordon R said:

Conor - any chance of an answer?

There are FAQs on the webpage linked below:

https://basc.org.uk/gl43/

If there is a Q&A that you think should be included please email me at conor.ogorman@basc.org.uk and I will highlight that to colleagues for consideration.

[grahamch]

5 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Youve got no chance Gordon   'BASC doesnt work like that' 

I shall eagerly await the news on the court case, and see what rabbit hole that leads us down.
 

Why do you insist on futile post and wasting folks valuable time? Its quite clear you have an anto BASC gripe which they are responding to when they have more valuable things to do with their time. 

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, grahamch said:

Why do you insist on futile post and wasting folks valuable time? Its quite clear you have an anto BASC gripe which they are responding to when they have more valuable things to do with their time. 

If it's all too much for you, when I ask a couple of questions, perhaps a different forum would help? 

This one is usually quite tame https://www.mumsnet.com/

[Gordon R]

grahamch - the problem is that they are not answering. Take Conor's last post. He refers me to the Frequently Asked Questions page, which has nothing to do with what I, Rewulf and others have asked. 

It's patronising and very, very evasive.

[harkom]

It is not many years ago that BSAC (under Swifty control at the time) had a bit of a showboating stance against "unacceptable" practices in the commercial game shooting industry -  I seem to recall that it was about excessive numbers of birds released on certain shoots and that this programmed release of birds should be curtailed. AAHa?   ....so now - currently -  the BSers are the champion of these game shoots irrespective of numbers released.? 

Hmmm....it's a funny old world, especially when the clowns are presenting themselves as the key organisation supporting all shooting sports.

[holloway]

42 minutes ago, harkom said:

It is not many years ago that BSAC (under Swifty control at the time) had a bit of a showboating stance against "unacceptable" practices in the commercial game shooting industry -  I seem to recall that it was about excessive numbers of birds released on certain shoots and that this programmed release of birds should be curtailed. AAHa?   ....so now - currently -  the BSers are the champion of these game shoots irrespective of numbers released.? 

Hmmm....it's a funny old world, especially when the clowns are presenting themselves as the key organisation supporting all shooting sports.

Yep looks like they can’t win doesn’t it damned if the do and damned if they don’t . Not really sure  were all of this hostility really started ? but people jumping on any statement they make not sure why ? real hate for Basc by some on this forum .

It would probably be best if updates were posted by Basc without any replies by them to the the monotonous inevitable sniping it’s only making the situation worse it’s all no win .

Edited August 5, 2023 by holloway

[clangerman]

same story every time connor refuses to answer questions and the excuses start to cover it up he’s to busy it’s bashing blah blah truth of the matter is connor is dodging them and everyone knows it! 

[Rewulf]

56 minutes ago, holloway said:

Yep looks like they can’t win doesn’t it damned if the do and damned if they don’t . Not really sure  were all of this hostility really started ? but people jumping on any statement they make not sure why ? real hate for Basc by some on this forum .

It would probably be best if updates were posted by Basc without any replies by them to the the monotonous inevitable sniping it’s only making the situation worse it’s all no win .

You can call it sniping if you wish, but there's genuine questions in there. 

These questions seem to elicit a hostile response, are they really that difficult to answer.? 

On the other hand, Conor could just ignore these questions, but seems unable to do that either, without calling into question the integrity of the ones asking. 

[holloway]

8 hours ago, Rewulf said:

You can call it sniping if you wish, but there's genuine questions in there. 

These questions seem to elicit a hostile response, are they really that difficult to answer.? 

On the other hand, Conor could just ignore these questions, but seems unable to do that either, without calling into question the integrity of the ones asking. 

Like I said it’s a no win .

[Gordon R]

holloway - I did suggest Conor drew a line under the matter.

He seems unable or incapable of answering a straight question. His FAQ response would have normally won the "Burnley Dave Award" for a completely inappropriate answer, but sadly Dave is no longer a member.

[Conor O'Gorman]

Lawyers acting on behalf of BASC today filed a claim at the High Court for a Judicial Review of Defra’s decision to fundamentally change the licensing regime for the release of game birds in certain areas of England.
 

Click here for more information

[Penelope]

On 04/08/2023 at 21:48, Gordon R said:

grahamch - the problem is that they are not answering. Take Conor's last post. He refers me to the Frequently Asked Questions page, which has nothing to do with what I, Rewulf and others have asked. 

It's patronising and very, very evasive.

It's bloody disgraceful, is what it is.