Teachers pay rise

[JohnfromUK]

18 minutes ago, owain said:

20k pay rise over the past 13 years isn’t to be sniffed at though is it? 

I agree, but to be clear, it isn't the Govt who decides it.  It is a non Gov't and non political body.  A number of MPs have opposed the rises. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/tory-mps-pay-freeze-ipsa-b1761211.html

The idea that Govt awards big rises to MPs and offers lower rises to teachers, NHS staff, etc. is not correct.

The last Labour Govt froze Ministers (not MPs) salaries, and the Coalition actually reduced them.

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn06245/

[Centrepin]

10 hours ago, steve1066 said:

Well I work on numerous schools every week due to carrying out various construction projects and I don’t see car parks empty at 3:00 pm, so according to you with 6 hours max the teacher walks into the classroom bang on 9:00 and out at 3:00. Go and spend a day with a decent junior school teacher and see what she or he actually does before you tar them all with your ignorance brush. I think you will be surprised just how hard they work, most of them are not asking for more money just better conditions.

 

Most teachers are reluctant to follow the unions out on strike because of how detrimental it is to working parents and something you wouldn’t consider is the school meal is quite possibly the only decent meal some children will have that day. Also when children are living under certain conditions at home it’s the teachers who notice the change in the child and are able to assist the child, so again they are reluctant to miss even one day.

Paid too much and the jobs easy, what an utter joke

Utter garbage. 

I've finished with this thread as it's not worth my time or effort.

Teachers are not worthy of my time. Wasters every single one.

[Mungler]

An MPs basic salary is £80k (for central london). A newly qualified twenty something year old teacher inside the M25 is £40k. 

Whilst MPs get a lot of holidays (nearly as much as teachers), an MP’s CV normally has a bit more on it along with greater age and life experience. 

I can’t off the top of my head think of any MP worthy of any salary, having thoroughly fallen out of love with politics and because our local MP was a Tory parachute job and no one has seen him or could tell you what he looks like. 

That said, MPs are not paid enough. They just aren’t. If you want good people of quality who can get a job anywhere on £250,000, those people won’t take the pay cut.

[owain]

13 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

I agree, but to be clear, it isn't the Govt who decides it.  It is a non Gov't and non political body.  A number of MPs have opposed the rises. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/tory-mps-pay-freeze-ipsa-b1761211.html

The idea that Govt awards big rises to MPs and offers lower rises to teachers, NHS staff, etc. is not correct.

The last Labour Govt froze Ministers (not MPs) salaries, and the Coalition actually reduced them.

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn06245/

Yes you are right. But it doesn’t change the fact that the majority of MPs vote to accept their pay rises while voting to reject pay rises for others. Whilst also claiming expenses on top of a already generous salary.

4 minutes ago, Centrepin said:

Utter garbage. 

I've finished with this thread as it's not worth my time or effort.

Teachers are not worthy of my time. Wasters every single one.

😂😂 who rattled your cage?? Also can we ask what your qualifications are to judge an entire profession? 

[Mungler]

2 minutes ago, Centrepin said:

Utter garbage. 

I've finished with this thread as it's not worth my time or effort.

Teachers are not worthy of my time. Wasters every single one.

Steady.

There are some good teachers. Indeed there are some amazing teachers.

But like the whole of the public sector it’s a 20%/80% split in that 20% of the staff are dedicated and responsible for 80% of the actual work/output.

 

[markm]

4 hours ago, Mungler said:

When I was looking at what to do for a job / career 30 years ago I went for something that would pay well and not be wiped out by computerisation. 

If I didn’t want into the rat race but wanted a relatively secure existence and really long holidays then I’d have had a look at teaching or some other public sector role where you can accumulate extra days holiday with length of service. It’s all horses for courses.

My view is that teachers should get pay that’s fair. I’d like to see time sheets / measurement of hours worked (input) and student results (output) and such that the good teachers get more money for doing more / a better job. That’s what happens in the rest of the world, but the unions would never have it. 

Going back to teacher’s starting salaries of £30k/£40k (outside/inside M25) - that’s not bad for 8 months actual graft out of the year. Pro rata that back up to someone working full time for a full working year 😉 and that equates to a starting salary of £45k/£60k a year pro rata.

Teachers say (1) they want more money (2) they have to stop working during the school holidays, well the way to top up their salaries and get them more money is to get them all jobs during those massive holiday periods and do it that way - we just equalise their holidays so they can get 20 days off plus all the bank holidays like the rest of us and then work the remaining 3 months they get off doing something else for more money. Job jobbed 😉

It is very noble that everyone wants more money for nurses, doctors, fireman, policemen, train drivers, post men, the civil service… just as long as everyone remembers that the government has no money and we’re all paying. That’s not because of covid or Ukraine (etc) it’s because the government only has the money it lifts off everyone / everything else in the economy through taxation and that’s not just direct taxation through income tax but every other tax eg fuel duty, VAT, stamp duty, capital gains tax, inheritance tax, green duties, ulez, congestion charges and so on. Labour will tell us the money is going to come from the mythical billionaires that everyone hates, but it’s not. I digress. 

 

I’ve previously broken down your mythical facts, but maybe you’ve not read it.

simple maths for a NEW teacher. 
 

£28,000 / 38 weeks 

£736 / 5 days 

£147 / 8 hours*
 

(*that’s 8am-4pm more or less what I work, other do a few less many more at work, that’s not including the planning / marking / replying to emails and other admin and extra hours such as clubs, parents evening, open evening before you start claiming “an hour for lunch” most schools don’t have a staff room as they aren’t used - teachers spend their 1/2 hour getting ready for the afternoons lessons.)  

 

= £18.40 an hour.   Yes good (ish) money but no other perks, no company car and before anyone claims they pay tax on it…. Have you paid for a new car monthly / service / tyres / exhaust / fuel recently?

£18.40 an hour good - in my case after leaving school I done - 3x A levels, HND, Degree, PGCE so that’s 9 years of post 16 education. Youngsters now leaving will also have significant education fees. Not that amazing as you can work in supermarket for around £5 less an hour. 

Whilst you have an opinion on teachers, I’m sure you won’t be sharing your perks (salary / time off / overtime / bonus / company car / others) so I won’t ask. 

33 minutes ago, Centrepin said:

Utter garbage. 

I've finished with this thread as it's not worth my time or effort.

Teachers are not worthy of my time. Wasters every single one.

As you’re finished, you won’t be reading this or replying.
 

But you are the problem with today’s education system. 

[owain]

6 minutes ago, markm said:

I’ve previously broken down your mythical facts, but maybe you’ve not read it.

simple maths for a NEW teacher. 
 

£28,000 / 38 weeks 

£736 / 5 days 

£147 / 8 hours*
 

(*that’s 8am-4pm more or less what I work, other do a few less many more at work, that’s not including the planning / marking / replying to emails and other admin and extra hours such as clubs, parents evening, open evening before you start claiming “an hour for lunch” most schools don’t have a staff room as they aren’t used - teachers spend their 1/2 hour getting ready for the afternoons lessons.)  

 

= £18.40 an hour.   Yes good (ish) money but no other perks, no company car and before anyone claims they pay tax on it…. Have you paid for a new car monthly / service / tyres / exhaust / fuel recently?

£18.40 an hour good - in my case after leaving school I done - 3x A levels, HND, Degree, PGCE so that’s 9 years of post 16 education. Youngsters now leaving will also have significant education fees. Not that amazing as you can work in supermarket for around £5 less an hour. 

Whilst you have an opinion on teachers, I’m sure you won’t be sharing your perks (salary / time off / overtime / bonus / company car / others) so I won’t ask. 

As you’re finished, you won’t be reading this or replying.
 

But you are the problem with today’s education system. 

Well said. Both my parents were teachers, and the work is far from 9-3 Monday to Friday. But some people always know best don’t they. 

[TOPGUN749]

22 hours ago, London Best said:

Judging by how much (little) they teach the kids these days, I am not sure they are worth a pay rise at all.

Yes,and the authorities dumb down exams every year to make it look like the teaching is better and kids are brighter! The start of this was scrapping O levels,and introducing the easier GCSE’s with grades down to unclassified when no one was allowed to fail!

[12gauge82]

2 hours ago, owain said:

Funny how the government never has any money for public sector pay rises. But always seems to have enough for themselves though isn’t it?
Their pay has gone up way above the rate of inflation, expenses for absolutely everything, subsidised living down in London when they bother to show up to parliament. Not to mention the money they gave to their friends during Covid.

MPs often have 2nd or 3rd jobs. So their primary employment can’t exactly be full time. Whopping pension that they can claim early on whilst cracking the whip on the rest of us. You’ve got me ranting now 😂.

But I think that’s what sticks in the throat for a lot of public sector workers. Being told sorry no cash by the people in charge whist they would never go without. 

I wouldn't want to be an MP either and their base salary is actually very poor, particularly when you look at the PM and the responsibility their job carries, obviously their expenses they can claim goes a long way to make up for that. I certainly don't think the role of an MP is over payed, at least not if your doing the job properly anyway.

[Mungler]

33 minutes ago, markm said:

I’ve previously broken down your mythical facts, but maybe you’ve not read it.

simple maths for a NEW teacher. 
 

£28,000 / 38 weeks 

£736 / 5 days 

£147 / 8 hours*
 

(*that’s 8am-4pm more or less what I work, other do a few less many more at work, that’s not including the planning / marking / replying to emails and other admin and extra hours such as clubs, parents evening, open evening before you start claiming “an hour for lunch” most schools don’t have a staff room as they aren’t used - teachers spend their 1/2 hour getting ready for the afternoons lessons.)  

 

= £18.40 an hour.   Yes good (ish) money but no other perks, no company car and before anyone claims they pay tax on it…. Have you paid for a new car monthly / service / tyres / exhaust / fuel recently?

£18.40 an hour good - in my case after leaving school I done - 3x A levels, HND, Degree, PGCE so that’s 9 years of post 16 education. Youngsters now leaving will also have significant education fees. Not that amazing as you can work in supermarket for around £5 less an hour. 

Whilst you have an opinion on teachers, I’m sure you won’t be sharing your perks (salary / time off / overtime / bonus / company car / others) so I won’t ask. 

As you’re finished, you won’t be reading this or replying.
 

But you are the problem with today’s education system. 

But your maths is flawed and is predicated on a newly qualified teacher outside of London. 

And what are we talking about, 18 years out of A levels, say 3 years for a degree and a year teacher training. You’re talking about 23 years upwards into a role which is impossible to get sacked from and has a descent pension and earning £40k inside the M25 for 36 weeks graft pa.

What about senior school staff for those that want some of the greasy pole in school land - let’s have a look at their salaries.

Bottom line, it’s not that bad. 

[12gauge82]

9 hours ago, owain said:

6% is very reasonable in the current climate. They shouldn’t have to threaten industrial action to get that. 

I agree, in the current climate everyone should be getting pay rises, somewhere in the region of 14% in an ideal world, however it's simply not possible, if that happend inflation would never end.

What teachers are asking for is to be given special treatment and be one of the very few sectors getting any meaningful pay rise at all.

My point is not that teachers don't deserve a pay rise, it's why do they deserve a rise over almost everyone else in the country? Or is it simply because their job affords them the ability to hold the country to ransom?

[owain]

17 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

I wouldn't want to be an MP either and their base salary is actually very poor, particularly when you look at the PM and the responsibility their job carries, obviously their expenses they can claim goes a long way to make up for that. I certainly don't think the role of an MP is over payed, at least not if your doing the job properly anyway.

Basics salary is around 80k for an average 44-46 hour week. Nothing poor about that, considering about 1 in 3 find time to have second jobs on top. 
https://nationalcareers.service.gov.uk/job-profiles/mp

[12gauge82]

1 minute ago, owain said:

Basics salary is around 80k for an average 44-46 hour week. Nothing poor about that, considering about 1 in 3 find time to have second jobs on top. 
https://nationalcareers.service.gov.uk/job-profiles/mp

It's about supply and demand, not everyone can be an MP, to be democratically elected and then have the knowledge and adaptability to run multiple departments ect is certainly not for all, if you want to attract the right people, the money needs to be there.

I'm not saying anyone can be a teacher, but many more could, it would be fairly straight forward for someone academic to get into and with decent pay, holiday and conditions, I'd say it's a fairly attractive career to get into.

[Keith 66]

I was a D&T technician for 17 years, first in a 6th form college, the last 5 in a secondary school. Support staff wages were & are pitiful, minimum wage or little more. But as a technician i could walk into my domain the prep room & escape the kids. The teachers cant. It was full on each & every day & i saw no lazy **** malingering, there were good teachers & bad ones but they all had work to do & targets to meet. Just teaching the kids is but a small part of it, after that there is endless data gathering & marking, It is constant. Then you have to deal with scores of horrible little scrotes & scrotesses whose parents have never told the little **** no in their entire lives. Behaviour is appalling & getting worse. I would not do that job for three times what they get.

For those saying its a cushy number, go & do it. I guarrantee you would not last a week before you were a gibbering wreck. You could not do that job all the time you had a hole in your jacksy.

[12gauge82]

I started this thread highlighting the teachers unions were demanding a 6% rise and there is talk of strikes if they don't get it. 

I have never argued that teaching is easy, or that all teachers are lazy, I'm simply asking why teachers should receive special treatment at the tax payers expense compared to the vast majority of other jobs, some of which are of course harder and less well paid?

[clangerman]

short of money for teachers pay rise while funding someone else’s war to the tune of billions some days you have to wish you were one of the gullible! 

[joejoe]

It is amazing how much contempt some people have for others in a different profession. 
 

I also believe the main complaint from teachers is to do with the funding for the teachers pay coming out of existing schools budgets. 

[Mice!]

8 hours ago, Mungler said:

train drivers, post men, the civil service

I'm not sure about the public wanting any of those to get more money!

[owain]

34 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

I started this thread highlighting the teachers unions were demanding a 6% rise and there is talk of strikes if they don't get it. 

I have never argued that teaching is easy, or that all teachers are lazy, I'm simply asking why teachers should receive special treatment at the tax payers expense compared to the vast majority of other jobs, some of which are of course harder and less well paid?

6% isn’t special treatment, it’s a joke. Inflation running close to 14% and they haven’t had much of a pay rise for years. Did you get a pay rise from your employer this year?? 

[Rem260]

14 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

Ye fair enough, that must be the reason people are queing up to join the profession, they have hundreds of applications and there's no vacancies... 

Oh wait, its the exact opposite ... how come people aren't banging at the door to work in a profession that pays so well for such tiny amount of work then? 

Or are you perhaps living in fantasy land?! 

Perhaps teachers are reaping what they sow in terms of the profession turning into a nightmare. They are perpetuating the fantasy land that we are now finding ourselves increasingly living in. Where do you think all this liberalism/wokeism/leftism is coming from?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/teacher-cat-despicable-b2361573.html

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/04/01/schools-are-turning-children-into-judgmental-left-wing/

Edited June 26, 2023 by Rem260

[markm]

5 minutes ago, Rem260 said:

Perhaps teachers are reaping what they sow in terms of the profession turning into a nightmare. They are perpetuating the fantasy land that we are now finding ourselves increasingly living in. Where do you think all this liberalism/wokeism/leftism is coming from?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/04/01/schools-are-turning-children-into-judgmental-left-wing/

Em, nope!  Yet again pointing the finger in the wrong directions. The general population isn’t saying “NO” to this rubbish outside of schools, so it’s coming into schools and it can’t be controlled. 
 

You’ll see the odd example in the news. But believe me, what is going on outside is a lot worse.  Eg - I bet there are 100x more business’ than schools that have staff badges with pronouns, gender less toilets, single uniform policy - to name a few……

[Mice!]

38 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

I started this thread highlighting the teachers unions were demanding a 6% rise and there is talk of strikes if they don't get it. 

I have never argued that teaching is easy, or that all teachers are lazy, I'm simply asking why teachers should receive special treatment at the tax payers expense compared to the vast majority of other jobs, some of which are of course harder and less well paid?

So far the Trains have been on strike, Nurses, Royal mail? Didn't the Barristers go on strike as well?

Teachers have been on strike,  but the schools my kids are at have managed it well, it's not been a blanket closure,  the kids doing their final exams have been in uninterrupted with the other years staggered which I think is great.

I'm amazed that Nurses are allowed to strike given it can mean operations are cancelled etc, but I believe they deserve fair pay for an extremely tough job, same with the Jr Doctors.

Trains going on strike is purely political and holds masses of people to ransom,  yet they want support?

Royal mail is just a joke these days, does them going on strike really affect anyone,  you don't know if anything will arrive in two days or a week anyway. 

The Barristers? Again I've no idea how this affects people.

I see no reason Teachers shouldn't get 6% because it's still not that big a pay rise.

1 hour ago, Keith 66 said:

I was a D&T technician for 17 years, first in a 6th form college, the last 5 in a secondary school. Support staff wages were & are pitiful, minimum wage or little more. But as a technician i could walk into my domain the prep room & escape the kids. The teachers cant. It was full on each & every day & i saw no lazy **** malingering, there were good teachers & bad ones but they all had work to do & targets to meet. Just teaching the kids is but a small part of it, after that there is endless data gathering & marking, It is constant. Then you have to deal with scores of horrible little scrotes & scrotesses whose parents have never told the little **** no in their entire lives. Behaviour is appalling & getting worse. I would not do that job for three times what they get.

For those saying its a cushy number, go & do it. I guarrantee you would not last a week before you were a gibbering wreck. You could not do that job all the time you had a hole in your jacksy.

Well said.

[12gauge82]

5 minutes ago, Mice! said:

So far the Trains have been on strike, Nurses, Royal mail? Didn't the Barristers go on strike as well?

Teachers have been on strike,  but the schools my kids are at have managed it well, it's not been a blanket closure,  the kids doing their final exams have been in uninterrupted with the other years staggered which I think is great.

I'm amazed that Nurses are allowed to strike given it can mean operations are cancelled etc, but I believe they deserve fair pay for an extremely tough job, same with the Jr Doctors.

Trains going on strike is purely political and holds masses of people to ransom,  yet they want support?

Royal mail is just a joke these days, does them going on strike really affect anyone,  you don't know if anything will arrive in two days or a week anyway. 

The Barristers? Again I've no idea how this affects people.

I see no reason Teachers shouldn't get 6% because it's still not that big a pay rise.

Well said.

What about careers, military, police, fire, ambulance, prison service, supermarket workers, bricklayers and other trades, office workers, road sweepers, ect ect.

Do they not also deserve raises?

8 minutes ago, markm said:

Em, nope!  Yet again pointing the finger in the wrong directions. The general population isn’t saying “NO” to this rubbish outside of schools, so it’s coming into schools and it can’t be controlled. 
 

You’ll see the odd example in the news. But believe me, what is going on outside is a lot worse.  Eg - I bet there are 100x more business’ than schools that have staff badges with pronouns, gender less toilets, single uniform policy - to name a few……

Have the people who make these ridiculous policys not been through the education system?

 

[Rem260]

19 minutes ago, markm said:

Em, nope!  Yet again pointing the finger in the wrong directions. The general population isn’t saying “NO” to this rubbish outside of schools, so it’s coming into schools and it can’t be controlled. 
 

You’ll see the odd example in the news. But believe me, what is going on outside is a lot worse.  Eg - I bet there are 100x more business’ than schools that have staff badges with pronouns, gender less toilets, single uniform policy - to name a few……

Em nope! I think you'll find it's coming from our universities/educational establishment's who then produce these woke businesses. Can't ever remember seeing trades persons or those generally on the lower rungs pushing these ideologies.

[Mice!]

2 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

What about careers, military, police, fire, ambulance, prison service, supermarket workers, bricklayers and other trades, office workers, road sweepers, ect ect.

Do they not also deserve raises?

You can't or shouldn't include the private sector, take a bricky,  everyone on a site is probably on a different rate, working the hours they want.

My job is effectively the same no matter where I work but the the pay and conditions will vary massively so its up to me to work where I want for the pay offered.

Looking at jobs paid by Gov yes police,  fire, ambulance and prison all deserve a pay rise, there all tough jobs that require a lot of training and involve a lot of stress/pressure.

Armed forces and careers I've no idea about, both jobs you can go into with little or no qualifications, people don't join the military for the amazing pay, its for the training, the life, the pay is clear when you join and you'd hope to get fair pay rises along the way.