Newbie to this Posted January 19 Report Share Posted January 19 11 hours ago, mgsontour said: Just to put a curve ball in, I see week in and week out steel getting used more and more and IMHO there are way way more pricked birds at the end of a shoot than ever before, which in turn has to be financially and morally factored in Which will be the stick we get beaten with once Lead is banned. "Steel shot is unethical" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted January 19 Report Share Posted January 19 (edited) 10 hours ago, holloway said: when i load steel i keep shot size the same as lead or smaller but increase the speed to compensate ,basic problem is poor gun handling nothing to do with steel or lead . interesting concept, but not sure it improves the effectiveness at distance given the initial increase in velocity at the muzzle will very quickly be lost. I doubt you can obtain an increase in speed that is sufficient to compensates for not going up two sizes in shot diameter. You also increase the momentum, recoil. Obviously as reloading you are not confined by CIP rules. Even for lead shot of the same size at a muzzle velocity of 1200 or 1400 ft/sec are both achieving the same velocity and striking energy by around 20 to 25yards. May be one of the more technically minded PW members could number crunch it for steel shot. Edited January 19 by rbrowning2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernard Posted January 19 Report Share Posted January 19 On 17/01/2024 at 19:38, flippermaj said: Not sure how I haven’t come across this before but for all the doubters of steel it is definitely worth watching. Admittedly Tom is a very very good shot but that does not alter the fact on the ability of the cartridges at ranges I would not shoot at. interesting that they are not worried about using full choke either Watched it again. Brilliant! 2 3/4” 32 gram BB steel - Canadas at 20-50 yards - 9 birds with 11 shots. Next test: “Pass” shooting Canadas with the same 32gram BB load with 3/4 choke at 1360fps. 5 birds, 1 at 53 yds, 2 @ 60 and 2 @ 70. He’s not a bad shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernard Posted January 19 Report Share Posted January 19 12 hours ago, mgsontour said: Just to put a curve ball in, I see week in and week out steel getting used more and more and IMHO there are way way more pricked birds at the end of a shoot than ever before, which in turn has to be financially and morally factored in I suspect this is the fault of UK Cartridge manufacturers, CiP limitations and a failure to look at the utter encyclopedia of evidence produced in the states as they have added more and more lead shot restrictions over the last 40+ years. Shot size is important and multiple studies showed this. Large scale US FWS study with blind loaded cartridges, volunteer hunters and paid observers, using half lead and half steel (steel was appropriately loaded based on their studies) showed no statistical difference in the post shot reaction with shots to 60+ yards. I’ll dig out the link. He sumarises the various double blind studies, on Geese, Ducks, turkeys, pheasants, quail and dove here. Not opinion. Fact. These studies were very well designed and funded by the US government through their conservation act. Can’t think what it’s called now, MacArthur or something. https://www.outdoorlife.com/guns/steel-shot-lethality-testing/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fellside Posted January 19 Report Share Posted January 19 11 minutes ago, Bernard said: I suspect this is the fault of UK Cartridge manufacturers, CiP limitations and a failure to look at the utter encyclopedia of evidence produced in the states as they have added more and more lead shot restrictions over the last 40+ years. Shot size is important and multiple studies showed this. Large scale US FWS study with blind loaded cartridges, volunteer hunters and paid observers, using half lead and half steel (steel was appropriately loaded based on their studies) showed no statistical difference in the post shot reaction with shots to 60+ yards. I’ll dig out the link. He sumarises the various double blind studies, on Geese, Ducks, turkeys, pheasants, quail and dove here. Not opinion. Fact. These studies were very well designed and funded by the US government through their conservation act. Can’t think what it’s called now, MacArthur or something. https://www.outdoorlife.com/guns/steel-shot-lethality-testing/ Thanks for that Bernard. There has been much work on this in the USA. Unfortunately however, as noted above, we just don’t have the permitted velocities per USA. When (or if) our regulators permit greater steel shot velocity, we could see similar results to the American study examples. As a side note, if we ever get similar velocities in the UK, semi-autos will become as mainstream as they are stateside. This will be in no small part due to recoil from 32 gram loads being propelled at 1500 fps and more…! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flippermaj Posted January 19 Author Report Share Posted January 19 I think CIP has a max velocity of 1430 fps. The video talks of using cartridges in the 1330 to 1360 fps range. It is therefore possible for manufacturers to produce such cartridges and I believe many current steel factory loads run at these speeds. So while the SAMMI regs may be more beneficial the CIP regs we are stuck with don't preclude the production of cartridges as used in the video. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernard Posted January 19 Report Share Posted January 19 3 minutes ago, flippermaj said: I think CIP has a max velocity of 1430 fps. The video talks of using cartridges in the 1330 to 1360 fps range. It is therefore possible for manufacturers to produce such cartridges and I believe many current steel factory loads run at these speeds. So while the SAMMI regs may be more beneficial the CIP regs we are stuck with don't preclude the production of cartridges as used in the video. I agree. Unfortunately the CiP limits on shot size for standard steel vs HP are also poorly thought out. All available steel shot studies on Duck and Pheasant sized game conclude that #2 steel is the preferred shot size in 32gram and larger payloads. Choke appropriate to range of shots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted January 19 Report Share Posted January 19 "To avoid confusion, I know that steel shot works, but just that it doesn't as well as lead. Additionally, you don't always need the power of lead as enough is sufficient." I think it's fair to say that it's high time BASC produced (to CIP specified loadings - as SAMMI figures are of no use to us) a revised pattern testing procedure aimed at steel shot (correcting the existing one for lead wouldn't go amiss either). It may just also pay to do something about offering a guidance for steel shot penetration details. For convenience, as we grew up with vulnerable areas and are already familiar with this, perhaps we could leave the vital areas on the other side of the pond. As it will become an all new ballgame perhaps we also need to consider Gauss as we know that his 'bell' relates to this topic; as also does the theory of probability which was noted by the BRL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted January 19 Report Share Posted January 19 41 minutes ago, flippermaj said: I think CIP has a max velocity of 1430 fps. The video talks of using cartridges in the 1330 to 1360 fps range. It is therefore possible for manufacturers to produce such cartridges and I believe many current steel factory loads run at these speeds. So while the SAMMI regs may be more beneficial the CIP regs we are stuck with don't preclude the production of cartridges as used in the video. High performance steel and standard steel have different CIP standards, momentum is the limiting factor. 12 Ns for standard steel 12gauge 13.5 Ns for 12/70mm High performance steel 15 Ns for 12/73mm or longer High performance steel momentum is the mass of the shot x its velocity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holloway Posted January 19 Report Share Posted January 19 (edited) 23 hours ago, mgsontour said: Just to put a curve ball in, I see week in and week out steel getting used more and more and IMHO there are way way more pricked birds at the end of a shoot than ever before, which in turn has to be financially and morally factored in Just playing Devils advocate,but this could also be caused by the modern trend of high bird shoots were every one would have to either not shoot at the highest birds or be a brilliant shot to not wound or maim them ,on a wardened wildfowling marsh people would be kicked off for unethical shooting for taking these on (or as you have decided blame it on steel). Edited January 19 by holloway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
islandgun Posted January 19 Report Share Posted January 19 7 hours ago, Bernard said: I suspect this is the fault of UK Cartridge manufacturers, CiP limitations and a failure to look at the utter encyclopedia of evidence produced in the states as they have added more and more lead shot restrictions over the last 40+ years. Shot size is important and multiple studies showed this. Large scale US FWS study with blind loaded cartridges, volunteer hunters and paid observers, using half lead and half steel (steel was appropriately loaded based on their studies) showed no statistical difference in the post shot reaction with shots to 60+ yards. I’ll dig out the link. He sumarises the various double blind studies, on Geese, Ducks, turkeys, pheasants, quail and dove here. Not opinion. Fact. These studies were very well designed and funded by the US government through their conservation act. Can’t think what it’s called now, MacArthur or something. https://www.outdoorlife.com/guns/steel-shot-lethality-testing/ Thanks for posting that Bernard, some great reading material there, I did have a printed version of Tom Rosters guide will print out another Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fellside Posted January 19 Report Share Posted January 19 8 hours ago, flippermaj said: I think CIP has a max velocity of 1430 fps. The video talks of using cartridges in the 1330 to 1360 fps range. It is therefore possible for manufacturers to produce such cartridges and I believe many current steel factory loads run at these speeds. So while the SAMMI regs may be more beneficial the CIP regs we are stuck with don't preclude the production of cartridges as used in the video. Thanks for pointing out the velocities used in the video. To be perfectly honest I didn't note the velocities and just presumed they were using the usual American high velocity stuff.....?! I will put myself on the naughty step for not paying attention in class 🙂. From what I have read recently, most Americans appear to be favouring pretty fast steel loads these days - of a greater velocity than we can stretch to. Higher velocities appear to be key for range and penetration. If we had more regulatory freedom, I think our market would move in a similar direction. We can only hope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fellside Posted January 19 Report Share Posted January 19 P.S Just looked up the CIP and SAMMI regs: 1300 fps maximum. This needs to be reviewed really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flippermaj Posted January 19 Author Report Share Posted January 19 Do you know where the speed is measured at? Muzzle or 3 foot from. I ask as on Gamebores website they are advertising speeds of 1400 for standard steel? Naughty them! Agreed the yanks cartridge suppliers and marketeers seem very keen pushing the hi velocity stuff. But plenty of research on internet to show the fallacy of this as at 40 yards it has slowed down to only a little above a 1400/1350 speed cart. look up Surviving Duck Season on YouTube, he has some interesting stuff"……………and prefers to shoot bismuth! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted January 19 Report Share Posted January 19 (edited) 16 minutes ago, flippermaj said: Do you know where the speed is measured at? Muzzle or 3 foot from. I ask as on Gamebores website they are advertising speeds of 1400 for standard steel? Naughty them! The speed is measured at 2.50 meters from the muzzle, so if gamebore are quoting 1400 at the muzzle that is likely to be within CIP regulations for standard steel. Post a link to the gamebore website for the cartridge. Just looked at their dark storm and indeed they show both muzzle and CIP V1 = 2.5meter velocities to confirm they are within the CIP regulations, note the HP for the 430meters. Edited January 19 by rbrowning2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flippermaj Posted January 19 Author Report Share Posted January 19 https://gamebore.com/cartridge/game/12g-dark-storm-precision-steel-biowad it’s toward the middle/bottom of the page eley quote 1290fps for their standard steel. 32grm load! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted January 19 Report Share Posted January 19 (edited) 5 minutes ago, flippermaj said: https://gamebore.com/cartridge/game/12g-dark-storm-precision-steel-biowad it’s toward the middle/bottom of the page eley quote 1290fps for their standard steel. 32grm load! Just updated my previous post Possibly Eley may not be able to drive their biodegradable water soluble wads as fast as gamebore can their version, the wads have to survive the pressure and heat and protect the barrel. Or possibly Eley wanted a softer shooting cartridge so less velocity. Edited January 19 by rbrowning2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted January 19 Report Share Posted January 19 I am surprised the manufacturer are even offering a HP steel cartridge for 70mm, 2&3/4” chamber length guns as the gun should then be steel proofed to use HP cartridges lots of 2&3/4” chambered guns are not steel proofed, that and the fact that in time as we know the printing on the cartridge case can fade or rub away when carried in the pocket etc, could potentially risk an accident happing. All 3” or longer guns are proofed to HP pressure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted January 19 Report Share Posted January 19 26 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said: The speed is measured at 2.50 meters from the muzzle, so if gamebore are quoting 1400 at the muzzle that is likely to be within CIP regulations for standard steel. Post a link to the gamebore website for the cartridge. Just looked at their dark storm and indeed they show both muzzle and CIP V1 = 2.5meter velocities to confirm they are within the CIP regulations, note the HP for the 430meters. Wouldn't V1 be one metre? A clue might just be that the 1490 equates to a MV0 of 454 m/s. 430 at 2.5m would probably be well over the max momentum figure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fellside Posted January 19 Report Share Posted January 19 47 minutes ago, flippermaj said: Do you know where the speed is measured at? Muzzle or 3 foot from. I ask as on Gamebores website they are advertising speeds of 1400 for standard steel? Naughty them! Agreed the yanks cartridge suppliers and marketeers seem very keen pushing the hi velocity stuff. But plenty of research on internet to show the fallacy of this as at 40 yards it has slowed down to only a little above a 1400/1350 speed cart. look up Surviving Duck Season on YouTube, he has some interesting stuff"……………and prefers to shoot bismuth! Thanks for that - will have a look. I am trying to understand the merits (or challenges) re steel - in preparation for likely future changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted January 19 Report Share Posted January 19 59 minutes ago, wymberley said: Wouldn't V1 be one metre? A clue might just be that the 1490 equates to a MV0 of 454 m/s. 430 at 2.5m would probably be well over the max momentum figure. 430 at 2.5 for a 32gm is 13.44 Ns so just within the CIP limit of 13.5 Ns for a 70mm HP excluding the mass of the wad ! which is why I think V1, velocity one measurement is 2.5 meters. CIP is based around 2.5meters however it is a little confusing and cartridge manufacturers should ideally state the distance. But speed sells so they like to keep it confusing. In my experience CIP V1 at 2.5 and hardly ever used but V2 at 25 meters. The old more useful but not in vogue was the observed velocity. If V1 is at 1 meter then the shot has lost for the HP nearly 24MPS by traveling just 1 metre from the muzzle ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted January 20 Report Share Posted January 20 15 hours ago, rbrowning2 said: 430 at 2.5 for a 32gm is 13.44 Ns so just within the CIP limit of 13.5 Ns for a 70mm HP excluding the mass of the wad ! which is why I think V1, velocity one measurement is 2.5 meters. CIP is based around 2.5meters however it is a little confusing and cartridge manufacturers should ideally state the distance. But speed sells so they like to keep it confusing. In my experience CIP V1 at 2.5 and hardly ever used but V2 at 25 meters. The old more useful but not in vogue was the observed velocity. If V1 is at 1 meter then the shot has lost for the HP nearly 24MPS by traveling just 1 metre from the muzzle ! Many thanks. My bad. All I'm interested in with regards momentum is comfort whereas the loaders are talking ballistics. Consequently, on the rare occasions that I have had a look as a guide I simply used the muzzle velocity and load weight ignoring the other ejecta. At 1 yard from the muzzle some will have it that a loss of 150 ft/sec is not unrealistic but 100( c30m/s) more the norm. Agree entirely with the observed velocity. This is simpler - or perhaps it just seems so as that is what we grew up with. I was lead to believe that V1 and V2 - for example - just like V2.5 as it were - where the V relates to the velocity at the 2.5 distance. Are you saying that this is not so and I have it wrong and that V1 is 2.5m and that V2 is 25m? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted January 20 Report Share Posted January 20 the V1 could be at 1 meter as then at V2.5 certainly within CIP regulations and the V1 velocity looks good being faster than V2.5 and marketing strategy has been such that speed sells. Only way to be certain would be to ask gamebore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted January 20 Report Share Posted January 20 30 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said: the V1 could be at 1 meter as then at V2.5 certainly within CIP regulations and the V1 velocity looks good being faster than V2.5 and marketing strategy has been such that speed sells. Only way to be certain would be to ask gamebore. Thank you. They'd simply just mark their own homework and you'd just get a load of nonsense. As per the shot size packaging, it'll continue to be anybody's guess. Come the NTS day as shooters by and large are an apathetic bunch we'll have done nothing about it and it's going to be a riot with the only beneficiaries being the loaders. What is needed is legislation to ensure that we're all on the same hymn sheet before then so that we all can be as sure as possible that we're getting what we think we need which may or may not be correct but that's another story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edenman Posted January 20 Report Share Posted January 20 On 19/01/2024 at 11:06, rbrowning2 said: High performance steel and standard steel have different CIP standards, momentum is the limiting factor. 12 Ns for standard steel 12gauge 13.5 Ns for 12/70mm High performance steel 15 Ns for 12/73mm or longer High performance steel momentum is the mass of the shot x its velocity. Please forgive my ignorance… but how do you work out the mass of the shot? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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