BASC update on voluntary transition away from lead shot and and single-use plastics for live quarry

[Rim Fire]

9 hours ago, jall25 said:

 

Conor

Most of use certainly are - but what happens when we find steel is bad ?

 

I shoot at rats at night as do many others with shotguns - what of the risk of ricochets ?

Im not against steel but becoming more unsure as time moves on

Wont steel rust or is that not as bad as lead when picked up by birds especially when shot over flight ponds 

[jall25]

7 hours ago, Rim Fire said:

Wont steel rust or is that not as bad as lead when picked up by birds especially when shot over flight ponds 

Yes my sort of point Rimfire - and with it being lighter is it more likely to not sink into the sediment so will be ingested more readily ?

[London Best]

7 hours ago, Rim Fire said:

Wont steel rust or is that not as bad as lead when picked up by birds especially when shot over flight ponds 

The antis will be saving rusty steel for the next attack after a lead ban has been achieved.

[Rim Fire]

1 hour ago, London Best said:

The antis will be saving rusty steel for the next attack after a lead ban has been achieved.

Yes you are probably right shooting is doomed me thinks mr Mannering 🤣

[Windswept]

19 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Thanks. I guess we all have a budget for our recreational shooting expenditure - whether it's the quarry we are harvesting, where we shoot, or what we shoot with. There are fuel costs, the food, the accommodation, etc. Ammunition is part of the cost. The evidence is clear that the lead shot we shoot into the open countryside (outside shooting ranges where the risks can be controlled) is available to many species of birds to pick up as grit with resulting direct or indirect mortality. The voluntary transition is a choice for all of us to consider - continue as we are or start to change - are we conservationists or not?

I dont know if it's intentional but this answer, and one in the current BASC magazine, comes across as rather dismissive of concerns about the .410. 

We're 5 years into a voluntary 5 year transition away from lead and nothing seems to have been done to increase lead free alternatives in the .410, if anything there's less available now that 5 years ago. So the choice is 30p for a lead cartridge or about £1.50 for Bismuth. I doubt many people would have moved away from lead in 12g if the only option was bismuth.

Can BASC give an update on progress with the main cartridge manufacturers? Do any of them plan to offer anything other than bismuth as a lead free .410 offering? When are the component manufacturers  going to start offering any wads suitable for lead free loads and dare I say for them to offer a .410 biodegradable wad?

[Conor O'Gorman]

20 hours ago, jall25 said:

 

Conor

Most of use certainly are - but what happens when we find steel is bad ?

 

I shoot at rats at night as do many others with shotguns - what of the risk of ricochets ?

Im not against steel but becoming more unsure as time moves on

I have copy and pasted advice from GWCT webpage below. Its a voluntary transition so its your decision to continue with lead shot for your rat control.

https://www.gwct.org.uk/advisory/lead-ammunition/moving-away-from-lead-shot/

All shot can ricochet. This is most likely to occur off rocks or other hard surfaces and, to a lesser extent, water and trees. There is evidence that steel ricochets slightly more than lead, but this is in a more predictable path. The fact remains that an unsafe shot with lead is an unsafe shot with steel.

[Conor O'Gorman]

20 hours ago, Scully said:

Do you have any data showing the percentages of shooters who have made a voluntary change completely to non toxic ( except wildfowlers ) for their live quarry shooting?

The results of a recent BASC survey may shed light on this. I will update on that in due course.

[Scully]

20 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

The results of a recent BASC survey may shed light on this. I will update on that in due course.

Thank you. 

[Conor O'Gorman]

20 hours ago, Old farrier said:

Could you please be kind enough to explain and tell us how the risks are contained at a shooting ground ? 

as far as I’m aware game shooting takes place in the winter months historically the wettest time of year so between the last shot at the end of January and the ( breeding season )/release of the mostly imported and reared birds we have 3 to 5 months before the birds are fed into the drives and coverts the shot from the previous season will have disappeared into the ground long before the birds get there so the risk of picking up shot among the grit is very minimal probably non existent 

We rarely get the luxury of paths on a driven shoot unlike clay grounds 

The risks can be controlled on shooting grounds in various ways on various grounds. Feel free to speak with some of your local grounds and report back. Various control measures are being considered on various shooting grounds in mainland Europe in relation to exemptions from advanced proposals for an actual lead ban. Here in UK, we have a voluntary transition and that is focused on moving away from lead shot and single use plastics for live quarry shooting.

I don't understand your point about lead shot on game shoots. Lead shot is available for many species of birds to pick up as grit as soon as it is fired. However, at the end of the day it's a voluntary transition so its up to shoots to decide.

[Conor O'Gorman]

1 hour ago, Windswept said:

I dont know if it's intentional but this answer, and one in the current BASC magazine, comes across as rather dismissive of concerns about the .410. 

We're 5 years into a voluntary 5 year transition away from lead and nothing seems to have been done to increase lead free alternatives in the .410, if anything there's less available now that 5 years ago. So the choice is 30p for a lead cartridge or about £1.50 for Bismuth. I doubt many people would have moved away from lead in 12g if the only option was bismuth.

Can BASC give an update on progress with the main cartridge manufacturers? Do any of them plan to offer anything other than bismuth as a lead free .410 offering? When are the component manufacturers  going to start offering any wads suitable for lead free loads and dare I say for them to offer a .410 biodegradable wad?

The main cartridge manufacturers will continue to announce new products, not BASC or any other shooting organisation. We are currently in a voluntary transition away from lead shot and single use plastics for live quarry shooting. There are for sure concerns about .410 and other small gauges in the event that we have a cliff edge of a sudden ban on lead shot, given the limited options for alternatives. BASC has made those concerns clear in its submissions to the Health and Safety Executive's various consultations on proposals to restrict some uses of lead shot. However, currently, we have a voluntary transition with new products coming on stream regularly driven by market demand.

[Scully]

16 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

The risks can be controlled on shooting grounds in various ways on various grounds. Feel free to speak with some of your local grounds and report back. Various control measures are being considered on various shooting grounds in mainland Europe in relation to exemptions from advanced proposals for an actual lead ban. Here in UK, we have a voluntary transition and that is focused on moving away from lead shot and single use plastics for live quarry shooting.

I don't understand your point about lead shot on game shoots. Lead shot is available for many species of birds to pick up as grit as soon as it is fired. However, at the end of the day it's a voluntary transition so its up to shoots to decide.

Not sure I understand the logic behind this. I could understand it possibly if the clay ground ( or shoot ) had just started up this week, but my local clay shooting ground has been on the go for at least 30 years, without a detrimental effect to any species as far as I’m aware.
The ‘risks’, if they exist, haven’t been controlled for over 30 years, so what happens regarding the 30 years of accumulated lead shot already deposited? 

[Windswept]

3 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

The main cartridge manufacturers will continue to announce new products, not BASC or any other shooting organisation. We are currently in a voluntary transition away from lead shot and single use plastics for live quarry shooting. There are for sure concerns about .410 and other small gauges in the event that we have a cliff edge of a sudden ban on lead shot, given the limited options for alternatives. BASC has made those concerns clear in its submissions to the Health and Safety Executive's various consultations on proposals to restrict some uses of lead shot. However, currently, we have a voluntary transition with new products coming on stream regularly driven by market demand.

You've not really answered my questions but just repeated what I already know. BASC does speak to the cartridge manufacturers does it not, if so has BASC raised anything about .410s with them? If not could you talk to them and then can come you back to us with an update?

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

3 minutes ago, Scully said:

Not sure I understand the logic behind this. I could understand it possibly if the clay ground ( or shoot ) had just started up this week, but my local clay shooting ground has been on the go for at least 30 years, without a detrimental effect to any species as far as I’m aware.
The ‘risks’, if they exist, haven’t been controlled for over 30 years, so what happens regarding the 30 years of accumulated lead shot already deposited? 

The voluntary transition is for lead shot and single use plastics for live quarry shooting. Not shooting grounds. 

[Conor O'Gorman]

3 minutes ago, Windswept said:

You've not really answered my questions but just repeated what I already know. BASC does speak to the cartridge manufacturers does it not, if so has BASC raised anything about .410s with them? If not could you talk to them and then can come you back to us with an update?

 

Sorry, I am not going to make enquiries and then make public statements on this forum about cartridge manufacturers commercial interests. That would not be appropriate and I hope you can understand that.

[Scully]

3 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

The voluntary transition is for lead shot and single use plastics for live quarry shooting. Not shooting grounds. 

I know, but you’ve made the claim that clay shooting grounds have the capacity to ‘control the risks’ regarding spent lead shot. That statement obviously means that it is considered there are risks to control. So how does that control sit with those grounds which have already spent decades accumulating lead shot? 

[Old farrier]

28 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

The risks can be controlled on shooting grounds in various ways on various grounds. Feel free to speak with some of your local grounds and report back. Various control measures are being considered on various shooting grounds in mainland Europe in relation to exemptions from advanced proposals for an actual lead ban. Here in UK, we have a voluntary transition and that is focused on moving away from lead shot and single use plastics for live quarry shooting.

I don't understand your point about lead shot on game shoots. Lead shot is available for many species of birds to pick up as grit as soon as it is fired. However, at the end of the day it's a voluntary transition so its up to shoots to decide.

HOW ?

I have spoken to the local shooting grounds nothing has changed 

sorry you don’t understand my point about the shot on game shoots perhaps you should visit some and from observatory you should be able to see my point and possibly notice 

the feeding pattern of pheasant and partridge is different to wildfowl 

As for the other birds they probably fly to the safety of the clay ground while we’re shooing the game birds 

think about this 

many pheasant shoots host simulated game days on the same drives they shoot the pheasants on 🤔

[Windswept]

11 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Sorry, I am not going to make enquiries and then make public statements on this forum about cartridge manufacturers commercial interests. That would not be appropriate and I hope you can understand that.

Not really, no. I don't see how it matches up with the sustainable ammunition days or some of BASCs other work. You don't need to name the companies just give some indication that work is being done. At the moment I can't see much, if anything, has been done for .410s over the last 5 years.

[BobbyH]

If shooting grounds are okay for now, and it’s all voluntary, I’ll still go and buy a .410, and use it Untill I’m told I can’t.

 

I’m not a game shooter, so does this mean that shooting grounds can turn around and still allow lead shot, even after the ban?

[Scully]

2 minutes ago, BobbyH said:

 

 

I’m not a game shooter, so does this mean that shooting grounds can turn around and still allow lead shot, even after the ban?

Possibly. But that’s not a ban is it? Lead shot is either toxic or it isn’t; the fact that driven game estates, farmland rough shoots or whatever,  wouldn’t be able to shoot game with lead, but hold simulated game days or charity clay shoots ( we attend three of these outside the game season ) on the same ground, makes a bit of a mockery of the pending legislation, doesn’t it? 

[Windswept]

21 minutes ago, BobbyH said:

I'm not a game shooter, so does this mean that shooting grounds can turn around and still allow lead shot, even after the ban?

No is the simple answer. From what I've read from the HSE about the proposed ban it will be a ban for all shot, including target shooting. The latest consultation I completed even suggested any transition period could be fairly short due to the 'voluntary' transition.  

I can't see a ban not happening but I have no idea what length of time we'll get to use lead up or how long it will take for a good, reliable, supply of steel shot .410 carts to become available.

[jall25]

3 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

I have copy and pasted advice from GWCT webpage below. Its a voluntary transition so its your decision to continue with lead shot for your rat control.

https://www.gwct.org.uk/advisory/lead-ammunition/moving-away-from-lead-shot/

All shot can ricochet. This is most likely to occur off rocks or other hard surfaces and, to a lesser extent, water and trees. There is evidence that steel ricochets slightly more than lead, but this is in a more predictable path. The fact remains that an unsafe shot with lead is an unsafe shot with steel.

Yes totally - but im not on about safe or unsafe shots - simply that steel has the potential to come back in peoples faces 

[jall25]

3 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

I have copy and pasted advice from GWCT webpage below. Its a voluntary transition so its your decision to continue with lead shot for your rat control.

https://www.gwct.org.uk/advisory/lead-ammunition/moving-away-from-lead-shot/

All shot can ricochet. This is most likely to occur off rocks or other hard surfaces and, to a lesser extent, water and trees. There is evidence that steel ricochets slightly more than lead, but this is in a more predictable path. The fact remains that an unsafe shot with lead is an unsafe shot with steel.

The references are from 2009 i believe !

[rbrowning2]

Conor I read this as basc trying to distance itself from being instrumental in a total lead shot ban by stating the voluntary transition was only ever about live quarry shooting when in reality to achieve that goal all lead shot needs to be banned. 

I know no English sporting clay ground that has measures in place to control lead shot to protect the flora and fauna or could practically implement it and probably unlikely to even be able to afford such measures once known. Hence steel shot for clay shooting will be the only viable option.

Cartridge costs as suggested are really an insignificant cost to the overall cost of a days game shooting so seen as not an issue.

Like it or not protecting the environment comes at a cost and if you cannot afford the non toxic alternatives then the hard reality will be bin your .410 and use a 12bore or look for a new sport.

[BobbyH]

1 hour ago, rbrowning2 said:

Conor I read this as basc trying to distance itself from being instrumental in a total lead shot ban by stating the voluntary transition was only ever about live quarry shooting when in reality to achieve that goal all lead shot needs to be banned. 

I know no English sporting clay ground that has measures in place to control lead shot to protect the flora and fauna or could practically implement it and probably unlikely to even be able to afford such measures once known. Hence steel shot for clay shooting will be the only viable option.

Cartridge costs as suggested are really an insignificant cost to the overall cost of a days game shooting so seen as not an issue.

Like it or not protecting the environment comes at a cost and if you cannot afford the non toxic alternatives then the hard reality will be bin your .410 and use a 12bore or look for a new sport.

I get that most people will have to end up binning their .410 which is a huge shame.

 

but what about those .410’s that are proofed for steel shot…..

[Conor O'Gorman]

13 hours ago, Windswept said:

Not really, no. I don't see how it matches up with the sustainable ammunition days or some of BASCs other work. You don't need to name the companies just give some indication that work is being done. At the moment I can't see much, if anything, has been done for .410s over the last 5 years.

Thanks for clarifying. Sure, I can ask colleagues about that and come back to you next week.