Conor O'Gorman Posted April 3 Report Share Posted April 3 As we enter the fifth year of the eight major shooting organisations’ voluntary transition away from lead shot and single-use plastics for live quarry, it seems a good time to reflect on the significant achievements made over the past four years. BASC's Terry Behan looks at the progress so far. https://basc.org.uk/moving-forward-for-the-future-of-shooting/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted April 3 Report Share Posted April 3 Isn’t that a bit of a jump Conor, from conversations including in particular …..’if old guns would become obsolete’ to ‘we have overcome all these challenges’? What ( except for Bismuth ) ‘alternative shot products are suitable for the few guns that cannot use steel shot’? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted April 3 Report Share Posted April 3 (edited) That’s a job well done then BASC pat yourself on the back then sit down and read what reality is. “At this rate of decrease, it’ll take another half a century to phase out the use of lead shot completely.” https://wildjustice.org.uk/general/phasing-out-toxic-lead-voluntarily-still-isnt-working/ Nice words but where is your evidence Conor to support your claim? what % of the total live quarry cartridges imported and manufactured in the U.K. are non toxic shot and biodegradable wads, each year since the announcement of the transition. Edited April 3 by rbrowning2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterHenry Posted April 3 Report Share Posted April 3 1 hour ago, Scully said: Isn’t that a bit of a jump Conor, from conversations including in particular …..’if old guns would become obsolete’ to ‘we have overcome all these challenges’? What ( except for Bismuth ) ‘alternative shot products are suitable for the few guns that cannot use steel shot’? There's Bio Ammo Blue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted April 3 Report Share Posted April 3 (edited) 20 minutes ago, PeterHenry said: There's Bio Ammo Blue Cant say I’ve heard of it. Is it effective and affordable? Available in all calibres? Just had a google: Just Cartridges have them down as 12bore only, 70mm only and the cheapest at 185 quid a slab. So possibly not ‘suitable for the few guns that cannot use steel shot’? Edited again! : Just seen a 67mm load. Edited April 3 by Scully Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quentyn Posted April 3 Report Share Posted April 3 2 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said: Terry Behan looks at the progress so far. https://basc.org.uk/moving-forward-for-the-future-of-shooting/ Thanks for posting that - I worry that this will be the end for the 410... I appreciate that the article states "Smaller gauge cartridges are on the horizon," physics may be the determining factor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
islandgun Posted April 3 Report Share Posted April 3 2 hours ago, Scully said: Isn’t that a bit of a jump Conor, from conversations including in particular …..’if old guns would become obsolete’ to ‘we have overcome all these challenges’? What ( except for Bismuth ) ‘alternative shot products are suitable for the few guns that cannot use steel shot’? No bio wads for small gauges, even if they are proofed for steel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterHenry Posted April 4 Report Share Posted April 4 9 hours ago, Scully said: Cant say I’ve heard of it. Is it effective and affordable? Available in all calibres? Just had a google: Just Cartridges have them down as 12bore only, 70mm only and the cheapest at 185 quid a slab. So possibly not ‘suitable for the few guns that cannot use steel shot’? Edited again! : Just seen a 67mm load. It does work, and in my experience kills better than steel. 2 1/2" through to 3" is available, and you can use it through any choke. It's also a fair amount cheaper than Bismuth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted April 4 Report Share Posted April 4 20 minutes ago, PeterHenry said: It does work, and in my experience kills better than steel. 2 1/2" through to 3" is available, and you can use it through any choke. It's also a fair amount cheaper than Bismuth. Still got some of the fired wads and cases in a hanging basket waiting for them to degrade only been there three years perhaps they have improved 🤔 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Down South Posted April 4 Report Share Posted April 4 I can only find 1 offering for 16 bore with degradable wads, made by Hull and expensive, so lots of choice, not! Still got plenty of lead loads so will carry on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted April 4 Report Share Posted April 4 Can’t find any 2.1/2 inch 410 The 410 bismuth are approx £1000 a thousand more expensive and only available in 3 inch components are almost impossible to find 🤔 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyH Posted April 4 Report Share Posted April 4 15 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said: As we enter the fifth year of the eight major shooting organisations’ voluntary transition away from lead shot and single-use plastics for live quarry, it seems a good time to reflect on the significant achievements made over the past four years. BASC's Terry Behan looks at the progress so far. https://basc.org.uk/moving-forward-for-the-future-of-shooting/ Can I just ask a question with this….. it says transition away from lead and single use plastics for live quarry, is clay shooting affected by this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted April 4 Report Share Posted April 4 11 minutes ago, BobbyH said: is clay shooting affected by this? It has to. Otherwise live quarry shooters would simply buy trap loads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterHenry Posted April 4 Report Share Posted April 4 (edited) 7 hours ago, Old farrier said: Still got some of the fired wads and cases in a hanging basket waiting for them to degrade only been there three years perhaps they have improved 🤔 Yes, that is a problem. I have tried various places around the garden - flowerpots, compost heaps, etc, with no luck. I spoke to the importer and he said they require bacteria to break down, so last season I threw a bunch in the most stagnant, muddy'ist flightpond known to man, and a few weeks ago went to find them. I can only assume they also need oxygen, because they came out of the mud / water like they were new - not even the metal on them had rusted.... Not being an expert, but also being vaguely optimistic, I'm presuming that when they down break down (even if it takes some time) they break down into something less harmful than regular plastic. Edited April 4 by PeterHenry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor O'Gorman Posted April 4 Author Report Share Posted April 4 23 hours ago, Scully said: Isn’t that a bit of a jump Conor, from conversations including in particular …..’if old guns would become obsolete’ to ‘we have overcome all these challenges’? What ( except for Bismuth ) ‘alternative shot products are suitable for the few guns that cannot use steel shot’? There is a list here: https://basc.org.uk/download/358749/?tmstv=1685980747 It will be updated in due course with more options that have since become available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor O'Gorman Posted April 4 Author Report Share Posted April 4 23 hours ago, rbrowning2 said: That’s a job well done then BASC pat yourself on the back then sit down and read what reality is. “At this rate of decrease, it’ll take another half a century to phase out the use of lead shot completely.” https://wildjustice.org.uk/general/phasing-out-toxic-lead-voluntarily-still-isnt-working/ Nice words but where is your evidence Conor to support your claim? what % of the total live quarry cartridges imported and manufactured in the U.K. are non toxic shot and biodegradable wads, each year since the announcement of the transition. It is a voluntary transition and the article explains the context for the progress made so far. I don't have the data you are asking for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor O'Gorman Posted April 4 Author Report Share Posted April 4 21 hours ago, quentyn said: Thanks for posting that - I worry that this will be the end for the 410... I appreciate that the article states "Smaller gauge cartridges are on the horizon," physics may be the determining factor It is a voluntary transition so I don't think it will be the end of the 410. The alternatives to lead and single use plastic options are currently limited for 410. There is a list here: https://basc.org.uk/download/358749/?tmstv=1685980747 It will be updated in due course with more options that have since become available. 8 hours ago, BobbyH said: Can I just ask a question with this….. it says transition away from lead and single use plastics for live quarry, is clay shooting affected by this? The voluntary transition is about encouraging a move away from lead shot and single use plastics for live quarry shooting, not clay shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quentyn Posted April 4 Report Share Posted April 4 16 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said: It is a voluntary transition so I don't think it will be the end of the 410. The alternatives to lead and single use plastic options are currently limited for 410. There is a list here: https://basc.org.uk/download/358749/?tmstv=1685980747 It will be updated in due course with more options that have since become available. The voluntary transition is about encouraging a move away from lead shot and single use plastics for live quarry shooting, not clay shooting. So to confirm you don't see a derogation for .410's you see only a total lead ban ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted April 4 Report Share Posted April 4 16 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said: There is a list here: https://basc.org.uk/download/358749/?tmstv=1685980747 It will be updated in due course with more options that have since become available. Thank you. Not sure how affordable any of that translates to those who own thin walled 12 bore sxs’s, 28’s or .410’s, but I’m sure they’ll be interested. Nor am I too sure how uplifted those who own such guns will be to learn that modern sxs’s capable of using HP steel are now being made, which raises the point yet again that some pretty (once) collectible and possibly heirloom shotguns may become obsolete. Personally, I couldn’t afford to shoot as often or as long as I do now if Bismuth was my only option, and while it isn’t exactly early days regards R&D, time will tell what manufacturers will hopefully develop. 3 minutes ago, quentyn said: So to confirm you don't see a derogation for .410's you see only a total lead ban ? There can be no exemptions under the pending legislation as it relates to live quarry shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor O'Gorman Posted April 4 Author Report Share Posted April 4 14 minutes ago, quentyn said: So to confirm you don't see a derogation for .410's you see only a total lead ban ? To confirm, a voluntary transition is about encouraging a voluntary move away from lead shot and single use plastics for live quarry shooting. That is not ban - whether partial or total. It is about a voluntary phased move away from lead shot and single use plastics for live quarry and progress is being made as outlined in the article. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor O'Gorman Posted April 4 Author Report Share Posted April 4 21 minutes ago, Scully said: Thank you. Not sure how affordable any of that translates to those who own thin walled 12 bore sxs’s, 28’s or .410’s, but I’m sure they’ll be interested. Nor am I too sure how uplifted those who own such guns will be to learn that modern sxs’s capable of using HP steel are now being made, which raises the point yet again that some pretty (once) collectible and possibly heirloom shotguns may become obsolete. Personally, I couldn’t afford to shoot as often or as long as I do now if Bismuth was my only option, and while it isn’t exactly early days regards R&D, time will tell what manufacturers will hopefully develop. There can be no exemptions under the pending legislation as it relates to live quarry shooting. Thanks. I guess we all have a budget for our recreational shooting expenditure - whether it's the quarry we are harvesting, where we shoot, or what we shoot with. There are fuel costs, the food, the accommodation, etc. Ammunition is part of the cost. The evidence is clear that the lead shot we shoot into the open countryside (outside shooting ranges where the risks can be controlled) is available to many species of birds to pick up as grit with resulting direct or indirect mortality. The voluntary transition is a choice for all of us to consider - continue as we are or start to change - are we conservationists or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jall25 Posted April 4 Report Share Posted April 4 1 hour ago, Conor O'Gorman said: Thanks. I guess we all have a budget for our recreational shooting expenditure - whether it's the quarry we are harvesting, where we shoot, or what we shoot with. There are fuel costs, the food, the accommodation, etc. Ammunition is part of the cost. The evidence is clear that the lead shot we shoot into the open countryside (outside shooting ranges where the risks can be controlled) is available to many species of birds to pick up as grit with resulting direct or indirect mortality. The voluntary transition is a choice for all of us to consider - continue as we are or start to change - are we conservationists or not? Conor Most of use certainly are - but what happens when we find steel is bad ? I shoot at rats at night as do many others with shotguns - what of the risk of ricochets ? Im not against steel but becoming more unsure as time moves on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted April 4 Report Share Posted April 4 50 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said: Thanks. I guess we all have a budget for our recreational shooting expenditure - whether it's the quarry we are harvesting, where we shoot, or what we shoot with. There are fuel costs, the food, the accommodation, etc. Ammunition is part of the cost. The evidence is clear that the lead shot we shoot into the open countryside (outside shooting ranges where the risks can be controlled) is available to many species of birds to pick up as grit with resulting direct or indirect mortality. The voluntary transition is a choice for all of us to consider - continue as we are or start to change - are we conservationists or not? I’m not a great fan of the term ‘harvesting’ really, much preferring to call it what it is, and with this in mind I’m not too sure we can truly be regarded as conservationists in the real sense either. As for controlling the risks of spent lead shot, clay shooting grounds are located in the open countryside; I shoot on two which take place on mixed farmland, and a third which also has large ponds which are fished and frequented by wildfowl. As for the voluntary transition. Well given the amount of lead shot still being manufactured, bought and indeed shot, plus if the recent findings by Wild Justice and tests of dead game birds are to be believed, I wouldn’t say that’s going too well either. I don’t know of anyone who uses steel as a matter of course while lead is still an option. Do you have any data showing the percentages of shooters who have made a voluntary change completely to non toxic ( except wildfowlers ) for their live quarry shooting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted April 4 Report Share Posted April 4 1 hour ago, Conor O'Gorman said: Thanks. I guess we all have a budget for our recreational shooting expenditure - whether it's the quarry we are harvesting, where we shoot, or what we shoot with. There are fuel costs, the food, the accommodation, etc. Ammunition is part of the cost. The evidence is clear that the lead shot we shoot into the open countryside (outside shooting ranges where the risks can be controlled) is available to many species of birds to pick up as grit with resulting direct or indirect mortality. The voluntary transition is a choice for all of us to consider - continue as we are or start to change - are we conservationists or not? Could you please be kind enough to explain and tell us how the risks are contained at a shooting ground ? as far as I’m aware game shooting takes place in the winter months historically the wettest time of year so between the last shot at the end of January and the ( breeding season )/release of the mostly imported and reared birds we have 3 to 5 months before the birds are fed into the drives and coverts the shot from the previous season will have disappeared into the ground long before the birds get there so the risk of picking up shot among the grit is very minimal probably non existent We rarely get the luxury of paths on a driven shoot unlike clay grounds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scarecrow243 Posted April 4 Report Share Posted April 4 just another load of rubbish about lead shot and basc should be ashamed of them self's too keep going on about this 5 year voluntary transition rubbish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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