Conor O'Gorman Posted April 6 Author Report Share Posted April 6 2 hours ago, rbrowning2 said: Conor I read this as basc trying to distance itself from being instrumental in a total lead shot ban by stating the voluntary transition was only ever about live quarry shooting when in reality to achieve that goal all lead shot needs to be banned. I know no English sporting clay ground that has measures in place to control lead shot to protect the flora and fauna or could practically implement it and probably unlikely to even be able to afford such measures once known. Hence steel shot for clay shooting will be the only viable option. Cartridge costs as suggested are really an insignificant cost to the overall cost of a days game shooting so seen as not an issue. Like it or not protecting the environment comes at a cost and if you cannot afford the non toxic alternatives then the hard reality will be bin your .410 and use a 12bore or look for a new sport. I think you are reading too much into it but in the context of the HSE ban proposals that does muddy the waters between two different things . If shooting grounds want to move away from lead shot and single use plastics that is their choice. The announcement 4 years ago about voluntary transition was about live quarry shooting and remains the case - and for shoots that wish to move away from lead shot and single use plastics that is their choice. In terms of other comments about controlling risks from lead shot on shooting grounds these are considerations in relation to HSE proposals, and in mainland Europe for the ECHA proposals. These have been outlined in BASC's response to the HSE consultations and detailed documents on the HSE website. Similar for FACE consultation responses and documents on ECHA website. As things stand in the UK, we have a voluntary initiative focused on moving away from lead shot and single use plastics for live quarry shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor O'Gorman Posted April 6 Author Report Share Posted April 6 12 hours ago, jall25 said: The references are from 2009 i believe ! Search for 'ricochet' in the following document for more context and references: https://consultations.hse.gov.uk/crd-reach/lead-in-ammunition/user_uploads/lead-in-ammunition-background-document---draft-sea.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted April 6 Report Share Posted April 6 13 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said: I think you are reading too much into it but in the context of the HSE ban proposals that does muddy the waters between two different things . If shooting grounds want to move away from lead shot and single use plastics that is their choice. The announcement 4 years ago about voluntary transition was about live quarry shooting and remains the case - and for shoots that wish to move away from lead shot and single use plastics that is their choice. In terms of other comments about controlling risks from lead shot on shooting grounds these are considerations in relation to HSE proposals, and in mainland Europe for the ECHA proposals. These have been outlined in BASC's response to the HSE consultations and detailed documents on the HSE website. Similar for FACE consultation responses and documents on ECHA website. As things stand in the UK, we have a voluntary initiative focused on moving away from lead shot and single use plastics for live quarry shooting. However the risk is the HSE will move the agenda to include all lead shot and then the grounds will have no choice. As understand it a lot of the Europe grounds are trap shooting which is far easier to manage lead risks then English sporting, the hint is in the word English. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigteddy1954 Posted April 6 Report Share Posted April 6 Hi well if the game shooter wants to transition away from lead and shoot steel so be it if the shoots want to and let the pest and crop pretection shooter use lead simple .cheers teddy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted April 6 Report Share Posted April 6 4 minutes ago, Bigteddy1954 said: Hi well if the game shooter wants to transition away from lead and shoot steel so be it if the shoots want to and let the pest and crop pretection shooter use lead simple .cheers teddy If ONLY it was that SIMPLE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigteddy1954 Posted April 6 Report Share Posted April 6 Simple let the clay shooters use what ever is best for them same as crop and pest control.if all the the game shooting change to steel the same as wildfowling as the all the big shooting organisations want problem solved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted April 6 Report Share Posted April 6 14 minutes ago, Bigteddy1954 said: Simple let the clay shooters use what ever is best for them same as crop and pest control.if all the the game shooting change to steel the same as wildfowling as the all the big shooting organisations want problem solved. Yes, I agree completely, BUT it is OUT OF OUR HANDS.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted April 6 Report Share Posted April 6 50 minutes ago, Bigteddy1954 said: Hi well if the game shooter wants to transition away from lead and shoot steel so be it if the shoots want to and let the pest and crop pretection shooter use lead simple .cheers teddy Lead is toxic; the entire point of the ban is to prevent it being scattered all over the countryside. Unless you’re shooting clays, and then it doesn’t matter apparently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigteddy1954 Posted April 6 Report Share Posted April 6 The shooting organisations going on about once used plastic wads have you seen how much plastic waste is in the sea,rivers,oceans plus the open countrysides come on plastic wads are just a drop in the ocean (pardon the pun)compared to whats dumped in the world . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahamch Posted April 6 Report Share Posted April 6 Reading this is like Groundhog Day, same old from the same old!! Thought things might have evolved a bit but apparently not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted April 6 Report Share Posted April 6 16 minutes ago, grahamch said: Thought things might have evolved a bit but apparently not. In what way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor O'Gorman Posted April 6 Author Report Share Posted April 6 (edited) 8 hours ago, rbrowning2 said: However the risk is the HSE will move the agenda to include all lead shot and then the grounds will have no choice. As understand it a lot of the Europe grounds are trap shooting which is far easier to manage lead risks then English sporting, the hint is in the word English. The HSE has already proposed a total ban on the recreational use of lead shot for live quarry and target shooting outdoors (with an exemption for individual athletes involved in target shooting, as identified by the appropriate sporting body) for various reasons - namely to eliminate (not reduce) the impact risks (as assessed by HSE). BASC has been challenging all of this from the outset. For live quarry shooting with lead shot BASC's argument against a ban is that the voluntary move away from lead shot for live quarry shooting with shotguns is reducing the risk to a wide range of bird species in terrestrial habitats. And that the shooting sector must be allowed time to develop non-lead shotgun ammunition due to a world shortage of components and the need for manufacturers and assemblers to source new machinery to produce lead shot alternatives and biodegradable wads for all shotgun calibers. For target shooting with lead shot at shooting grounds BASC's argument against a ban is that lead exposure pathways are not conclusive for livestock, soil, soil organisms, plants, and surface waters; and current legal and regulatory frameworks are in place to manage risks. The above is a very basic summary. Please read BASC's response to last year's HSE consultation by downloading the following document: https://basc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/BASC-review-of-HSE-Annex-15-opinion.pdf Edited April 6 by Conor O'Gorman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted April 6 Report Share Posted April 6 18 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said: The HSE has already proposed a total ban on the recreational use of lead shot for live quarry and target shooting outdoors (with an exemption for individual athletes involved in target shooting, as identified by the appropriate sporting body) for various reasons - namely to eliminate (not reduce) the impact risks (as assessed by HSE). BASC has been challenging all of this from the outset. For live quarry shooting with lead shot BASC's argument against a ban is that the voluntary move away from lead shot for live quarry shooting with shotguns is reducing the risk to a wide range of bird species in terrestrial habitats. And that the shooting sector must be allowed time to develop non-lead shotgun ammunition due to a world shortage of components and the need for manufacturers and assemblers to source new machinery to produce lead shot alternatives and biodegradable wads for all shotgun calibers. For target shooting with lead shot at shooting grounds BASC's argument against a ban is that lead exposure pathways are not conclusive for livestock, soil, soil organisms, plants, and surface waters; and current legal and regulatory frameworks are in place to manage risks. The above is a very basic summary. Please read BASC's response to last year's HSE consultation by downloading the following document: https://basc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/BASC-review-of-HSE-Annex-15-opinion.pdf None of that answers the point I raised unfortunately. If clay shooting is to be exempt, am I right in believing that sim driven days and charity clay shoots held on shooting estates, will be allowed to use lead shot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyH Posted April 6 Report Share Posted April 6 So, I’m quite invested in this as of late…. I own multi choke guns and fixed choke guns, now you can’t shoot steel through tighter than 1/2 choke, and it acts as a full choke apparently. so for my fixed choke guns, I can just get them opened up by a gunsmith, then reroofed etc. steel shot ammo isn’t that expensive of JC, there is not a good selection, but not *too* bad. white gold pro steel from £301x1000 game bore super steel from £276x1000 The only gripe I have is no .410 ammo as of yet, but potential home loading is going to be an option for me I think. i did actually sit down and read the HSE findings etc, and its not a great read, but does indicate to me that it wouldn’t be financially viable to move to steel shot, if I read it right? 6 minutes ago, Scully said: None of that answers the point I raised unfortunately. If clay shooting is to be exempt, am I right in believing that sim driven days and charity clay shoots held on shooting estates, will be allowed to use lead shot? It doesn’t state that clay shooting is going to be exempt, I wish it was though!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor O'Gorman Posted April 6 Author Report Share Posted April 6 5 minutes ago, Scully said: None of that answers the point I raised unfortunately. If clay shooting is to be exempt, am I right in believing that sim driven days and charity clay shoots held on shooting estates, will be allowed to use lead shot? In your scenario if clay shooting were exempt from a lead shot ban then it would probably be on the basis of an approval process. Each ground or venue would have to make its case that the risks to birds from the lead shot being used were controlled. Hope that helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted April 6 Report Share Posted April 6 2 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said: In your scenario if clay shooting were exempt from a lead shot ban then it would probably be on the basis of an approval process. Each ground or venue would have to make its case that the risks to birds from the lead shot being used were controlled. Hope that helps. Thanks. If clay shoots are exempt, then I can’t see how any party could make a case thus. The logic is puddled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted April 6 Report Share Posted April 6 52 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said: In your scenario if clay shooting were exempt from a lead shot ban then it would probably be on the basis of an approval process. Each ground or venue would have to make its case that the risks to birds from the lead shot being used were controlled. Hope that helps. 😂😂😂😂😂 Very easy to say very difficult to do, birds do fly you know 😊 And who pays for the approval process ? HSE never work for free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor O'Gorman Posted April 6 Author Report Share Posted April 6 55 minutes ago, Scully said: Thanks. If clay shoots are exempt, then I can’t see how any party could make a case thus. The logic is puddled. Do you support the voluntary transition away from lead shot and single use plastics for live quarry shooting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor O'Gorman Posted April 6 Author Report Share Posted April 6 8 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said: 😂😂😂😂😂 Very easy to say very difficult to do, birds do fly you know 😊 And who pays for the approval process ? HSE never work for free. Your initial assertion was "basc trying to distance itself from being instrumental in a total lead shot ban by stating the voluntary transition was only ever about live quarry shooting when in reality to achieve that goal all lead shot needs to be banned" Before we move onto other assertions/queries could you confirm if I have addressed the above assertion satisfactorily? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8 shot Posted April 6 Report Share Posted April 6 9 hours ago, Bigteddy1954 said: Hi well if the game shooter wants to transition away from lead and shoot steel so be it if the shoots want to and let the pest and crop pretection shooter use lead simple .cheers teddy 8 hours ago, Bigteddy1954 said: Simple let the clay shooters use what ever is best for them same as crop and pest control.if all the the game shooting change to steel the same as wildfowling as the all the big shooting organisations want problem solved. 7 hours ago, Bigteddy1954 said: The shooting organisations going on about once used plastic wads have you seen how much plastic waste is in the sea,rivers,oceans plus the open countrysides come on plastic wads are just a drop in the ocean (pardon the pun)compared to whats dumped in the world . Far to much common sense being used here...........👍 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigteddy1954 Posted April 6 Report Share Posted April 6 Right conor have you a sumary or count over the last 10 years of how many birds or animals have died due to digesting lead shot or even humans ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8 shot Posted April 6 Report Share Posted April 6 Just now, Bigteddy1954 said: Right conor have you a sumary or count over the last 10 years of how many birds or animals have died due to digesting lead shot or even humans ? I can tell you now...0 Humans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weihrauch17 Posted April 6 Report Share Posted April 6 (edited) 1 hour ago, Conor O'Gorman said: Do you support the voluntary transition away from lead shot and single use plastics for live quarry shooting? No it is utter BS apart from single use plastics, I have always used felt wads as have most people. I wonder why there are 4000 guns in the latest Holt's auction at ridiculously low prices. You have shot yourself in both feet with this BS. Edited April 6 by Weihrauch17 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted April 6 Report Share Posted April 6 1 hour ago, Conor O'Gorman said: Your initial assertion was "basc trying to distance itself from being instrumental in a total lead shot ban by stating the voluntary transition was only ever about live quarry shooting when in reality to achieve that goal all lead shot needs to be banned" Before we move onto other assertions/queries could you confirm if I have addressed the above assertion satisfactorily? My take on this is that to give commercial game shooting any long term future the game must enter the food chain otherwise killing for fun or sport is untenable. For the game to enter the food chain the customers, suppermarkets etc are looking for the game to be free of lead. When a certain cartridge company started to sell steel shot cartridges with water soluble wads BASC recognised this as oopportunity to achieve the goal of moving away from lead shot. As to do so with single use plastic wads was also untenable as it was just another form of pollution in the countryside at a time when single use plastic pollution was and still is a big issue in the environment and frequently in the news. Hence all was in place to introduce the voluntary five year transition for live quarry shooting using non toxic shot and biodegradable wads at an affordable price point. With the added potential bonus this may also limit the impact or scope of any European or U.K. government ban on lead in ammunition. However nobody could foresee Covid or Putins war and the impact they would have on component supplies. However the elephant in the room is that certain lead shot clay cartridges are also adequate for live quarry shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weihrauch17 Posted April 6 Report Share Posted April 6 (edited) 10 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said: My take on this is that to give commercial game shooting any long term future the game must enter the food chain otherwise killing for fun or sport is untenable. For the game to enter the food chain the customers, suppermarkets etc are looking for the game to be free of lead. When a certain cartridge company started to sell steel shot cartridges with water soluble wads BASC recognised this as oopportunity to achieve the goal of moving away from lead shot. As to do so with single use plastic wads was also untenable as it was just another form of pollution in the countryside at a time when single use plastic pollution was and still is a big issue in the environment and frequently in the news. Hence all was in place to introduce the voluntary five year transition for live quarry shooting using non toxic shot and biodegradable wads at an affordable price point. With the added potential bonus this may also limit the impact or scope of any European or U.K. government ban on lead in ammunition. However nobody could foresee Covid or Putins war and the impact they would have on component supplies. However the elephant in the room is that certain lead shot clay cartridges are also adequate for live quarry shooting. No Elephant in the room, Lead will be banned full stop. When did you ever see Game in a Supermarket or anywhere else? Edited April 6 by Weihrauch17 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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