BASC update on voluntary transition away from lead shot and and single-use plastics for live quarry

[Rewulf]

11 minutes ago, wymberley said:

A valid reason often given for mod's closing threads is that it's going around in circles/nowhere. Doesn't this one qualify as such?

Konor and Old farrier ect have given good solid posts and reasoned discussion, Mr o Gorman has lapsed back into abusive, patronising mode, THATS what usually gets the thread closed.

 

[Old farrier]

54 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Konor and Old farrier ect have given good solid posts and reasoned discussion, Mr o Gorman has lapsed back into abusive, patronising mode, THATS what usually gets the thread closed.

 

Thank you for your reply 😊👍

sadly the voice of shooting has chosen not to respond to any of the points I have raised 🤔🙄

[wymberley]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

Konor and Old farrier ect have given good solid posts and reasoned discussion, Mr o Gorman has lapsed back into abusive, patronising mode, THATS what usually gets the thread closed.

 

Agree entirely, particularly with your first phrase. I would imagine that there's a fine line between often and usually and doesn't your penultimate one sound like we're back where we started and going nowhere.

[Konor]

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Konor and Old farrier ect have given good solid posts and reasoned discussion, Mr o Gorman has lapsed back into abusive, patronising mode, THATS what usually gets the thread closed.

 

 

1 hour ago, Old farrier said:

Thank you for your reply 😊👍

sadly the voice of shooting has chosen not to respond to any of the points I have raised 🤔🙄

Thank you and others for acknowledging 👍 As Old Farrier correctly states the points we are all collectively raising are not being addressed so unfortunately we have not been able to engage in proper debate. The tactic being used seems to be to take issue with minor detail or selective issues predominantly of a personal nature while ignoring the major thrust of our argument .

We need the limited use of lead to be defended and the areas where lead is the most likely source of problems needs to be addressed appropriately . BASC should be negotiating to have any large scale use of lead shot detrimental to the environment in a measurable way dealt with and bring a sense of proportion to the debate.

Unfortunately this petty bickering from the BASC side is clouding their ability to deal with the challenges ahead.

If the voice of shooting is serious in defending shooting sports it needs to step up and stop doing the work of the antis for them 

“fresh minefield of lead shot on the ground for those wee partridge chicks to eat as grit and then die from”

” there was and is no lead ban there is a voluntary transition away from lead shot”

”I realise that the facts are challenging for some forum members” “they have never read anything on the topic other than each other’s misinformed posts”

As has been already stated comedy gold and a disappointing level of debate from the BASC representative 

As an aside I am sure there will be forum members who followed the steel shot debate in the mid 1970s and 80s in the Guns and Ammo and Field and Stream magazines at the time as I did. The idea that we are limited in our awareness regarding the subject is quite insulting as does claiming we are merely followers of conspiracy theories but that  suits the political agenda being followed. We deserve better and a little more respect from those who claim to represent us wouldn’t go amiss.

What say you Conor O’Gorman.

Edited April 13 by Konor

[holloway]

I think both sides have debated very well, i have enjoyed the thread immensely.

Nice to see polite disagreement .

[Conor O'Gorman]

32 minutes ago, Konor said:

 

Thank you and others for acknowledging 👍 As Old Farrier correctly states the points we are all collectively raising are not being addressed so unfortunately we have not been able to engage in proper debate. The tactic being used seems to be to take issue with minor detail or selective issues predominantly of a personal nature while ignoring the major thrust of our argument .

We need the limited use of lead to be defended and the areas where lead is the most likely source of problems needs to be addressed appropriately . BASC should be negotiating to have any large scale use of lead shot detrimental to the environment in a measurable way dealt with and bring a sense of proportion to the debate.

Unfortunately this petty bickering from the BASC side is clouding their ability to deal with the challenges ahead.

If the voice of shooting is serious in defending shooting sports it needs to step up and stop doing the work of the antis for them 

“fresh minefield of lead shot on the ground for those wee partridge chicks to eat as grit and then die from”

” there was and is no lead ban there is a voluntary transition away from lead shot”

”I realise that the facts are challenging for some forum members” “they have never read anything on the topic other than each other’s misinformed posts”

As has been already stated comedy gold and a disappointing level of debate from the BASC representative 

As an aside I am sure there will be forum members who followed the steel shot debate in the mid 1970s and 80s in the Guns and Ammo and Field and Stream magazines at the time as I did. The idea that we are limited in our awareness regarding the subject is quite insulting as does claiming we are merely followers of conspiracy theories but that  suits the political agenda being followed. We deserve better and a little more respect from those who claim to represent us wouldn’t go amiss.

What say you Conor O’Gorman.

What I would say is that if you really have conviction in your views, then engage in the AGM, vote in the Council elections, or even put yourself forward for Council.

Do you intend trying out non-lead shot for any of your live quarry shooting? 

[Conor O'Gorman]

13 hours ago, enfieldspares said:

So now, finally, we have it. The sole thing that I and others both here and on another forum have been pushing for An admission that his was for the benefit of the big bag shoots.

Not for the benefit of the shoot where all the game is retained and shared. Not for the benefit of the bloke in a hide shooting woodpigeons for crop protection, not for the vermin shooter clearing out magpies for songbird protection, not for the crofter using a shotgun under the Deer Act "farmers' defence", not for the 9mm Rimfire or .22 Rimfire user with their bolt action Webley shooting rats.

But "to ensure a market for game meat in the UK and overseas". And thus everyone else goes down at a pen stroke and is thrown under the bus as collateral damage.

The joint statement was published 4 years ago. Is this the first time you have read it? 

It is everyone's choice whether to move away from lead shot during the voluntary transition. It is voluntary. Nobody is being thrown under a bus. Its a choice. With that in mind are you considering trying out non-lead shot for any of your live quarry shooting?

[Konor]

40 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Do you intend trying out non-lead shot for any of your live quarry shooting? 

I already do so for my foreshore wildfowling but I am either using a 3 1/2 inch chambered semi automatic  or a 10 bore not a 2 1/2 inch chambered Damascus barrelled side by side built in 1913.

Rather than question people on their intention to use non lead shot which contributes little if anything to the debate would it not be more fitting to address the issues raised on the forum which you continue to ignore.

Engaging with and having to deal with agenda driven politics is not something I would be comfortable with so no I have no plans to become involved with Council. 
I have been courteous enough to answer your questions honestly now will you reciprocate and answer all mine 

 

[Konor]

1 hour ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

It is everyone's choice whether to move away from lead shot during the voluntary transition. It is voluntary

At present it is. However it could be construed as a stop gap measure until legislation turns up and as our representative organisations have agreed in principle that the use of lead shot should ideally be phased out completely there will be little resistance to any legislative measures taken to outlaw the use of lead shot.

Edited April 13 by Konor

[enfieldspares]

1 hour ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Is this the first time you have read it? 

Please don't seek to be insulting. Remember that it is BASC members whose subscriptions pay you wages and such boorish behaviour from someone employed by them when representing the BASC case to others is out if place. 

I have used bismuth and tried it some twenty years ago. Indeed when I used it if it had been the same price as lead I woud have used it preference to lead as I found it to pattern better and kill better.

I have also used Hull Game Flight tin shot. In 12 bore English size Se3 just the last season gone. The breasts meat of pheasants shot by it was very badly bruised and would have been rejected, I feel, by the customer buying pre-packaged dressed game.

What I have not tried and neither has anyone else is non-lead 9mm Rimfire or .22 Rimfire shot cartridges as they do not exist. Four years after the February 2020 statement. So in my view they have been thrown under the bus.

I have also not tried affordable non-lead .410 cartridges. As again these do not exist. But given that BASC did not consult with the cartridge loading businesses in the UK that is not surprising. 

And finally as I have always asked what is the difference between lead shot pheasant with a shotgun and lead shot deer with a rifle as far as the logic of "ensuring a market for game meat in the UK and overseas".

 

Edited April 13 by enfieldspares

[Konor]

BASC representative to politician.     “ We encouraged as best we could the ceasing of the use of lead shot through promoting our voluntary move away from lead shot initiative but it has had very little effect”

Politician “ We’ll sort that out with the proposed lead shot ban next year”

BASC representative. “ Well we had to do something about those fresh minefields being laid for all those wee partridge chicks “

Politician “Red legged or Greys”

BASC representative ………………………………

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 13 by Konor

[Rewulf]

56 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

It is everyone's choice whether to move away from lead shot during the voluntary transition. It is voluntary.

This is the bit that beggars belief.
Its only 'voluntary' until shooting organisation supported legislation comes in, that outlaws the use of lead shot in all aspects, and after that, all lead based projectiles to be banned.
This isnt a conspiracy, its the 2021 HSE proposal, and BASCs stance is that lead in shooting is toxic

At the moment , it does appear that only lead shot for live quarry and clay targets will be up for the chop, but once its established thinking that lead from shooting is 'bad' (except for police and military use) and Packham et al have finished celebrating their 'victory' , the next campaign can start on rifle bullets.
Did BASC think this through when they decided to invest hundreds of thousands of members money into the BGA ?
Will it be worth destroying the shooting industry as a whole, just so BASC can preserve their small part of it ?

Lets be clear, BASC are not the voice of shooting, the people who shoot , and their supporters, are the voice.
To minimise those numbers, is to minimise the voice, in an already minority driven pastime and industry, this allows an easier foe to be vanquished by the anti shooting lobby.
The question Ive posed before , is what gave BASC the right to speak for everyone who shoots, when it didnt even give its own membership a vote ?

'BASC council decided'

'BASC doesnt work like that'

Imagine the NRA in the US , with millions of members, getting a communique that the NRA council was now going to vote to repeal the 2nd amdt , and was also going to honour a long time lobbyist for the banning of firearms ?
No vote, no consultation , what would you think happened, a conspiracy ?
 

[Rewulf]

7 minutes ago, Konor said:

Politician “ We’ll sort that out with the proposed lead shot ban next year”

BASC representative. “ Well we had to something about those fresh minefields being laid for all those wee partridge chicks “

Politician “Red legged or Greys”

BASC representative ………………………………

Irish greys of course !
I began researching this bird in 1991, working closely with the National Parks and Wildlife Service and Board na Mona. Together we conducted research into the population dynamics of the remaining birds and identified the requirements of the population in an Irish context. With the support of several state and semi-state bodies we successfully plucked the species from the jaws of extinction due to the lead minefields in the area, increasing the population from a low of 24 birds to almost 1,000 birds in 2011. The project continues to operate at Boora, County Offaly, Ireland

[Konor]

2 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

This is the bit that beggars belief.
Its only 'voluntary' until shooting organisation supported legislation comes in, that outlaws the use of lead shot in all aspects, and after that, all lead based projectiles to be banned.
This isnt a conspiracy, its the 2021 HSE proposal, and BASCs stance is that lead in shooting is toxic

At the moment , it does appear that only lead shot for live quarry and clay targets will be up for the chop, but once its established thinking that lead from shooting is 'bad' (except for police and military use) and Packham et al have finished celebrating their 'victory' , the next campaign can start on rifle bullets.
Did BASC think this through when they decided to invest hundreds of thousands of members money into the BGA ?
Will it be worth destroying the shooting industry as a whole, just so BASC can preserve their small part of it ?

Lets be clear, BASC are not the voice of shooting, the people who shoot , and their supporters, are the voice.
To minimise those numbers, is to minimise the voice, in an already minority driven pastime and industry, this allows an easier foe to be vanquished by the anti shooting lobby.
The question Ive posed before , is what gave BASC the right to speak for everyone who shoots, when it didnt even give its own membership a vote ?

'BASC council decided'

'BASC doesnt work like that'

Imagine the NRA in the US , with millions of members, getting a communique that the NRA council was now going to vote to repeal the 2nd amdt , and was also going to honour a long time lobbyist for the banning of firearms ?
No vote, no consultation , what would you think happened, a conspiracy ?
 

👍 Well made points Rewulf ,the self appointed “Voice of shooting “ should take the time to read ,digest and act accordingly.

2 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Irish greys of course !
I began researching this bird in 1991, working closely with the National Parks and Wildlife Service and Board na Mona. Together we conducted research into the population dynamics of the remaining birds and identified the requirements of the population in an Irish context. With the support of several state and semi-state bodies we successfully plucked the species from the jaws of extinction due to the lead minefields in the area, increasing the population from a low of 24 birds to almost 1,000 birds in 2011. The project continues to operate at Boora, County Offaly, Ireland

Haha not even an original wording ,a recycling from 2011 😂

[Conor O'Gorman]

2 hours ago, holloway said:

I think both sides have debated very well, i have enjoyed the thread immensely.

Nice to see polite disagreement .

Unfortunately, its going downhill...

[Conor O'Gorman]

1 hour ago, Konor said:

I have been courteous enough to answer your questions honestly now will you reciprocate and answer all mine 

 

I don't see any questions, just lots of statements. In any case in answering any questions on matters of policy I will most likely refer you to already published material. And around in circles we will go. You would be better putting a question to the AGM if you wish to challenge BASC's policy on lead ammunition - as that's a matter for BASC Council and its elected members. 

[Smudger687]

1 hour ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

What I would say is that if you really have conviction in your views, then engage in the AGM, vote in the Council elections, or even put yourself forward for Council.

Do you intend trying out non-lead shot for any of your live quarry shooting? 

I seem to recall most of what you do is rough shooting, a discipline where steel is generally not required. Do you use non-lead for most of your shooting? What cartridge, if so? Thanks

[Konor]

5 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

I don't see any questions, just lots of statements. In any case in answering any questions on matters of policy I will most likely refer you to already published material. And around in circles we will go. You would be better putting a question to the AGM if you wish to challenge BASC's policy on lead ammunition - as that's a matter for BASC Council and its elected members. 

Then look harder they are there in abundance ,clue  look for any question marks

[Conor O'Gorman]

3 minutes ago, Smudger687 said:

I seem to recall most of what you do is rough shooting, a discipline where steel is generally not required. Do you use non-lead for most of your shooting? What cartridge, if so? Thanks

Bismuth for ducks and steel for pigeons. Bioammo blue looks interesting and have been following another thread on that with interest. 

11 minutes ago, Konor said:

Then look harder they are there in abundance ,clue  look for any question marks

Nope can't see any over last few pages. Give me one question please.

[Konor]

I read about the grey partridge project at Boora on the Offaly libraries site.

The blame for the partridge decline was put on intensive agriculture and the removal of hedgerows and the reversal of the birds fortunes due to ensuring the best possible conditions for the survival of the grey partridges at Boora. Methods involved nesting strips ,crop cover strips and growing crops like barley to help the birds thrive. The grey partridge population in Offaly is made up of wild breeding birds supplemented by a captive breeding programme.

Similar work has been carried out by the Game Conservancy Trust in both England and Scotland to turn around grey partridge population numbers.

In both cases I can find no reference or mention of lead minefields being overcome to achieve their results so perhaps not statistically the issue you would have us believe

An old Game Conservancy quote stated “ It was the recreational shooter who first alerted the government to the demise of the grey partridge”

Rather than concede ground to the self promoting new breed of politically correct/woke conservationists we should be acknowledging the decades of work carried out by and on behalf of fieldsports enthusiasts

Edited April 13 by Konor

[Konor]

8 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Nope can't see any over last few pages. Give me one question please.

Do you and BASC acknowledge that the perceived worry surrounding lead shot being used over non wetland areas has been brought about by the rise of commercial shooting where comparatively small areas of ground have excessive amounts of lead shot deposited on them.

[Konor]

14 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Nope can't see any over last few pages. Give me one question please.

If you fail to see in my posts anything which you are obliged to reply to if you are considered to be debating the issues raised on this thread then I can only conclude that you are doing so as a matter of convenience which brings up your suitability to be employed as a representative of a major shooting organisation.

[Smudger687]

19 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Bismuth for ducks and steel for pigeons. Bioammo blue looks interesting and have been following another thread on that with interest. 

I've used a bit of factory bismuth too - I've not been particularly thrilled with current market offerings, the shot quality is quite poor from my experience. Are your steel cartridges biosteels or plaswads?

[Conor O'Gorman]

10 minutes ago, Konor said:

Do you and BASC acknowledge that the perceived worry surrounding lead shot being used over non wetland areas has been brought about by the rise of commercial shooting where comparatively small areas of ground have excessive amounts of lead shot deposited on them.

The concerns about lead shot impacting on birds in wetland and non-wetland areas has been brought about by research - not commercial shoots. This research is in the UK, across mainland Europe, in USA, in NZ etc covering a wide range of shooting disciplines.

[Konor]

8 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

The concerns about lead shot impacting on birds in wetland and non-wetland areas has been brought about by research - not commercial shoots. This research is in the UK, across mainland Europe, in USA, in NZ etc covering a wide range of shooting disciplines.

Has the deposition of lead in vast amounts over comparatively small areas not given rise to that research or would you have me believe that statistically a case could be made for significant harm resulting from the deposition of lead shot in small amounts over a large area of ground ?
You seem to avoid mentioning large commercial shoots ,is that deliberate and if so why ?

Edited April 13 by Konor