BASC update on voluntary transition away from lead shot and and single-use plastics for live quarry

[Gordon R]

I believe there is only the one genuinely confused person and this thread and it appears to be of his own making. 🙂

[Konor]

How many wildfowlers still use their 1 1/2 oz 3inch chambered guns on the foreshore for geese ? I don’t ,it now gets used inland on game occasionally or a shot at the clays.

In a few years someone will be asking how many folk take their 1 1/8oz 2 1/2 inch guns out in the field and there will probably be a similar number doing so as the amount of 3inch 1 1/2 oz guns being used on the shore for geese now.

I’m sure a lot of people won’t be bothered ,they’ll be quite content with their ubiquitous 3 inch chambered over and unders but it will be a great loss to our sport and the truth of the matter may well be that the changes that occurred to bring about the loss of our vintage guns in the field will have had an insignificant positive effect on the environment. 

Edited April 14 by Konor

[holloway]

18 minutes ago, Konor said:

How many wildfowlers still use their 1 1/2 oz 3inch chambered guns on the foreshore for geese ? I don’t ,it now gets used inland on game occasionally or a shot at the clays.

In a few years someone will be asking how many folk take their 1 1/8oz 2 1/2 inch guns out in the field and there will probably be a similar number doing so as the amount of 3inch 1 1/2 oz guns being used on the shore for geese now.

I’m sure a lot of people won’t be bothered ,they’ll be quite content with their ubiquitous 3 inch chambered over and unders but it will be a great loss to our sport and the truth of the matter may well be that the changes that occurred to bring about the loss of our vintage guns in the field will have had an insignificant positive effect on the environment. 

I use a Midland 3 inch sxs for geese have used all sorts of steel loads through it ,also a G E Lewis hammer gun never had any problems but as you know with steel you can use lighter loads to the same effect as the old heavy lead loads ( been doing this for probably 15 years ).

[Konor]

30 minutes ago, holloway said:

I use a Midland 3 inch sxs for geese have used all sorts of steel loads through it ,also a G E Lewis hammer gun never had any problems but as you know with steel you can use lighter loads to the same effect as the old heavy lead loads ( been doing this for probably 15 years ).

Thanks for that Holloway I think you’ll be in the minority that I alluded to but maybe it’s greater than I thought.I retired mine from the shore but as Im get older I may consider taking it back out ,what loads and chokes  are you using ? If legislation comes through to restrict lead inland I was intending using it for steel inland but may end up using it for more of my shooting if the heavier loads work out.

Edited April 14 by Konor

[Sweet11-87]

sorry if these questions have been answered but 13 pages of long winded comments is not something im gona go through word for word on a sunday afternoon. ive brushed through it all and get the general idea but ive got some questions that ive not had a rock solid answer too.

 

1. the voluntary basc transition away from single use plastic and lead for game. how voluntary is it?. its year 5 of 5 and some progress has been made but realistically its not looking like a complete transition will be achieved not even close so what its the consequence of that?.  to my knowledge basc are an organization not a governing body, if its decided by the majority of the shooting community to ignore this transition out side of a cautionary tale what can basc actually impose? am i correct in thinking this isnt and wont be law?

(for the record im BASC member and use non toxic when practical but can very much see the reasons and sympathies with those who dont)

2. whats the score with this HSE matter? where are we at now i know that is being pushed to be a legal ban however it seems to keep deferring and stalling and to my knowledge is a EU proposal thats now been scraped in the EU.  how is the wind blowing with this is it looking like a matter of time or is this starting to loose traction?. when has this been pushed back too?

[Gordon R]

Can I suggest you take the time to read the posts.

[Sweet11-87]

49 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

Can I suggest you take the time to read the posts.

well i took your advice and ive wasted my time.

was looking for an actual answer and the closest i got to question 1 was

"What happens from 2025 onward will be for the organizations that announced the voluntary transition away from lead shot and single use plastics for live quarry shooting with shotguns in 2020 to decide and announce."   and i may be wrong but none of those organizations can in fact impose anything on the shooting community.

in fact this has added a 3rd question to my list

3. when it was clear that the voluntary transition was clearly not gaining the intended following or traction why has it been so heavily perused for 5 years?. its literally been pushed to the 11th hour and when the time frame expires the goals have not been met whats the plan? why the hell have they still been banging the drum over this and more than likely going to need to make a U-turn  thats not going to cast shooting, shooters or the organizations in a good light.

 

[holloway]

2 hours ago, Konor said:

Thanks for that Holloway I think you’ll be in the minority that I alluded to but maybe it’s greater than I thought.I retired mine from the shore but as Im get older I may consider taking it back out ,what loads and chokes  are you using ? If legislation comes through to restrict lead inland I was intending using it for steel inland but may end up using it for more of my shooting if the heavier loads work out.

I think you are  probably right i am in a minority ,i do to be fair load my own but have used shop stuff successfully.

I use a maximum of 1 1/8 2 shot for geese ,but stick to 1oz of 2s for the hammer gun that might seem ridiculously light but i find it works for me .

My chokes are half and half in one and what i would describe as a tight half in the other .I use as light a load as works and as small a shot as i can get away with ,it does make a delightfully soft shooting experience .

I have used some shop brought goose loads of 1 3/8 but found them a bit thumpy .

[Konor]

1 minute ago, holloway said:

I think you are  probably right i am in a minority ,i do to be fair load my own but have used shop stuff successfully.

I use a maximum of 1 1/8 2 shot for geese ,but stick to 1oz of 2s for the hammer gun that might seem ridiculously light but i find it works for me .

My chokes are half and half in one and what i would describe as a tight half in the other .I use as light a load as works and as small a shot as i can get away with ,it does make a delightfully soft shooting experience .

I have used some shop brought goose loads of 1 3/8 but found them a bit thumpy .

Thanks for taking the time to advise I'll use those loads to start me off inland initially fighting geese and see how it goes 👍

[holloway]

30 minutes ago, Konor said:

Thanks for taking the time to advise I'll use those loads to start me off inland initially fighting geese and see how it goes 👍

I tend to put my faith in the quality of the English gun maker no matter how old and as long as in good condition to be superior to most modern offerings.

[Conor O'Gorman]

1 hour ago, Sweet11-87 said:

well i took your advice and ive wasted my time.

was looking for an actual answer and the closest i got to question 1 was

"What happens from 2025 onward will be for the organizations that announced the voluntary transition away from lead shot and single use plastics for live quarry shooting with shotguns in 2020 to decide and announce."   and i may be wrong but none of those organizations can in fact impose anything on the shooting community.

in fact this has added a 3rd question to my list

3. when it was clear that the voluntary transition was clearly not gaining the intended following or traction why has it been so heavily perused for 5 years?. its literally been pushed to the 11th hour and when the time frame expires the goals have not been met whats the plan? why the hell have they still been banging the drum over this and more than likely going to need to make a U-turn  thats not going to cast shooting, shooters or the organizations in a good light.

 

Q1. the voluntary basc transition away from single use plastic and lead for game. how voluntary is it?. its year 5 of 5 and some progress has been made but realistically its not looking like a complete transition will be achieved not even close so what its the consequence of that?.  to my knowledge basc are an organization not a governing body, if its decided by the majority of the shooting community to ignore this transition out side of a cautionary tale what can basc actually impose? am i correct in thinking this isnt and wont be law?

A1. the voluntary transition away from lead shot and single use plastics for live quarry is completely voluntary. Nine organisations announced it in 2020 and have been encouraging the transition since then. BASC has been hosting events called sustainable shooting days where participants can try a range of latest cartridges loaded with non-lead and non-plastic wads in their own guns - initially 12 bore and then 20 bore. The initial target was 5 years and progress has been made but with Covid and Ukraine war and other factors more time is needed in terms of cartridges. However, its also about a change in awareness and attitudes - such as why the move away from lead shot is a positive move - and that alternatives like steel shot can be used in a much wider variety of guns that people realise. The shooting organisations encouraging the voluntary transition are not the government and cannot make laws to impose it.

Q2. whats the score with this HSE matter? where are we at now i know that is being pushed to be a legal ban however it seems to keep deferring and stalling and to my knowledge is a EU proposal thats now been scraped in the EU.  how is the wind blowing with this is it looking like a matter of time or is this starting to loose traction?. when has this been pushed back too?

A2. In 2021, a year after the voluntary transition was announced the government tasked the Health and Safety Executive (HSE) with the responsibility of reviewing chemicals under new regulations called UK REACH which mirrors similar processes in the EU. This was because of the Brexit deal. The first two chemicals to be reviewed were lead in ammunition and ink in tatoos, mirroring similar reviews in the EU. The HSE has since been reviewing dozens of more chemicals, again all mirroring EU reviews - all part of ensuring workable post-Brexit trade with EU on chemicals. The initial HSE proposals on lead in ammunition, consulted on in 2022, were for a total ban on the recreational use of lead ammunition outdoors. BASC and other orgs challenged the evidence and encouraged responses to the consultation. The HSE subsequently dropped plans to ban lead airgun pellets and conceded that target shooting with lead rifle ammunition should be allowed to continue at approved ranges. We await the outcome of last year's consultation - which has been delayed due to weight of responses. BASC's response to last year's HSE consultation was to argue against any further regulations on lead ammunition - given that for the main risk - lead shot for live quarry shooting - a voluntary transition was underway to mitigate that risk. Once the outcome has been published the government of the day will then decide actions, if any. Whatever happens we are many years away from a change in law because grace periods will be worked in. Meanwhile BASC and the other orgs will continue to encourage a voluntary move away from lead shot and single use plastics for live quarry shooting.

Q3. when it was clear that the voluntary transition was clearly not gaining the intended following or traction why has it been so heavily perused for 5 years?. its literally been pushed to the 11th hour and when the time frame expires the goals have not been met whats the plan? why the hell have they still been banging the drum over this and more than likely going to need to make a U-turn  thats not going to cast shooting, shooters or the organizations in a good light.

A3. I think BASC and the other orgs will continue to encourage a voluntary move away from lead shot and single use plastics for live quarry shooting. As per A1. the initial target was 5 years and progress has been made but with Covid and Ukraine war and other factors more time is needed in terms of cartridges. However, its also about a change in awareness and attitudes - such as why the move away from lead shot is a positive move - and that alternatives like steel shot can be used in a much wider variety of guns that people realise.

I hope that helps - however as a BASC member feel free to PM or email me at conor.ogorman@basc.org.uk if you would like further advice in a phone call.

[Sweet11-87]

8 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Q1. the voluntary basc transition away from single use plastic and lead for game. how voluntary is it?. its year 5 of 5 and some progress has been made but realistically its not looking like a complete transition will be achieved not even close so what its the consequence of that?.  to my knowledge basc are an organization not a governing body, if its decided by the majority of the shooting community to ignore this transition out side of a cautionary tale what can basc actually impose? am i correct in thinking this isnt and wont be law?

A1. the voluntary transition away from lead shot and single use plastics for live quarry is completely voluntary. Nine organisations announced it in 2020 and have been encouraging the transition since then. BASC has been hosting events called sustainable shooting days where participants can try a range of latest cartridges loaded with non-lead and non-plastic wads in their own guns - initially 12 bore and then 20 bore. The initial target was 5 years and progress has been made but with Covid and Ukraine war and other factors more time is needed in terms of cartridges. However, its also about a change in awareness and attitudes - such as why the move away from lead shot is a positive move - and that alternatives like steel shot can be used in a much wider variety of guns that people realise. The shooting organisations encouraging the voluntary transition are not the government and cannot make laws to impose it.

Q2. whats the score with this HSE matter? where are we at now i know that is being pushed to be a legal ban however it seems to keep deferring and stalling and to my knowledge is a EU proposal thats now been scraped in the EU.  how is the wind blowing with this is it looking like a matter of time or is this starting to loose traction?. when has this been pushed back too?

A2. In 2021, a year after the voluntary transition was announced the government tasked the Health and Safety Executive (HSE) with the responsibility of reviewing chemicals under new regulations called UK REACH which mirrors similar processes in the EU. This was because of the Brexit deal. The first two chemicals to be reviewed were lead in ammunition and ink in tatoos, mirroring similar reviews in the EU. The HSE has since been reviewing dozens of more chemicals, again all mirroring EU reviews - all part of ensuring workable post-Brexit trade with EU on chemicals. The initial HSE proposals on lead in ammunition, consulted on in 2022, were for a total ban on the recreational use of lead ammunition outdoors. BASC and other orgs challenged the evidence and encouraged responses to the consultation. The HSE subsequently dropped plans to ban lead airgun pellets and conceded that target shooting with lead rifle ammunition should be allowed to continue at approved ranges. We await the outcome of last year's consultation - which has been delayed due to weight of responses. BASC's response to last year's HSE consultation was to argue against any further regulations on lead ammunition - given that for the main risk - lead shot for live quarry shooting - a voluntary transition was underway to mitigate that risk. Once the outcome has been published the government of the day will then decide actions, if any. Whatever happens we are many years away from a change in law because grace periods will be worked in. Meanwhile BASC and the other orgs will continue to encourage a voluntary move away from lead shot and single use plastics for live quarry shooting.

Q3. when it was clear that the voluntary transition was clearly not gaining the intended following or traction why has it been so heavily perused for 5 years?. its literally been pushed to the 11th hour and when the time frame expires the goals have not been met whats the plan? why the hell have they still been banging the drum over this and more than likely going to need to make a U-turn  thats not going to cast shooting, shooters or the organizations in a good light.

A3. I think BASC and the other orgs will continue to encourage a voluntary move away from lead shot and single use plastics for live quarry shooting. As per A1. the initial target was 5 years and progress has been made but with Covid and Ukraine war and other factors more time is needed in terms of cartridges. However, its also about a change in awareness and attitudes - such as why the move away from lead shot is a positive move - and that alternatives like steel shot can be used in a much wider variety of guns that people realize.

I hope that helps - however as a BASC member feel free to PM or email me at conor.ogorman@basc.org.uk if you would like further advice in a phone call.

thanks for taking the time to  type that out and clear that up Conor. It would seem that the voluntary move may have a role to play in mitigating/pacifying  the potential outcomes of the HSE proposals. given the circumstances you've pointed out above i imagine the 9 organizations next move will be to play for time and extend deadlines.

 

[enfieldspares]

6 hours ago, Old farrier said:

Game birds shot with lead are toxic however venison shot with lead isn’t 🤔

I reckon that and the other points you've made just about sums up the logic of the asylum that seems interwoven with BASC's original letter of February 2020 and the ongoing narrative. Yes. 

 

Edited April 14 by enfieldspares

[Conor O'Gorman]

47 minutes ago, enfieldspares said:

I reckon that and the other points you've made just about sums up the logic of the asylum that seems interwoven with BASC's original letter of February 2020 and the ongoing narrative. Yes. 

 

I am not aware of any BASC letter in 2020. As previously advised please check your facts before posting. In February 2020 nine organisations announced a voluntary transition away from lead shot and single use plastics for live quarry shooting.

Click the link below:

https://www.gwct.org.uk/news/news/2020/february/a-joint-statement-on-the-future-of-shotgun-ammunition-for-live-quarry-shooting/

Or if you are unable or unwilling to read information outside of the misinformation on this forum please read the full text of the joint statement as follows:

In consideration of wildlife, the environment and to ensure a market for the healthiest game products, at home and abroad, we wish to see an end to both lead and single-use plastics in ammunition used by those taking all live quarry with shotguns within five years. The shooting community must maintain its place at the forefront of wildlife conservation and protection. Sustainability in our practices is of utmost importance.

Many years ago, wetland restrictions demanded a move away from lead shot and we believe it is necessary to begin a further phased transition. Recently, there have been significant developments in the quality and availability of non-lead shotgun cartridges, and plastic cases can now be recycled. For the first time, biodegradable shot cups for steel shot, with the necessary ballistics to ensure lethality, are available. These welcome advances are continuing at an ever-quickening pace, in response to demand from a changing market. Such advances mean that, over the coming years, a complete transition is achievable.

We are jointly calling for our members to engage in this transition and work with us, the Gun Trade Association and the cartridge manufacturers to ensure that further viable alternatives are developed for every situation involving live quarry. This is an opportunity to take the initiative and ensure the reputation of the shooting community, as custodians of the countryside, is both maintained and enhanced.
 

1 hour ago, Sweet11-87 said:

thanks for taking the time to  type that out and clear that up Conor. It would seem that the voluntary move may have a role to play in mitigating/pacifying  the potential outcomes of the HSE proposals. given the circumstances you've pointed out above i imagine the 9 organizations next move will be to play for time and extend deadlines.

 

Glad that helped. There is lot of misinformation on social media including on this forum and if you have any further queries arising from BASC updates on this topic feel free to email me at conor.ogorman@basc.org.uk 

[Gordon R]

Conor O'Gorman, will you please desist from making increasingly patronising posts. You frequently tell others to check their facts, but can't locate questions which you have been asked. It's unprofessional.

[clangerman]

claims of misinformation from a man who’s screamed toxic toxic on here for mths yet still can’t produce a SINGLE bird killed from ingesting lead cue laughter! 

[Konor]

11 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Glad that helped. There is lot of misinformation on social media including on this forum and if you have any further queries arising from BASC updates on this topic feel free to email me at conor.ogorman@basc.org.uk 

Also beware of a lot of selective information aimed at projecting a picture which fails to address the reality of the lead shot ban situation. For example non compliance with the inland “voluntary transition away from lead” is estimated at greater than 90% but a belief that despite this there will be no legislation introduced to control the use of lead shot. A consequent inertia to be overcome when it comes to negotiating on our behalf  to mitigate the effects of an outright inland lead shot ban. As the legislative banning of lead potentially achieves what BASC et al’s  voluntary transition away from lead failed to do don’t expect a robust defence of the use of lead shot inland as evidenced by earlier posts “fresh minefields and poor wee partridge chicks” etc etc  I can’t see there being much chance of a significant pushback against any proposed legislation in light of those statements .In a nutshell all politics and would be politicians so you will probably know what to expect.

[enfieldspares]

56 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

 

Or if you are unable or unwilling to read information outside of the misinformation on this forum please read the full text of the joint statement as follows:

 

I'll make it easy. Two questions. Both can be answered with a simple Yes or a simple No.

1) Are lead pellets in avian and other game meat, shot with a shotgun, if ingested, potentially harmful to health?

2) Are lead bullet shards, in avian and other game meat, shot with a rifle, if ingested potentially harmful to health?

Edited April 14 by enfieldspares

[Konor]

42 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

Conor O'Gorman, will you please desist from making increasingly patronising posts. You frequently tell others to check their facts, but can't locate questions which you have been asked. It's unprofessional.

The only saving grace in not having Conor desist from his pompous and arrogant posts is that his limitations and character are visible to all ,he seems to forget his (convenient) failure in interpreting simple questions earlier in the thread as they didn’t fit with the agenda he’s selling I thought that experience would have instilled a little humility but apparently not.

. Given his due he is a master of copy and paste but would I trust him with protecting my best interests probably not so much

[enfieldspares]

Quote

I am not aware of any BASC letter in 2020.

This what I refer to as a letter being the exact same thing that you then quote below.

Be it a letter, statement, bulletin, press release, information update, news announcement of February 2020 is it not the same thing?

And is another's observation, drawn from reading that document, which I requote below correct or not?

Quote

Game birds shot with lead are toxic however venison shot with lead isn’t 🤔

 

Edited April 14 by enfieldspares

[Konor]

Is it not ludicrous that we are in a position where arguably the least welcome person on the forum is actually a representative of an organisation that’s aims are to protect our (shooters) best interests. 🤔
 

Edited April 14 by Konor

[Gordon R]

I actually feel sorry for him, as his limitations have been exposed.

He might be a smashing bloke, but he is really out of his comfort zone and depth.

[Sweet11-87]

6 minutes ago, Konor said:

Is it not ludicrous that we are in a position where arguably the least welcome person on the forum is actually a representative of an organisation that’s aims are to protect our (shooters) best interests. Is there a two sentence insight that can explain how that can be possible ?
 

Bit strong mate,  agreed he’s worded a few of his post different to what I’d of done but if he calls it a day on pigeon watch what’s achieved? 
 

he’s butted heads with a few people on here and resolved it in a phone call.
 

I’ve not seen anyone else from basc rock up to get involved.  Atleast he’s willing to comment. 

[Gordon R]

Quote

he’s butted heads with a few people on here and resolved it in a phone call.

Not sure about that. I can only recall negative comments about the usefulness of said phone calls.

Whilst he is willing to comment, he does not answer questions sensibly. I have said before, I feel sorry for him as detailed debate is not his strong suit.

[Weihrauch17]

23 minutes ago, Sweet11-87 said:

Bit strong mate,  agreed he’s worded a few of his post different to what I’d of done but if he calls it a day on pigeon watch what’s achieved? 
 

he’s butted heads with a few people on here and resolved it in a phone call.
 

I’ve not seen anyone else from basc rock up to get involved.  Atleast he’s willing to comment. 

The B in BASC stands for betrayal.